Tradeoffs

I've been using 4.0 for a few months now and like how Logos 4 brings a lot of research together pretty quickly. I appreciate that there are new titles being added to the library. But I am not sure if I want to purchase additional titles this way. Here's why:

Computers, readers/viewers, platforms, et cetera keep changing so fast that I am concerned my Logos library may one day be obsolete in the sense that I can no longer view it (at least easily). Your response may well be that you will constantly update the product to run on newer hardware. But companies do not stay in business forever.

The books on my shelves are not going to go out of date in the sense that I need new hardware to read them.—other than the increasingly frequent need to upgrade my glasses.

I am almost ready to start buying Logos titles to read and not purchase books anymore. There are just two things holding me back: [1] fear of losing the books to evolving technology and [2] titles not being as widely available in this format as they are in print.

Does anyone else have some thoughts on my concerns?

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Comments

Robert Pavich

Well, we are all different and currently I don't share your concern.

The future is uncertain and we all know that so if what you are looking for is 100% certainty, then it ain't gonna happen.

Logos has been around 15 years, it's still possible to run the first version of their software if you feel the need...so...I'm going to roll the dice and say that these resources will be here as long as I need them and that they'll hold up as well as any company will...(being that I'm 50...I don't expect much more than 25 or 30 more years....)

On the other hand, I've lost my share of paper books, I've ruined paper books, etc, so in my mind, it's a trade off and they are similar in that regard.

If every book I needed was available in Logos format....I'd never buy a paper book again. [:D]

Paul Buckhiester

Mark,

The major difference between paper and digital is the ability to search the digital. In that regard there is really no comparison. It is one thing to own a book, but quite another to be able to effectively use it.

Paul

Mark E. Ryman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126353#Comment_126353

You say it's a "trade off," huh?

Kevin Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126353#Comment_126353

With all due respect I also do not share this concern in the least. First, as much as I am fond of print books they will never update at all, typos will remain, fonts will never modernize. What I have purchased will only continue to get older and become a space liability in my living area. They can also be stolen, damaged in a fire or flood or lost.

Logos has been around for 15 years and has more than 500,000 users from my understanding. That alone combined with the number of titles and publishers commited to the Logos format means that someone will always be there to make the format readable even IF they go out of business [which is unlikely based on the successes they have had].

While I still buy print books for certain titles I can't help but feel that I am "losing" when I do. Print titles won't grant me the ability to index them and find relevant content in mere seconds. As for portability issues, what is more portable than a laptop or net book running Logos 4 with THOUSANDS of books rather than the one or 2 you could shove in that same backpack? Ever try doing a research project with 3 x 5 cards and a stack of reference books? Yikes.... Never again for me.

Also, the fact that your notes, highlights and favorites are saved safely for you to access on any PC you own and hve Logos 4 installed on. It would be difficult for me to summon data from a resource I own at home in my print library when I am on the go or at the office. Logos 4 puts that book in my hand immediately along with the thousands of others I may not need at that moment.

Ever try moving with a large print library? The last time I moved [Dec '09] I was praying for the rapture during the move due to the endless unloading of print books I owe. Thanks Logos 4... you could have invented this stuff years before I bought these print books LOL.

Print books are classic, they are collectible and just plain fun at times. Logos 4 on my laptop, priceless...

Just my 2 cents....

William

Right now I feel like I am just parroting what the other users have stated. However, I will add my thoughts with the hope that they are new and important topics.

Concerning the idea that Logos is going to die as a company....I would really doubt that. Right now, I think they have about 200 employee's. I see staff being cut from that to much lower levels before a closing of the doors (likely not to happen) They are looking for programmers and the like currently. They have just bought a new bigger building.

The idea that things will become obselete is possible but let's consider.....If you are buying and keeping up with product you won't be left behind. Concerning the Hardware...You must do that regardless. Try to run windows7 on a 386 machine...Not! I am using a laptop that is 6+ years old with 1gb ram and a video card with 128 mb. L4 platinum + works fine just slow. However, this slow is by no means "slow" compared to opening 15 books right to the page that I want to read. Things really change depending on the search type that I run.

I originally bought Logos on the order of 13 years ago. I used it in spurts for the first 12 years. I always did the minimum upgrades then finally in L4 I have gone "WILD!!!!" There was even a point in the 12 years that I had to start over from scratch. I even lost my disks on a move. I had your feelings of things being a lost cause! Well, as I remember it, I paid 5 bucks or so for replacement disks and everything was go again. I have lost no books in the years. If not from my records, Logos, has my purchases on their system.

Again with the hardware, I have always done this.....buy the best I could afford every 5 years or so and I have always been near the top of the scales with my software purchases. When I was first purchasing computer systems it seems like I was spending near to 3000 dollars. Now a really nice AMD quad core 1GB video, 8GB ram and a 27' monitor was only 1500.

There are pleny of users of logos that can be kept up for years after Logos (God forbid) were to die. I have an old Commodore 64 that still plays my "Pachel Bells" program to this day. Well, that's all for now.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126393#Comment_126393

The eternal hope of high brand identity is that what is now will always be. I wonder though as the e-book market and Logos converge on multi platform e-book readers if the belief that Logos will always be is a bit of a best scenario view. For example Kindle purchases Quickverse, adds a few more programmers, imports tons of new books into the format, improves the interface with all kinds of pretty bells what happens then? Technology and market forces may make what seems like a sure thing mere smoke int he future.

Rosie Perera

I am almost ready to start buying Logos titles to read and not purchase books anymore. There are just two things holding me back: [1] fear of losing the books to evolving technology and [2] titles not being as widely available in this format as they are in print.

Does anyone else have some thoughts on my concerns?

Why does it have to be either/or? I don't view the shift to digital books as such an abrupt thing as the changeover to digital photography was. Once I bought a digital camera, I never shot another roll of film. I still have the old film-based camera (for "just in case" I suppose) but I doubt I will ever use it again now that I've experienced the benefits of digital. Also I suspect the "support" for books won't die as quickly as film is dying as a medium. (Essentially none is required, except the selling of bookshelves; you can always build your own even if Ikea stops selling them.)

Am I worried that I will lose the ability to view my digital photos one day, whereas my print-based ones are secure? Not a chance. Imaging is so important to the world, that there is no way new computers will be developed without the ability to read in old formats of images. Even if something more super-duper than JPG and PNG and TIFF and all of the existing formats comes out, there will always be software that can read the old stuff and convert it to the new stuff if I so desire.

Digital books will never go away either. Formats might change, but there will be converters. Logos is creating a significant following among publishers, and Logos as a company is very well positioned to stay solvent in the world of digital publishing for decades. Its disappearance is probably not something any of us has to worry about. If Bob Pritchett and family tire of running it, the company will be a valuable asset and will likely be bought by one of the Christian publishing companies. Logos books will be readable on into the future.

One of the great things about Logos books is that every new version of Logos can read the old format books from previous versions. And the upgrade process converts them all over to the new format when format improvements warrant it. So your purchases won't be a waste of money.

Even so, it will be a long time before I will completely stop buying print-based books, if I ever do. There are certain types of books that I never envision wanting to read on the computer. Devotional literature, primarily. I don't need to go searching through it to do research, or highlighting it or making notes in it. It's the kind of stuff I want to savor slowly in the comfort and serenity of my prayer room, not in front of a screen. Poetry is another genre I don't envision buying in digital form, for much the same reason.

There's also the value of old classics in hardcover or first editions in leather even. Something that can't be replicated by digital books.

It also takes a while for books to come out in Logos format after they are published. There are times when I simply can't wait. I recently bought N.T. Wright's much-touted Justification in paperback to find out what all the hooplah is about the "new perspective on Paul" and why Piper and his followers are so incensed about Wright and what he has to say for himself. I couldn't wait. If I own a book in print form it doesn't mean I might not also buy it in Logos when it comes out in Logos form (just as I bought CD versions of many of my old favorite LP albums).

Michael G. Halpern

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126407#Comment_126407

For example Kindle purchases Quickverse, adds a few more programmers, imports tons of new books into the format, improves the interface with all kinds of pretty bells what happens then?

Always the encouraging one (based on numerous other posts I've read as well). And Christ may return tomorrow too...which is a guarantee (that He'll be returning some day). I'd stake my bet on His return over the K purchase of QV. I think the other responses are fair and balanced...if you want the highest odds that your resources will last a lifetime, go with books (dead tree); if you want all the other benefits, stick with Logos. Life has it's risks...I'll continue to look to Jesus for any guarantees and take my chances with the things of this world...and the people down here too. [:)]

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126366#Comment_126366

Ever try moving with a large print library?

Ever try taking your print library to the coffee shop? Pack all the boxes, carry them to the car; unload them; and then you find that the store is crowded and there are no extra tables to spread your books out on.[:P] Much easier to have my library on my laptop.

Seriously, I have been able to do more with bible study in L4 than I have ever been able to do with printed books. I also like that my entire library is stored on the Logos server. I my house burns down, gets hit by a tornado, or some other disaster finds its way to my computer; I simply have to get another machine and after a few hours of downloading and indexing [:(], I can pick up where I left off.

A few years ago the church a friend of mine has been pastor of for nearly 30 years burned to the ground. He lost his entire library and all of his files of notes, sermons, everything. With the exception of a few books he really wanted to have on his shelf again, he converted to a digital library.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126421#Comment_126421

Only tim

For example Kindle purchases Quickverse, adds a few more programmers, imports tons of new books into the format, improves the interface with all kinds of pretty bells what happens then?

Always the encouraging one (based on numerous other posts I've read as well). And Christ may return tomorrow too...which is a guarantee (that He'll be returning some day). I'd stake my bet on His return over the K purchase of QV. I think the other responses are fair and balanced...if you want the highest odds that your resources will last a lifetime, go with books (dead tree); if you want all the other benefits, stick with Logos. Life has it's risks...I'll continue to look to Jesus for any guarantees and take my chances with the things of this world...and the people down here too.

Only time and reality will determine the outcome of the ebook battles. Faith that L will or can remain the dominate player in a changing market is a hope not an observation. It isn't a requirement to be either fair or balance in cyber world postings..I too will take my chances with things in this world. Diversity of investment is the best advice I hear about the market but that too maybe an illusion.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126407#Comment_126407

Kindle purchases [deleted] adds a few more programmers, imports tons of new books into the format, improves the interface with all kinds of pretty bells what happens then?

Okay, time to bring out the megaphones - what part of not using competitors' names due to search engine concerns do you not understand? I really don't like to repeat myself and feel like a nag.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126452#Comment_126452

I really don't like to repeat
myself and feel like a nag.

But midst the crowd, the hum, the shock of men,

To hear, to see, to feel, and to possess,

And roam along, the world's tired denizen,

With none who bless us, none whom we can bless. ~ Byron

Mike Childs

I can only judge by past experience. I went with Logos from the beginnng. I had the old CDWORD product from Dallas Theological Seminary, and its rights were sold to Logos (as I understand it.) I was offered a very good price to upgrade from CDWORD to Logos. I think that was more than 15 years ago.

I know that even resources which I bought way back then are still available to me in Logos 4. I haven't lost a thing in all those years. I don't expect to lose any resources in the future.

Logos has more than proven themselves to me.

You could always have a fire, and lose all your paper books. If I had a fire, Logos still has a record of all my licenses. Paper books also wear out - especially if frequently used. I have worn out many study Bibles, but I have never worn out a Logos resource.

I would say your Logos resources are far safer than your books. I'd worry more about the future of your paper books.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126417#Comment_126417

Digital books will never go away either. Formats might change, but there will be converters.

Rosie,

I must disagree with you on this one!

Your digital photos are encoded (JPEG etc), but not encrypted. Yes - I expect there will always be converters.

For digital books, the contents with be encoded (some kind of file format), but also encrypted (content-use control)!!!

I do not know, but I expect the *.logos4 resources are all encrypted with some kind(s) of security keys. Only if you have an application that undestands the format, AND access to the decrypt keys, can it be anything other than a meaningless bunch of random bytes.

IF Logos the company stopped trading, you books only last as long as you have a working application, AND a valid license file or unlock keys.

Logos could not, would not, just hand over the master decrypt keys on their last day, just before turning off the lights and the last server. The content does not belong to the Logos company in many cases.

We need to enjoy our digital books, knowning that its possible, one day it all stops, and we could lose our resources.

Who knows what furture laws about digital copyright, and customer rights on access to licensed purchases might change. Maybe in some future time, there will be a 100%-sure global system managing digital rights. And just maybe, Logos will transfer our license records into that master system.

And just maybe, some will not want to submit to the system, where no man could buy or sell without the mark.

OK - too far. Just saying, all we know is now. And trust God for the future.

For now, I intend to enjoy and use my resources I have licensed from Logos.

Mark E. Ryman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126417#Comment_126417

[quote]

Why does it have to be either/or?

It doesn't. And it isn't. I have Logos 4.0 and a print library too. But do I want to go the considerable expense of putting the commentary sets that i really use onto Logos—particularly considering the tech concerns? Sure, the ease of transport and search are great. But reading this way is tougher and very costly and then, there is that pesky concern for me of keeping up with the technology (and having a library that hands down to my seminary or kids or some Timothy in my church.

[quote]

Am I worried that I will lose the ability to view my digital photos
one day, whereas my print-based ones are secure?

Yes, I am. I already have digital photos that have been lost to disks and hard drives because I have so much data and it has proven a huge task to keep transferring it to the latest storage device. 3¼ floppies are gone. When will CDs and DVDs disappear? I fear that is right around the corner. However, in the Logos case, this is handled as they keep it on file for me to use in whatever format comes along. Would that I could do the same with my digital photos. I backed up over 50,000 image and audio files this week. That is going to get tougher—the sheer volume continuing to rise for me and the need to transfer the sum to the latest storage..not to mention possible format changes in the future.

[quote]

Digital books will never go away either. Formats might change, but
there will be converters.

I hope that is true. But in my case, I have a sizable Libronix library that I have not been able to convert so far.

[quote]

One of the great things about Logos books is that every new version
of Logos can read the old format books from previous versions. And the
upgrade process converts them all over to the new format when format
improvements warrant it. So your purchases won't be a waste of money.

It's the time figuring out how to convert and actually doing it that concerns me. I don't have to convert books. And to your earlier point, I love to build shelves. [;)]

[quote]

Even so, it will be a long time before I will completely stop buying
print-based books, if I ever do. There are certain types of books that I
never envision wanting to read on the computer. Devotional literature,
primarily. I don't need to go searching through it to do research, or
highlighting it or making notes in it. It's the kind of stuff I want to
savor slowly in the comfort and serenity of my prayer room, not in front
of a screen. Poetry is another genre I don't envision buying in digital
form, for much the same reason.

There's also the value of old classics in hardcover or first editions
in leather even. Something that can't be replicated by digital books.

For me, this is the best comment so far. Perhaps being more decisive about which books to have on my shelves is the question for me to answer. This really does help me think about what to do. Thank you, Rosie. The books on my shelves are part of my house and home. They are art on the walls. I don't want that to go away. Perhaps I should be more picky about what art is actually there. And be more technical and portable and high-speed in terms of vocational literature.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126587#Comment_126587

Mark you can backup your digital photos online via one of many free sites. It the library is large, open a second account. Purchase a domain name, and upload your resources there as a backup. Just do not publish a website.

You do not have to convert the books. Software companies will do that if Logos goes out of business.

Been with the company since 2004, and waiting for the day when a Phd student, can conduct all research necessary for a full fledged dissertation, via Logos. Yes I know. Logos is well on its way to accomplishing that goal.

Siggggggggghhhhhhhhh! [:(] Waiting for my rich uncle who does not exist to leave me a couple thousand dollars, so that I can purchase the academic http://www.logos.com/products/groups/allitems/academic resources that are currently available.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126608#Comment_126608

Want cheap easy backup?

Send it all to your gmail account. 8GB for free each account

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126611#Comment_126611

Trade offs?

I've been accumulating a pretty good library for over 40 years. On most books of the Bible, I have more commentaries than I can ever use.

But, when I began using Logos about 2 1/2 yrs ago, I had a paradigm shift. I now am able to (and do) really use far more volumes on any particular book of the Bible than I ever was before. Logos quickly locates the info that I am looking for.

I am now at the point that I am ready to start selling off my print library of titles that I have in Logos. They are now sitting on my shelves (and floor) unused.

I have actually discovered great treasures in titles in Logos that sat unused on my shelves in print form for decades.

Jarred Edgecombe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126353#Comment_126353

If every book I needed was available in Logos format....I'd never buy a paper book again.

I'm with you there. It has become so bad, that I almost lament having to buy paper books. Pretty bad, huh? [:)]

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/127019#Comment_127019

Pretty bad, huh?

Not to me Jarred. I go through this everytime I want to by a book from Barnes and Noble or Borders. I see a religious book and wonder if I could wait for Logos. I never come up with the good argument for "I need it now."