Search Syntax Question

Since I don't use the Sermon Builder, in order to access the Questions & Answers feature I had to do an All Search. So I did that with the search word bless, and scrolling down I find the Q&A section. When I clicked on More, it helpfully opens a new Search window performing a Books Search with the following search syntax:

answer:(topic:topic:Bless OR question:bless)

My question is: why does it have topic: twice? It looks like an error to me, but somehow the search is working fine. (Also, why is Bless capitalized in one clause and lower-cased in the second clause?)

Thanks in advance for your enlightenment.

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Justin Gatlin

I don't think tags are case sensitive, so question:bless and question:Bless will give the same results. When the tags are repeated, you can skip one. If you don't, then it doesn't

The autogenerator is a little clumsy. I think I would write it like this, for the same results, but a little more obvious:

answer:topic:bless OR answer:question:bless

Andrew Batishko

why does it have topic: twice?

The first "topic" is the name of the property on the "answer" label. This is analogous to the usage of the "question" property.

The second topic is because "topic:Bless" is a data type reference of the type "topic".

why is Bless capitalized in one clause and lower-cased in the second clause?

Datatype references are currently case sensitive, so the capital letter is required there. The "question" property does not have datatype reference values, and since it's just a raw text match, the case does not matter.

Justin Gatlin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239594#Comment_1239594

why is Bless capitalized in one clause and lower-cased in the second clause?

Andrew,

If that is the case, why do question:topic:Bless OR answer:topic:Bless and question:topic:bless OR answer:topic:bless give the same results?

Dave Hooton

answer:(topic:topic:Bless OR question:bless)

answer is a label
the first "topic" is the label attribute, just as "question" is a label attribute.
the second "topic" is the datatype for the value. As the value is plain text, "question" is not followed by a datatype name.
the value is usually case sensitive, so you will get an error with topic:topic:bless
in Logos 10, labels do not require the datatype name as that is known from the attribute. So topic:Bless will suffice.
Logos 10 introduced the "OR" operator for labels:

answer:(topic:Bless OR question:bless) is more efficient than answer:topic:Bless OR answer:question:bless

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239596#Comment_1239596

If that is the case, why do question:topic:Bless OR answer:topic:Bless and question:topic:bless OR answer:topic:bless give the same results?

1. question:topic:Bless OR answer:topic:Bless

question:topic:Bless refers to a different label called "question". And it produces zero results!

So the results come from answer:topic:Bless

2. question:topic:bless OR answer:topic:bless

Disregard question as above. This takes a long time and should not work because of the lower case "bless" in answer.

I wasn't aware that question had an attribute of "topic", so we have two anomalies for Andrew!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239606#Comment_1239606

I wasn't aware that question had an attribute of "topic"

Neither was the documentation.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239610#Comment_1239610

Thank you for all of your responses. Unfortunately this is all way above my head and sounds like Greek to me. Now I remember why I was so scared of Logos search. I guess the simplified syntax didn't really simplify the underlying structure and logic of the search complexity.

I think for now I'll stick with the system-generated search queries and stay with point and click and hope that everything just works as designed.

Bill

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239605#Comment_1239605

answer:(topic:Bless OR question:bless) is more efficient than answer:topic:Bless OR answer:question:bless

Ok, I know you probably won't agree, but this is a step backward from simplifying search syntax. Logos continually expects the average user to understand why and when to have to do things like capitalize a word like"bless" in a search. that in my opinion as a user should be completely unnecessary[8-)]

the first "topic" is the label attribute, just as "question" is a label attribute.

the second "topic" is the datatype for the value. As the value is plain text, "question" is not followed by a datatype name

Thank you for trying to explain this. However the words; label, attribute, datatype, and value are nearly meaningless to me in the context of computereze and the intersection of the search function, both as definition, and as pieces of a puzzle that are hidden beneath the search box. The problem for me is I'm not going to learn any of this quickly, It has taken me literally years to learn some things just above basic level searches.

From L7-L9 I was just starting to catch on to some of the more difficult syntax formulas because of the help in these forums and through MP Seminars search videos. In L10 I appreciate the the new search and the attempt to make searching easier without losing the ability to do the more complex searches of L9. The possible problem I see arising in L10 is it seems like the syntax for those more complex searches is changing too and now I may have to relearn the hardest part of search over again. I don't know if I have enough years left to do that[:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239660#Comment_1239660

Ok, I know you probably won't agree, but this is a step backward from simplifying search syntax. Logos continually expects the average user to understand why and when to have to do things like capitalize a word like"bless" in a search. that in my opinion as a user should be completely unnecessary

What FL has done is to assume what a term in the string is and to require special syntax/tags only when necessary for the string to be interpreted by the search engine. I personally prefer a more explicit syntax. The capitalization of the text "Bless" is done because it is necessary, not because FL wished to make the rules complex.

The possible problem I see arising in L10 is it seems like the syntax for those more complex searches is changing too and now I may have to relearn the hardest part of search over again.

Only the format is changing, not the content of the search argument. You may find it helpful to keep to the more explicit forms e.g. "label.answer" rather than "answer". Because of my computer background, I find the elimination of the WHERE (replaced by simple parens) jarring but I adjusted more quickly than I expected. If you understood your search arguments in L9, you should be able to translate it easily into L10. But if you are like me, you will find yourself randomly reverting to L9 format long after you are comfortable with L10.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239610#Comment_1239610

I wasn't aware that question had an attribute of "topic"

Neither was the documentation.

question:topic:* quickly returns a zero result, but it should have produced an error for "topic" which would have prevented the confusion above,

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239660#Comment_1239660

Logos continually expects the average user to understand why and when to have to do things like capitalize a word like"bless" in a search. that in my opinion as a user should be completely unnecessary

the words; label, attribute, datatype, and value are nearly meaningless to me in the context of computereze and the intersection of the search function, both as definition, and as pieces of a puzzle that are hidden beneath the search box.

Exactly, Bill, that's exactly how I feel. I hope Mark Barnes is reading this thread and sees our struggles with Logos search. I think he's trying to push to continue to make search simpler and more understandable / accessible to beginning / average users.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239660#Comment_1239660

Thank you for trying to explain this. However the words; label, attribute, datatype, and value are nearly meaningless to me in the context of computereze and the intersection of the search function, both as definition, and as pieces of a puzzle that are hidden beneath the search box. The problem for me is I'm not going to learn any of this quickly, It has taken me literally years to learn some things just above basic level searches.

I can understand your confusion (and that of PL). This wiki article might help because the "simplification" of L10 Search syntax does not permit ready recognition of labels when you look at someone's query, and they have been a part of Search for several previous versions of Logos.

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239596#Comment_1239596

why is Bless capitalized in one clause and lower-cased in the second clause?

Datatype references are currently case sensitive, so the capital letter is required there. The "question" property does not have datatype reference values, and since it's just a raw text match, the case does not matter.

Andrew,

If that is the case, why do question:topic:Bless OR answer:topic:Bless and question:topic:bless OR answer:topic:bless give the same results?

Because answer:topic:Bless and answer:topic:bless is not asking for a match of the reference, it's asking for a text match on the title of the references found in the "topic" attribute. This kind of match (like any text match) is prone to returning results you hadn't intended (if for example the title of some other reference included the word "bless").

Using answer:topic:topic:Bless has the benefit that it is only going to return exact matches for the specified reference in the "topic" attribute.

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239605#Comment_1239605

in Logos 10, labels do not require the datatype name as that is known from the attribute. So topic:Bless will suffice.

This is not exactly correct. It's not required, but leaving it off will mean that it's not doing a reference match, but doing a text match, which may lead to getting matches on values that you aren't expecting.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239660#Comment_1239660

Thank you for trying to explain this. However the words; label, attribute, datatype, and value are nearly meaningless to me in the context of computereze and the intersection of the search function, both as definition, and as pieces of a puzzle that are hidden beneath the search box. The problem for me is I'm not going to learn any of this quickly, It has taken me literally years to learn some things just above basic level searches.

From L7-L9 I was just starting to catch on to some of the more difficult syntax formulas because of the help in these forums and through MP Seminars search videos. In L10 I appreciate the the new search and the attempt to make searching easier without losing the ability to do the more complex searches of L9. The possible problem I see arising in L10 is it seems like the syntax for those more complex searches is changing too and now I may have to relearn the hardest part of search over again. I don't know if I have enough years left to do that

Bill... believe me I understand where you are coming from.... In other posts (L9) I argued the same argument and still do for the most part.... In L9 one had to go to the "School of Hieroglyphics" and earn a PHD in symbolisms and acronic writings of the Eqyptian Greek gods to even understand how to write a simple search request.

There are people on the forums that still want to argue to make Search even more complicated.. so they can find and "i" in any word they so choose to search for... (I think).... I never was in that camp....

I do believe Search in L10 is better.... but I whole heartly agree (and I hope other will agree) that Search needs more work. I detest the idea of having to go back to earn a PHD just to try to find something in the books I have in Logos. While not used in Logos Books.... We don't have to earn any kind of degree to use Google Search or Ultra Search or many other searches..... but with Logos... it seems the people with the PHDs and the people that want to find the "i" in any word they so choose ... have the many ear of Logos and get their way..... and those of us that just want to find something quick and easy.... are left out.

That's my rant about that! No offense meant! [8-|]

Edit: One suggestion I suggest in some of my L9 forum arguments was to have more search templates.... Seems to me at least, search templates make things a bit more simpler.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239905#Comment_1239905

in Logos 10, labels do not require the datatype name as that is known from the attribute. So topic:Bless will suffice.

This is not exactly correct. It's not required, but leaving it off will mean that it's not doing a reference match, but doing a text match, which may lead to getting matches on values that you aren't expecting.

Thanks, Andrew.

agent:Peter could match agent:person:"John (father of Peter)"

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1239958#Comment_1239958

agent:Peter could match agent:person:"John (father of Peter)"

Yup. Thanks for the example. I didn't have one off the top of my head.