Vista Installation Problem/Concern L4B2

Here's what I tried to do:

I used the DVD to install L4B1 on my Dell Studio, running 64bit Vista Home Premium, with 4gb RAM. Aside from the reported issues with B1, L4 ran quite well on the Studio.

Then, when L4B2 arrived, I applied the update to my XP/Pro machines and decided to change over to my wife's profile on my Studio and run L4B2 from her profile.

That's when I ran into my first problem. First, I could not find L4 on the machine. It wasn't where I expected to find it (C:\Program Files) instead it was in some obsure folder for Dale\Application Data (which meant that it wasn't immediately and transparently available for all users on that computer).

Once I finally found L4B1 in my wife's profile, I created a quick launch icon on the desktop and invoked the application. The L4B1 started up, but there was no lectionary, not on the task bar where I had put it, and not even on the home page. Not that it wasn't the UMRCL, there was no lectionary available anywhere, not even clicking on Library.

I found an icon on the systray that said there was an update to install, and I invoked that icon. Once the update took effect, I launched L4B2. I got a dialog box on my screen that said it was preparing my library and that it might take a *LONG* time. Beloved friends, that was perhaps the understatement of the year. I've waited to report on this issue partly because I was out of town on Tuesday and again on Thursday of this week, but primarily because I needed to wait until that button finally cleared off the computer and I could get back into the program.

After having L4B1 running on the Studio machine (again, 64 bit Vista with 4gb of RAM) then launching it under my wife's profile (rather than mine) -- taking a LONG time meant over 72 hours. We never shut the machine off -- it just kept churning away for over three days saying it was setting up my libary. Friends, that's totally unacceptable. There should only be one database on the computer, and L4 ought to find that one data base of resources and run with it.

There shouldn't be missing resouces just because I'm running under a different profile, and it certainly shouldn't take it 3 days plus to get the library up and running.

Next was indexing -- once L4B2 did start, there was still no lectionary -- again, not on the Homepage and not on the taskbar where I had placed an icon. But, somewhere betwen 24 and 36 hours later, indexing was complete. The only thing (at this point) that I can confirm was that as I left the house this morning, it did look like I had a lectionary associated with the icon on the task bar.

But, I'm at work, the Studio is home with my wife, and I'll have to continue testing this weekend.

Dale

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George Allakhverdyan

After having L4B1 running on the Studio machine (again, 64 bit Vista with 4gb of RAM) then launching it under my wife's profile (rather than mine) -- taking a LONG time meant over 72 hours. We never shut the machine off -- it just kept churning away for over three days saying it was setting up my libary. Friends, that's totally unacceptable. There should only be one database on the computer, and L4 ought to find that one data base of resources and run with it.

There shouldn't be missing resouces just because I'm running under a different profile, and it certainly shouldn't take it 3 days plus to get the library up and running.

Hi Rev Dale, thanks for the suggestion and the tests. This indexing process is under review and we are trying to figure out the optimal solution, it really is a difficult task. As for the per profile thing, I believe this is how it is supposed to work, which is an opportune time for us to consider how we can address this, maybe add an option during installation or in the program settings that would allow discovery across all user profiles, then however we run into a problem if each user profile is protected. I know though, the release versions installation will give you a choice of where you want to install it (along with your program the resources and data will go there as well), this may work but it may also create complications. The EULA states it is only for one user, so when I get a chance I will definitely test this situation. However I can't guarantee that it will even work.

Dale Durnell, Retired UM Clergy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12054#Comment_12054

Morning George --

I understand the concern about the EULA and installation on computers for more than one user. But, let's consider a computer lab in a seminary libary. There is a single computer, it's accessed by perhaps 50 students, but there's a generic login, and so everyone accessing the computer then has access to the resources on that computer. Is that then a violation of the EULA? It's not loaded on multiple machines, and (unless the resources are on a server with multiple computers running the same license) there's only one iteration of the application running at the same time.

Contrast that, then, with a personal laptop computer. Whether I let my wife use my profile on the laptop (or even my desktop) or she logs in on her profile (and *THE ONLY* reason we've got separate profiles is so her email doesn't get co-mingled with mine in Outlook, and so she and I can both login to Facebook and stay logged in) shouldn't matter. If she's using my (our) laptop, then obviously I'm not because the application is being used by one user at a time. So, it really shouldn't matter if she's logged in as Donna or on my profile.

I have seen other apps (and have installed several on my computers) that ask if this application is for me (as the one installing it) or for anyone using the computer. Again, I understand where this might be a problem for installation on a public computer. And, I don't know what you do or how you handle "family" computers.

Thanks for letting me be part of this process --

Dale

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12071#Comment_12071

I have seen other apps (and have installed several on my computers) that ask if this application is for me (as the one installing it) or for anyone using the computer. Again, I understand where this might be a problem for installation on a public computer. And, I don't know what you do or how you handle "family" computers.

Logos 4 Beta 2 is designed as a per-user application. (The only reason the installer will ever need admin rights, if you're wondering why it prompted for elevation, is to install the .NET Framework, or system-wide fonts.) It does not publish itself to other users' accounts on the same machine once it is installed.

To use it by two separate users on the same computer, you will need to install it under both accounts. And note that it will sync settings, documents, history, etc. between those two accounts (assuming that you log in with the same logos.com account on both Windows accounts).

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12076#Comment_12076

Logos 4 Beta 2 is designed as a per-user application. (The only reason the installer will ever need admin rights, if you're wondering why it prompted for elevation, is to install the .NET Framework, or system-wide fonts.) It does not publish itself to other users' accounts on the same machine once it is installed.

Is the EULA part of the NDA (sorry to be lazy about this)?

But I had concerns about the implication for installation to a user account:-

it's great for beta test as no elevation issues in Vista/Win7
it's not good for sharing amongst users
the main issue for v3 was storing resources in the Program Files folder

So will production v4 be (optionally) shared amongst user accounts? Where will the software be installed?

Dale Durnell, Retired UM Clergy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12076#Comment_12076

To use it by two separate users on the same computer, you will need to install it under both accounts. And note that it will sync settings, documents, history, etc. between those two accounts (assuming that you log in with the same logos.com account on both Windows accounts).

Well, I certainly didn't install L4B2 under both accounts. I simply used my wife's profile, then went to the folder where my application was installed, and invoked the executable file. Of course, it logged in using my account, but then we (as a family) only have one account. Now, my daughter has her own account on her home computer, but here in the household, and for me at the office, there is only one account and that's the one that was logging in when I used my wife's profile.

Now then, if it wasn't supposed to launch that way, well then, that's a horse of different color and a whole 'nother issue for the Beta team to deal with [8-|]

Dale

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12194#Comment_12194

This is a "can't win" problem. People use account profiles for dramatically different reasons. In business environment (for which they were really intended) each different login may represent completely different users, with different application, setting, and data needs. (And a desire for privacy within one user account.)

Some apps add code (and a lot of complexity) to allow you to choose a per-user or "for all users" installation. Then they keep the user data separate from program data. They also require privileges elevation for installation, updates, etc. This works great when the installation really would be identical for each users, and all that differs are some settings and your documents.

We wanted to avoid access control requests during installation (and, more importantly, during the frequent background updates). Our app is also unusual in that it consists of code, user-files, and resources -- which are in the middle. They're like code in that they're static, large, and could be shared by multiple users. But they're like user data in that each licensed user has a slightly different collection, and we need to index each collection uniquely, etc.

Since Logos 4 requires a login with a unique user identity, and a unique user identity happens to be what a Windows user account is, we decided it would be much easier to install in the user profile. This also supports a church (or home) computer shared by two people who WANT separate Logos accounts, profiles, settings (and resource collections). And makes installation and updating easier.

Dale Durnell, Retired UM Clergy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12342#Comment_12342

This is a "can't win" problem. People use account profiles for dramatically different reasons. In business environment (for which they were really intended) each different login may represent completely different users, with different application, setting, and data needs. (And a desire for privacy within one user account.)

Some apps add code (and a lot of complexity) to allow you to choose a per-user or "for all users" installation. Then they keep the user data separate from program data. They also require privileges elevation for installation, updates, etc. This works great when the installation really would be identical for each users, and all that differs are some settings and your documents.

We wanted to avoid access control requests during installation (and, more importantly, during the frequent background updates). Our app is also unusual in that it consists of code, user-files, and resources -- which are in the middle. They're like code in that they're static, large, and could be shared by multiple users. But they're like user data in that each licensed user has a slightly different collection, and we need to index each collection uniquely, etc.

Since Logos 4 requires a login with a unique user identity, and a unique user identity happens to be what a Windows user account is, we decided it would be much easier to install in the user profile. This also supports a church (or home) computer shared by two people who WANT separate Logos accounts, profiles, settings (and resource collections). And makes installation and updating easier.

Hi Bob,

I *REALLY* do understand -- one of the roles I've found myself in as a beta tester over the years was to try something that a normal user wouldn't do -- hey, anybody can do the basic stuff -- it's that weird stuff, the things the programmer never intended (had a programming prof years ago who said as a programmer we were to protect the program from the user and at the same time protect the user from the program). I always thought that was a great philosophy.

So, while I really don't expect many spouses to be using a different windows profile to access the same account, I figured I needed to try it and see what happened. Three days of waiting to get the library ready was what I found. Ergo -- don't do that!!

At the same time, I bought the church I was pastoring until this past June a copy of Logos Series X (one of the boxed sets). It resided on the secretary's machine. And, although I had my own computer in the next office, the secretary used the church's account, and I used mine. Had we shared the same computer, I would certainly not been willing to allow everyone one the secretary's machine to have access to my full library. And, when I moved to a new appointment (in United Methodist parlance) I took my license with me, and left no remnants of my library on anyone's computer back on the other side of the state.

Blessings to you all

Dale

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