Where Logos is Headed
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MJ. Smith said:
A serious question for Al, DMB, Scooter, and xnman: I don't have one of the free or basic levels of Logos installed so I can't see what Logos looks like/performs like with a package < $250. I agree that when one gets into the paid features, one quickly gets into complexity that those not comfortable with, e.g. Word, find intimidating. But would your description of the problem change if you looked only at the free engine and a handful of resources that stay under $250?
I do not know what is in the free engine off the top of my head. The free engine would allow me to what? Read: yes. Look up: I would need. Learn: search, look up, study all mean the same to me, but I could figure them out if they were intuitive.
But, really, I prob. don't need look up stuff much, only sometimes.
I use Logos for the books I can read. I hi-lite [dunno how to later sort], write a few notes [but don't know how to put them anywhere to sort].
>>>MJ, here's one. I hi-lite 'colours.' I hit Look Up. Rig takes me to Brown in New Unger Bible Dictionary. This definition says at end: see Color.
The question is why didn't it take me to Color right away.
Will the rig ever take me to my Logos Oxford Dictionary?
Probably I have to prioritize my books. Here we go into the morass.
So, yes, coming on-stream now, a <250USD gizmo would be the way to go. Then I would buy books.
Thanks for the question, MJ.
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MJ. Smith said:
Or put another way, if you spend > $1500 on your software, shouldn't you expect to have to put effort into learning to use it?
I think you miss the issue? In retailing, the key question is, would you recommend it (and by extension, to who personally, not 'people'). All other questions are correlated against that ... your reputation to your friends.
Would I recommend Logos ... no. Not in the 15 years I've used it. Olivetree yes. Accordance, yes. Largely ease of use, and price (not just the 1st bill).
Now, pastor and academic geeks ... well, sure. Like me!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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xnman said:
I do think the prices are high.... but I don't know how much I would charge in the same set of circumstances.... so... I pay for what I think I need...
And last.... I came from WordSearch.... which is no longer around.... maybe because they were too cheap?
Your points are well taken.
I don't intend to be critical of the price Faithlife/Logos or any other company charges, or of the nature of the product (complexity, in this case). They are in the business of selling something to someone(s). The purpose of my comment here was to point out that the nature and direction of Logos in both cost and complexity seems at significant odds with the goals Vic shared in the first post, of aiding Believers everywhere.
It is great, and has significant value to offer software that can do huge amounts of things with Scripture. However, as a pastor, I quit recommending it to people in the congregation nearly 25 years ago, and quit recommending it to missionaries and foreign pastors shortly after.
It is great software for some scholars, but I believe that less than half the pastors I know would say they have tried Logos and find it wholly unuseful for them.
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DMB said:
I think you miss the issue? In retailing, the key question is, would you recommend it (and by extension, to who personally, not 'people').
Fortunately, I'm not in retailing ... and yes, I have recommended Verbum to my friends but not as a program for the masses. I am still personally devoted to paper as my mode for Bible study for spiritual growth ... and to the necessity of art, quiet, incense . . . I prefer to study the Word of God surrounded by the Word of God ... think of the Word on Fire Bible as what I recommend for the masses. The Word on Fire Bible. I do, occasionally, have reason to recommend Verbum/Logos for Bible classes to encourage participation from those who can't physically gather but they need only the most minimum package.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Fortunately, I'm not in retailing ....
The problem in retailing (or FL, re-selling) is you need a steady stream of customer purchasing. Payroll. And you don't need your people filtering customers, unnecessarily. (Reaching for 'masses' is a separate business model.)
MJ. Smith said:.... and yes, I have recommended Verbum to my friends ...
Successfuly? How many, over 20 years (or per year, a retailing metric)?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
I agree that when one gets into the paid features, one quickly gets into complexity that those not comfortable with, e.g. Word, find intimidating. But would your description of the problem change if you looked only at the free engine and a handful of resources that stay under $250?
I appreciate your question, MJ. I hadn't looked at the base packages for more than a decade, and so I just took a quick look. The base package has one modern Bible translation (the ESV) that the majority of my congregation would have heard of. It has a solid single volume commentary on the whole Bible, and a decent though basic Bible dictionary. I don't see much more there that I would specifically recommend as part of a package, that would be more useful because it is part of a Bible program. That is $300. And, they would have to figure out how to use those, which most could, but it would be time consuming for such a basic set.
MJ. Smith said:Or put another way, if you spend > $1500 on your software, shouldn't you expect to have to put effort into learning to use it?
That's exactly my point. The vast majority of people willing to spend >$1,500 on Bible software are probably getting software that is very helpful for them. That has become the market Logos has targeted, and that is great. However, I don't believe that this is particularly consistent with "empowering Believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study..."
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
So, as Logos moves forward, I think they just need to continue to keep real about who they are reaching. They might not meet the hard core language people, but they will likely not reach the free or next to free basic english packages out there. That is ok. We need different kinds of products for each of these use cases!
I agree. That was sort of my point. It just seems inconsistent with the stated goal in the first post about helping all believers everywhere.
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Sorry about the multiple replies. Not sure how better to respond to a few different posts in one.
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Brian W. Davidson said:
Any discussion of price has to consider the difference between "Bible software" and "an electronic library."
Yes to this. And we should also distinguish the differences in the market today. The target "new" customer is far more likely to be someone who just wants a Bible on their phone or tablet. They want to be able to do simple things easily. Look up a verse reference. Search for a verse etc. Listen to audio Bible. If the initial experience here is bad, there will not likely be a second chance. They will simply move on to the next in a long list of options.
How much can you charge the new customer for the mobile app that does everything they want to do, and does it well? Well the going rate in the marketplace seems to be around $zero. If I like the ESV for example, I can download Crossways own ESV app. It does all the basic features. And it also reads audio to you as you follow the text. All for free. You can upgrade to the ESV study Bible for a small price.
Can the Logos mobile app do that? Well yes it can ... with the ESV the audio is included on Logos. But there are still a lot of features in Logos that work in the desktop version, but not in the mobile versions. (like the same feature with a Greek text).
I am not complaining, I think overall Logos has the best mobile app. Certainly better than their main competition. But they should not sit still on this.
The line between "desktop" and "mobile" may not be as clear in the future as it has been in the past. There is speculation in the apple world that the iPad Pro might one day be running the full macOS, rather than iOS. The two systems seem to get more alike in function and appearance with every update. And they both run on the same processor now.
The main difference seems to be the existence (or lack of) a physical keyboard. Without a keyboard, how do you do a complex search? What would Siri say if you asked her to find all the verses in the Bible that talked about "goats"? I think the Siri on my phone would be utterly clueless and give me a list of website hits. Can the Logos mobile app make Siri a lot smarter? I'm very certain it could. And if it could, Logos would own that entry level mobile market.
A true natural language search would not require a keyboard now would it?
Unlike much of the speculation, I see AI being used to improve the interface more than replacing the brain of the humans.
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I’ve been playing with the filament Bible lately and it is very easy to use with decent maps. Logos is great for power users and academics but to the general public very confusing. Also as DAL said, graphics are terrible. It is sad that i usually go elsewhere to find graphics and maps but I’ve given used to it
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John said:
The target "new" customer is far more likely to be someone who just wants a Bible on their phone or tablet
Are you sure? I tend to know people in a variety of traditions who are looking for daily prayer/word of the day type applications (think Anabaptists through intentional communities through the liturgical churches) integrated with their Bible reading application. And within my own tradition, thanks to Pope Francis, I see more demand for the arts integrated into Bible study (Pope Francis is a proponent of the way of beauty as a spiritual discipline.)
John said:A true natural language search would not require a keyboard now would it?
depends on how much you wish to reach the non-native speaker group.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
depends on how much you wish to reach the non-native speaker group.
Not sure what your point is here. Did you mean non-English speakers?
Siri does have different language options. But I think the vast majority of Logos resources are for English speakers and readers.
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John said:
But I think the vast majority of Logos resources are for English speakers and readers.
Which is exactly why many are using English rather than their native tongue.
Not sure but Pope Francis takes an urgent phone call during his weekly general audience - MarketWatchJohn said:Does Francis use Android or iOS?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mattillo said:
I’ve been playing with the filament Bible lately and it is very easy to use with decent maps. Logos is great for power users and academics but to the general public very confusing. Also as DAL said, graphics are terrible. It is sad that i usually go elsewhere to find graphics and maps but I’ve given used to it
To a certain degree, the Faithlife App could have been one of these very approachable free apps, ‘powered by the Logos Bible Study Platform’. Simple, potent, easy to use and visually impactful for maps and graphics with preset resources. For more advanced users, then there is the more sophisticated offering in the Logos app. To be fair, the current Logos mobile app is arguably the best in class for its target audience.
The challenge I saw with a friend who bought Logos is that there were two continuums of learning. One was the software. He did not have the drive to learn the software. Even after many years of using Logos I still discover new ways of using it with my studies. It is a world class piece of software if you take the time to learn to use it and continue to learn. The second is how to study using the resources contained in it. I think Logos mobile Ed helps with this, but there are still gaps with many materials that are written assuming you are in a classroom. If you are self learning, you don’t know where to start and what is the value of some of your resources that you picked up in a bundle
For example, Greek Grammars. I think Danny Zacharias’ “Biblical Greek Made Simple’ is a great example. Danny has written the grammar assuming you are using Logos and even gives you Greek exercises on applying the current lesson. This is really useful for self learning. Other Grammars I have used are software platform agnostic, leaving you to not only try to understand the topic, but then also learn how to use this expensive piece of software to apply the lesson.
Since Logos has Lexham as a publisher, I think it would be worth exploring approaching some authors on key materials to produce Logos editions of their text books. For that matter,I sometimes think that Logos mobile Ed could be more optimized to leverage the platform with searches, surveys of topics, etc., encouraging the user to now open Factbook and read materials in their library on a topic, or explore the different senses of a word, etc.
Last, in terms of positioning the product towards a more general market, I have often wondered if Logos should give Mobile Ed away for free. Most of the courses I have taken require you to have a large library and even as large as my library is, I wind up buying at least a few more books.
With all this said, in my use case I love Logos Bible Software. It does things that I dreamed or never dreamed we would ever be able to do. I recognize though that what I and others on these forums want, is not only the Faithlife approachable app. We want to do some serious study. I do hope for some serious mapping and graphics, yet to the point made on this thread, a lot of my friends want something more approachable and inexpensive.
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MJ. Smith said:
A serious question for Al, DMB, Scooter, and xnman: I don't have one of the free or basic levels of Logos installed so I can't see what Logos looks like/performs like with a package < $250. I agree that when one gets into the paid features, one quickly gets into complexity that those not comfortable with, e.g. Word, find intimidating. But would your description of the problem change if you looked only at the free engine and a handful of resources that stay under $250?
Or put another way, if you spend > $1500 on your software, shouldn't you expect to have to put effort into learning to use it?
No! When I buy a vehicle, I expect the newer models to have more bells and whistles than my older model. I don't mind spending a small amount of time learning the new bells and whistles, but I would never buy a vehicle that I have to "learn how to use" every time I want to go somewhere. If it's that complex, I would never buy it, no matter how cheap.
I got into Logos from WordSearch... as WordSearch died and to be frank, after about 1 month, I started looking elsewhere just because I was spending more time "trying to learn" and "trying to learn how use Logos to accomplish something" than actually being productive with Logos. I kept using WordSearch, and still do sometimes.... but I finally made a decision that I was going to learn this monster called Logos period. The learning curve is quite steep. In fact, now 2 years later, I'm still learning.
I may be an oddball.... but I seem to depend a lot on being able to search for research, for that "bit of information I read somewhere in my library" for ideas for my sermons and lessons and such. Isn't that what Search is for??? I'd rather spend my time memorizing Scripture than memorizing where some "bit of info I need for my sermons and lessons" are. To me, as I have argued, Logos Search was a disaster to me. Useless. Try as I did, it just didn't work. I stopped using it. Here I have thousands of dollars spent in a program that I couldn't find squat. Hopefully now that is being recognized and will be better. I am excited about the prospect of a new Search.
But I think of a newcomer, that doesn't have any background in all this... I think they would say they entered into the "twilight zone". I thought I did.
See you've been using Logos for upteen years. It's second nature to you. You've got your Passage Lists, your Notes, your Documents and such all laid out. When you need to find something, you don't have to use Search because of all the lists and such you've created over the years. Newcomers don't have all that background to call on. Search will be and is the newcomer's best tool to find things in their libraries. And if Search doesn't work for them.... then where are they? Stuck to learn a function when in reality that function should work for them from the beginning.
So my answer to your question is No! I would never buy a program that was so complex that I could not start being productive with it within a short time. Just like my example of a vehicle. And if I did buy something like that I would try to get my money back. Problem with Logos is.... I came from WordSearch.... Logos would not return all my money from WordSearch.... (I didn't ask them to do that) [8-|]
PS. I'm not angry about it all, but it has been frustrating.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
but it has been frustrating.
I have been watching your learning curve closely as I do all newbies who are struggling; it's the only way to figure out what approach will get them "over the hump" for their needs. I am not at all surprised that you have found it frustrating; I also doubt very much that you would have purchased Logos as your primary platform. My example to remember how you work is your frustration trying to find the name of a wife.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
No! When I buy a vehicle, I expect the newer models to have more bells and whistles than my older model.
When I bought a bike I spent days getting on and then falling off. I even suffered some minor injuries. Once I learned I knew.
When I learned to drive I spent a fortnight full time under instruction in order to pass my test. While I knew, in theory, how to operate a car, I found I didn't know in practice. It was complicated but once I learned I knew.
Strangely although I knew how to drive a car it took another fortnight of training to learn to drive a heavy goods vehicle.
New things, new models, need new learning time devoted to them. Did you learn to ride a bike or drive a vehicle?
xnman said:No! I would never buy a program that was so complex that I could not start being productive with it within a short time.
How does this relate to the situations above/
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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xnman said:
But I think of a newcomer, that doesn't have any background in all this... I think they would say they entered into the "twilight zone". I thought I did.
That kind of sums it up. And it reminds me of our new car we bought last year (the expensive one like Logos). As I mentioned before, the air conditioning controls are a mystery. We read the manual (it has one). We're both college grads, one from a top-flight university (not me). And it's July in Arizona, as we just punch a button and hope for the best. That's Logos. Neither good design.
Then experienced customers playing like it was well worth it!! Or just get a better designer. Hello.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I will chime in the value and ease of use etc. As I may have mentioned before I am a civilian (layperson) in all this. I do not preach/teach etc. I have spent thousands over the last 10(?) years.
Anyway, I feel it is powerful software. That power comes with complexity. That complexity takes time to learn not only what features and functions exist and how to use them, but from my perspective, when to use them and why. The when and why I think mostly falls into how to study the Bible and not so much the software.
In my humble opinion the software and its' resources are worth what I spend on it. Even something as simple as buying one of the books, you certainly can buy them cheaper on Amazon but as we all know Logos ties the book together with the software for searching, cross referencing, Facebook etc. So I see the added cost as paying for the work someone did in that regard.
I do not pretend to know all that I can do with the software I have. But I am always learning as I study the Bible. Videos here, in the software and on YouTube help a lot!
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Mike Binks said:xnman said:
No! When I buy a vehicle, I expect the newer models to have more bells and whistles than my older model.
When I bought a bike I spent days getting on and then falling off. I even suffered some minor injuries. Once I learned I knew.
When I learned to drive I spent a fortnight full time under instruction in order to pass my test. While I knew, in theory, how to operate a car, I found I didn't know in practice. It was complicated but once I learned I knew.
Strangely although I knew how to drive a car it took another fortnight of training to learn to drive a heavy goods vehicle.
New things, new models, need new learning time devoted to them. Did you learn to ride a bike or drive a vehicle?
xnman said:No! I would never buy a program that was so complex that I could not start being productive with it within a short time.
How does this relate to the situations above/
Good illustrations brother. Just notice one thing....If I had to learn to ride a bicycle every time I got on it.... I would give it a time period and then I wouldn't ride it (and you probably wouldn't either) because I would figure I could not learn how to. ---- Translated it means... I don't mind learning something new (learning for a while) but it's a waist of time to have to keep on learning it over and over. Same as when I learned to drive a tractor on the farm or an 18 wheeler or a vehicle on the road. You have to spend some time learning but somewhere you have to move on to actually be productive with your learning. Which translate to: The learning curve in Logos is too perpendicular and too tall.
Especially when it comes to bible study. How long should it take to learn Logos? I spent time learning WordSearch and some others.... but I did not... emphasize ... did not ... have to keep on learning it over and over and over and over. But with Logos.... I've watched videos, worked the examples, ask questions on the forums, worked examples from the forums, saw examples on the forums, worked the examples to ad infinities it seems. It's now 2 years later and I have learned things. I have Passage Lists, Documents, Notes and such now to help me. I now feel I am using Logos to actually become somewhat productive! But two years is a long time! Especially with all the hours like I have put into Logos. And am I ever grateful that I still had WordSearch in all this to fall back on!
And you have to admit, Logos is a very complex and sophisticated program. That's what the discussion was about and getting Logos more users. That's what I replied to. Just think if you came into Logos cold.... and then try to be productive... Well... I'm a guessing that you, like me, will be productive after a long steep learning curve, and will be frustrated in the process. I'm a busy guy....what is wrong with wanting something to help me be more productive that actually helps and I don't have to learn and learn and learn??
There will always be more PHDTHD's and MTHD's and such. If Logos wants to only be used by those guys, I think the market will be small. But if, as I imagine, Logos wants the non-PHDTHDs and non-MTHDs people... (the lay people as they are sometimes called) then Logos almost needs two programs as such... UNLESS ... they can make the one program work for both. It really is that simple.
And here's the caveat! If the new Search is anything like I am hearing about.... That one function alone will do wonders for the learning curve in Logos --- It will actually help people to find stuff in Logos! What a novel idea!!! lol ---- Mark Barnes is a hero!!!
IMHO. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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The learning curve will get steeper and steeper as you get older and older! How much of complaining here is by old people (I am one of them, by the way, in my 50s)?
When I started the PhD program, we had to learn to use statistical software packages like SAS and STATA ourselves. Nobody taught you these tools because they only had time to teach Finance material needed to get your PhD. Those days, we had no online manuals and we only had hard copies of stacks of manuals. Just for SAS, I would say 15+ books of 500+ pages each of manuals stacked up on the side of a wall. Trying to figure out which of the 15+ books contained the Help we were looking for when our program would not run was a challenge in itself. But it was no problem when we were PhD students because we were in our 20s. If I started the PhD program (50s) with the tools of 20 years back, I would have given up!
My point of the above analogy is that you can’t compare your Wordsearch learning curve (when you were 10 years younger) with your Logos learning curve (now that you’re older). age is a bummer when it comes to learning and the learning curve rises exponentially with age. You would have more difficulty if you had to start from scratch with Wordsearch today.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
The learning curve will get steeper and steeper as you get older and older!
Well, so far, Logos minimum user requirements, are young, determination to balance a bicycle, and free time to watch lots of videos.
Anything else? Oh yes, money. Lots.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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xnman said:
to have to keep on learning it over and over.
So now you're claiming memory problems? or are you skimming over things without taking the time to actually learn them? I have watched several people come into my installation cold -- all the features and > 50,000 resources -- and using it to help build their sermon within an hour. I don't consider them typical in that they are highly educated (not necessarily formally), computer literate, with I-can-do-anything personalities. Only one had previous experience with Bible software; at least three were seminary-trained decades ago.
What is seriously missing in this discussion is the recognition that the complexity of Logos is directly related to what you want it to do. And the users' theological view of what scripture is and how it is to be studied is directly related to what you need it to do. My limitations on recommending Logos to other laity are caused by it (a) poor implementation of liturgical date, (b) its limited capacity in dealing with imagery and symbols of scripture (and therefore of liturgical date) (c) its hard-core limitation to studying a single passage at a time (d) its workflows etc. being limited to Biblical texts and (e) the lack of concern for art, literature, music etc. that expresses scripture and is used to reinforce scripture in a service or teaching session.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
Well, so far, Logos minimum user requirements, are young, determination to balance a bicycle, and free time to watch lots of videos.
Anything else? Oh yes, money. Lots.
If I were to list the minimum user requirements based on what I have seen in the forums as characteristics of people who really struggle, I would list them as:
- decent memory
- ability to recognize patterns and generalize from examples
- ability to think and speak clearly -- if you can't describe what you are looking for you can't tell Logos to find it
- an accurate evaluation of what they do and do not know so they know when to ask for help
- a willingness to accept that their resources are not always going to confirm their beliefs (or at times even speak to their beliefs)
- patience to scroll/read through materials to find their answer (rather than expecting the machine to read their minds and put what they are thinking of on top)
- an ability to be satisfied with the resources and features they can afford, and therefore, the assistance they can reasonably expect Logos/Verbum to provide.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hopefully, Vik is relaxing, before church tomorrow. And will skip over this inane post. I was just thinking how well our new Unitree Go Pro robot dog would do with Logos (joking, of course).
MJ. Smith said:
decent memory
Surprisingly, quite a bit. Check.
MJ. Smith said:ability to recognize patterns and generalize from examples
Absolutely. Lidar option required if more than faces.
MJ. Smith said:ability to think and speak clearly -- if you can't describe what you are looking for you can't tell Logos to find it
Very good thinking (3 specialized boards). Check. No speaking or barking.
MJ. Smith said:an accurate evaluation of what they do and do not know so they know when to ask for help
Very accurate on what our dog wants and knows to do (what we want). Check. No asking; just do it.
MJ. Smith said:a willingness to accept that their resources are not always going to confirm their beliefs (or at times even speak to their beliefs)
patience to scroll/read through materials to find their answer (rather than expecting the machine to read their minds and put what they are thinking of on top)Goodness, he just doesn't care about theology. Humanology, yes. And no mind-reading. Check.
MJ. Smith said:an ability to be satisfied with the resources and features they can afford, and therefore, the assistance they can reasonably expect Logos/Verbum to provide.
He's broke. Uh oh.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB summed me up very nicely!! lol [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:
- an ability to be satisfied with the resources and features they can afford, and therefore, the assistance they can reasonably expect Logos/Verbum to provide.
Well said MJ. Bible software, or any software for that matter, is not a magic black box... Expectations on the tool, investment and how we engage it are paramount.
There is a span of use cases for Bible software, perhaps one continuum to consider is:
- Those that want a Bible, written and audio, and a few other bits electronically like maps, videos, images. Effectively a digital study bible, with maybe a bit of margin for expansion.
- Those that want a large seminary type of library of ebooks and resources to be able to do in-depth research, particularly for the theological and formal studies setting.
- Those that want to engage in deep original language and textual studies.
I think Logos has done a pretty good job of spanning the last two in particular, without completely alienating the digital study bible group. I think a very focused Faithlife app with a carefully curated library for someone who just wants a really cool study bible on their tablet or phone would have been a potential market amplifier, but to be fair, there are plenty of other products out there that already aiming to do that.
In my opinion, the Bible Software industry has entered a phase of maturity and it will be interesting to see where it goes now. When the industry started to take off, it was really exciting to watch and see what technologists were going to enable us to do that we could never do before. Bible software monitoring websites run by people like John Fidel and Ruben Gomez were tracking what was going on. Forums were busting with excitement about certain resources being digitised and accessed for the first time. Most of this coverage has disappeared, though I still continue to enjoy reading insights by Kevin Purcell and the occasional blogger.
Now the technology has matured, the pace of new developments has slowed dramatically. The new search engine we have been experimenting with in the beta forum is really cool and is very exciting, but is not common. It has been a while since we have seen potential game changers in the Bible software space, as we are now mostly seeing incremental refinements to platforms. Even being cross platformed and cloud technology based is a bit old hat now.
We have also lost a number of programmes as well. Maybe some would disagree, but WordSearch struck me in between a digital study bible and what Logos offers. A happy medium. I suggest that with some trepidation because the last five or so years I stopped using it. Maybe this is the use case for Olive Tree? BibleWorks is gone, and was clearly in the original languages and textual studies space. I am really hopeful Accordance can continue to excel in this area. So we are possibly seeing a consolidation of the market.
Within this consolidation, there has to be a centre of gravity in any product. The more things you try to build into a single programme, the greater the danger of the complexity. Logos is arguably a bit of a Swiss Army knife of Bible Software. It can do a bit of everything it seems, which makes it a bit daunting particularly with a large library. The late and now gone BibleWorks didn't try to compete in this space. They were geared up for a use case and did it really well. I always advise potential users to really think through what they want. Most of the time my advice is use a free product, or maybe Olive Tree. Occasionally Logos, particularly if they want courses like MobileEd or Accordance if they want a more focused experience, particularly if they want to dabble in original languages. Those who are engaged in formal studies or research know what they want because their use case requires it. (i.e. seminary students, scholars, SIL Bible Translators, etc.)
So where do we go from here? When was the last time you got excited about your word processor, email programme or web browser? Probably a long time. We now just use these tools everyday and think little about them most of the time. I think Bible Software has moved into that place. A Bible tool to fulfil a need or task. The question is what kind of Bible tool do you need? What is the software aiming to help you achieve? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out with Logos. I applaud them dropping some activities and I look forward to seeing where they go next.
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xnman said:
it's a waist of time to have to keep on learning it over and over.
xnman said:You have to spend some time learning but somewhere you have to move on to actually be productive with your learning.
I see, you are saying that having learnt something you get fatter and forget what you have learnt?
xnman said:The learning curve in Logos is too perpendicular and too tall.
DMB probably has a good example. Ones car may have a very complicated AirCon when it come to fine tuning. However for the car to function as a car one really doesn't need to fine tune the AirCon. That can be left to a lazy afternoon when the manuals can be studied. Once learnt, I am sure the AirCon controls will continue to function the way explained.
I am pretty sure that to get much from Logos it is not necessary to understand sentence diagraming. If hell freezes over I might investigate it but not knowing about it doesn't make Logos useless or even difficult.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
DMB probably has a good example. Ones car may have a very complicated AirCon when it come to fine tuning. However for the car to function as a car one really doesn't need to fine tune the AirCon
Mike, that was funny. Air conditioning in Arizona 'fine tuning ... really not important for the car to function. On one extreme of the argument, is the Logos vs eBible logic. At the other extreme, the apologists, don't make it easier! Then, there's Mark.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Donovan,
Well said! I am excited about the new search engine in Logos Web Beta. It can really open up one's library and assist in finding information for our study and research. I have alway thought that Logos had the longest vision of any of the software companies. I think they realized how easily and quickly they could be overcome by advancing technologies. This rapid use of AI in the new Web Beta search engine is evidence of this awareness.
Like most advanced software (Word, Excel etc.) users find where their needs and the software's features meet. Anyone complaining that Logos is too complex would need to say the same about most programs that are designed to fulfill the needs of a diverse group of people (lay, pastors, scholars, students etc.) Most use Word or Pages, but how many really know all the program's features? It is easy to use, but there are features that require time to utilize. I do think it takes time to learn all of the features of Logos. I do not think one needs to master every feature to benefit from using Logos in their studies. I suggest patience, reading MJ's tips, utilize the free videos and then look into advanced MP seminars available. If you do not have the time, then find your balance and learn as you go.
Logos has created software with access to the most extensive Biblical library, they have opened up the original languages creating Reverse Interlinears using the underlying texts and not Strong's numbering, they have created tagging that allows the user to mine information from the Biblical Texts and their library that none of their competitors can match, they have had cloud syncing and a rather powerful web based product for a while, they provide mobile tools for both IOS and Android. When I open the Bible Browser and find every place Gabriel is the speaker in Luke I am impressed. However, using the searches for those tags is still a learning curve for me, but I can learn it if I need it or read MJs tips. The concordance tool is amazing if you think about it, finding every work cited.
This is Logo's strength. Other bible software companies may have a different focus and strength. Some have failed because they did not/could not/did not want to look forward far enough. BibleWorks closed because the owners never trusted digital resources and could not see any way forward. Their website talked about the digital dark age. (may still be correct in the long run) Others failed I think because they could not keep us with changing technology or did not have the capital to do so.
We who have been using bible software for a while are fortunate to have experienced the growth, excitement and development that got us here. I remember reading Christian Computing Magazine for the first time and their reviews. I remember how big it was when the NICNT/OT first came out digitally along with many of the more advanced lexicons. The abundance of resources and tools that technology has allowed has numbed us to the wonder of it all not only in Bible software, but music, movies etc. I am on these forums because I still see excitement ahead and I truly love how Bible software helps me to study and open up the Biblical texts.
Stepping off my soap box...
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I'm just on the starter version after upgrading from the free version a few months ago. As a new user, I didn't find Logos to be prohibitively complicated or frustrating to learn for what I want to do on these lower versions. And I'm in my upper 50's. [:)] That said, I'm not utilizing the more complex features yet, but I'm certainly happy with what I can do so far and continue to grow whenever I need to accomplish something else.
However, I believe Logos could improve the presentation on the home page to attract more lay-users to the software. Currently, there's a prominent emphasis on the digital bookstore, and the way to access this digital library is through the software. Obviously Logos wants to promote the digital bookstore, but to me, this emphasis is backwards. The software itself should be front-and-center with the added benefit that there's a well-supplied digital bookstore available. Now, I'm not in marketing, so maybe I'm wrong. I can only speak from my own impressions and from comments I've read from others out in the wild.
For potential new users, the inclusion of countless expensive sales, packages and bundles, especially for resources one might never use, directly on the home page can be an immediate turn-away for several reasons. They see the offerings up front and conclude the software is not for them because it's presented as the way to access the material. I grant it may be a draw for some, but not for others. I also grant that the home page speaks of starting small, but the focus is on going big later and how to do so, complete with sales agent. That gives the sense of being too much for the lay user who simply wants a decent Bible application they can use and tailor to their purposes.
To appeal to everyone, it might be helpful to reverse the priority -- introduce the Bible software itself, its extensibility, features and available library, but don't stifle it with bookstore purchases and sales ads right there. Start with the basic / starter packages and what's included (with a nice screen shot or graphic of the application), progress to some advanced and tailored packages underneath, and display the bookstore sales on a secondary sales section for those who already own the product or just want to explore what's available if they purchase. That way new users will be acquainted specifically to the benefits of the software and see how it can easily be tailored to their liking, whether broad-based or more focused. Everyone needs to feel like Logos is for them, not just a way to access the bookstore and spend a lot more money. And in so doing, a portion of these additional new users will see the value for themselves in ordering higher packages, bundles and so on.
That's at least how it was for me -- I had to readjust my thinking from "this is just too much" to "this really is a useful application, and now I see the value in committing myself more to it." At the same time, I need to be assured I can tailor it for my use without being cumbered by resources I don't need or want, while having the freedom to branch wherever I like. Logos' concentration on the digital bookstore can actually prevent additional users from getting their toe wet with the product, IMO. But ... maybe that's intentionally designed from their marketing studies.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God. (Ps 90:2)
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
There is a span of use cases for Bible software, perhaps one continuum to consider is:
- Those that want a Bible, written and audio, and a few other bits electronically like maps, videos, images. Effectively a digital study bible, with maybe a bit of margin for expansion.
- Those that want a large seminary type of library of ebooks and resources to be able to do in-depth research, particularly for the theological and formal studies setting.
- Those that want to engage in deep original language and textual studies.
Above is 1, 2, 3.
I have always wondered how many like me there are in Logos. Maybe I'm the left side of 2.
Read books written by Ph. D.'s. Hi-lite. Write a few notes......Later review the hi-lites + notes. My library is medium size.
I combine this with minimal computer skills. I probably could use some more ability here, but because I don't know what I don't know, I don't know where to begin...This is my fault, I believe. I want to read my books, not computer stuff, as life is short, so I ignore the computer learning.
I'm here for the books.
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Yes John! And, I would add that Logos has a record of listening to its customers. Love your post, John.John Fidel said:Logos has created software with access to the most extensive Biblical library, they have opened up the original languages creating Reverse Interlinears using the underlying texts and not Strong's numbering, they have created tagging that allows the user to mine information from the Biblical Texts and their library that none of their competitors can match, they have had cloud syncing and a rather powerful web based product for a while, they provide mobile tools for both IOS and Android. When I open the Bible Browser and find every place Gabriel is the speaker in Luke I am impressed. However, using the searches for those tags is still a learning curve for me, but I can learn it if I need it or read MJs tips. The concordance tool is amazing if you think about it, finding every work cited.
This is Logo's strength.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Mike Binks said:xnman said:
The learning curve in Logos is too perpendicular and too tall.
DMB probably has a good example. Ones car may have a very complicated AirCon when it come to fine tuning. However for the car to function as a car one really doesn't need to fine tune the AirCon. That can be left to a lazy afternoon when the manuals can be studied. Once learnt, I am sure the AirCon controls will continue to function the way explained.
I'm not sure that example necessarily makes the point you're thinking. There's no reason for an automobile air conditioner to be be difficult to operate. If it is, it's an example of poor industrial design. Some things are inherently complex, and I think most of us get that. But what tends to make us (or at least me) crazy is when we get the sense that things are more difficult than they need to be.
Power and usability aren't mutually exclusive, but software developers have a limited amount of time. I suspect power users would like to see Logos developers put relatively more of their time into program features. For me, I'd rather see them put relatively more time into usability and interface design.
Neither perspective is wrong - it just reflects the differing needs and preferences of different users.
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EastTN said:
But what tends to make us (or at least me) crazy is when we get the sense that things are more difficult than they need to be.
I haven't designed a web app for two decades but even "back when" a major, insolvable problem for designers is that what is intuitive to one age group is not to another. Think of an analogue clock as an example ... they are removing them from some schools because students can't read them. I go nuts finding my own telephone number on the i-phone because it isn't where I would intuitively put it ... and get good laughs with kids and grandkids over it. I agree that the Logos UI can be improved significantly but all of us would be better off to temper our expectations with the reality that none of us are the typical user and all of us will still have a learning curve for the software (as well as the content).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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In an area of forum free speech.... I believe all comments are welcome as long as they don't violate the rules of the forum. I also believe it is easy to cut someone off and discourage them from posting just by the way we answer them. I believe this is a way of snuffling free speech. Free speech means free speech. IMHO -- [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
In an area of forum free speech.... I believe all comments are welcome as long as they don't violate the rules of the forum. I also believe it is easy to cut someone off and discourage them from posting just by the way we answer them. I believe this is a way of snuffling free speech. Free speech means free speech. IMHO --
This is very true and the reason I do not spend much time here because there are undoubtedly a few dictators around here and it is not too hard to figure out.
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ReformedDoc said:xnman said:
In an area of forum free speech....
... there are undoubtedly a few dictators around here ...
I'll volunteer. No experience, but if it pays good.
Actually, FL owns the forum; free is what they decide. Hand out little stars, like in school.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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My point was.... that if someone discourages others from commenting on or about the program, then that someone eventually gets the program they want because the others quit commenting because of being discouraged. That snuffles the free speech.
Me? I just never knew what the word "quit" meant. lol Or maybe I open mouth, stick in both feet and keep on.... I don't know which. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I suggest we all have to keep in mind that a forum like this does not communicate heart or intent completely. Also, sometimes people have English as a second or more language. One thing is clear, we all post on here because we are passionate about the use of this technology. As such we have pretty clear ideas on what we would like to see.
An observation that I would propose is that whilst Logos does listen to users, it also has its own strategy and does not appear to always immediately react to any one or strong opinions.
For example, when Galaxie Journals was suddenly dropped, there was an outcry on here resulting in multiple very long threads. At the time, it was very inconvenient to some stuff I was relying on them for and had to access updates in other ways. After some years we saw that redressed and we now have them back plus more. I think Logos heard and then was able to do all the work to lay the ground to expand their offering. It was likely not simple. (Still hanging in there to get Biblical Archaeology Review back!)
Other matters like mapping and image management, support for liturgical churches, etc. have consistently come up for many, many years. Instead we have received other features, some of which I don't have much use for, but I must assume Logo's market data shows a higher demand for them than I appreciate. And as much as I have occasionally found myself on the other side of the fence with some users on various points of view about a specific point of strategy, the general direction of the product has been something that appears that most users can find something they really need and enjoy.
We are a diverse group too. Power users like MJ, Dave Hooten, Graham Criddle, Smiling for Jesus, etc. suggest things all the time that I have never considered. Yet at the same time I find it refreshing to see someone relatively new to the software show a fresh perspective on what can be done better. As sad as I was that WordSearch closed, it has also been refreshing to see some from that community appear here and highlight the strengths of that product into what might be imagined for Logos. I saw a similar thing with BibleWorks and Accordance, and to this day we are seeing some forward momentum on value adds because of that input. (i.e. the Text Browser)
When you think about it we are a very mixed group of users. I don't work for Logos, so for what it is worth I see this as the dynamic of a diverse community and I welcome any exchange of views, even outright debate. We and the Bible software industry are stronger for it. In my view, all opinions are welcomed and may not be necessarily all agreed upon, but that is who we are and I think it is a wonderful thing.
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MJ. Smith said:
I haven't designed a web app for two decades but even "back when" a major, insolvable problem for designers is that what is intuitive to one age group is not to another. Think of an analogue clock as an example ... they are removing them from some schools because students can't read them. I go nuts finding my own telephone number on the i-phone because it isn't where I would intuitively put it ... and get good laughs with kids and grandkids over it. I agree that the Logos UI can be improved significantly but all of us would be better off to temper our expectations with the reality that none of us are the typical user and all of us will still have a learning curve for the software (as well as the content).
Granted, it's hard, and "intuitive" can be in the eye of the beholder. But I do think good user interface design can go a long way towards making software easier to use. I'm also not trying to bash Logos - I love the program. I'd just like to offer my perspective that the program is powerful enough now that I, as one (perhaps atypical) user, would benefit more from an improved interface than I would from additional features.
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EastTN said:
But I do think good user interface design can go a long way towards making software easier to use
I agree completely.
EastTN said:I, as one (perhaps atypical) user, would benefit more from an improved interface than I would from additional features.
I agree but with the additional caveat that improved interface include completing features.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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As the guy who accidentally started the negative spiral on this thread (I think), I feel the need to jump in here. For a very long time, we have seen this debate. Any time anyone brings up the complexity of the program, we have the usual drumbeat of how great the complexity of Logos is (because this means it's for smart people to do hard things, and OTHER software in other fields are overly complex too and they are great...), countered by how it would be better if it were only more intuitive, followed by, what is intuitive for one is complex for the other, and on and on, which always devolves to how bad it is for searching (It's good because it is so complex that if you know all the specific codes to us, it can find very obscure things most people wouldn't search for - it's bad because I can't find simple passages/resources/whatever...
This thread might well be a good place to continue that debate, as it is the one where Logos has expressed its future objectives as a company. I'm hoping that within the debate people would try to find some new context and argumentation to move the discussion forward, but debate is generally good.
As for me, my point was related to the original message, with the specific statement of objectives for the company.
Vik Rajagopal said:Logos exists to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study through a fusion of biblical content and powerful technology, because we believe a deeper relationship with God comes through knowing the Word.
My point is, as a pastor, it has been perhaps 20 years since I have found Logos to be helpful "to empower believers everywhere to go deeper..." because any package that that has the resources to be helpful for most believers is too expensive for most believers, and it's level of complexity is more than most believers will be willing to learn and continue to use. In fact, it has been my experience that most Pastors don't think it is not worth their time and money.
If you are a power user, whose church is willing to spend big money for your Bible software, and you like the intricacies of Logos, and owning tens of thousands of books you won't read, that's great. I absolutely think it is good that Logos provides a tool for you. However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word in regard to being able to do more simple tasks simply and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.
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Al Het said:
However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word in regard to being able to do more simple tasks simply and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.
May I ask what may seem obvious, but isn't obvious to me. What resources do you consider essential for a basic user and what is the approximate price for them? and what tasks do you expect a basic user to use.
If I were looking at my own tradition, the average paid parish employee including diocesan clergy could go "all in" for $250 (St. Paul Center Verbum Library 1 – St. Paul Center (stpaulcenter.com)) which includes more than most would need. Very few would need original language features, most would need little more than building collections, linking resources, layouts, notes, power lookup, information panel, factbook, and the homily builder/lesson builder. Yes, I have intentionally omitted the search. What they would need is patience with the incomplete tagging on sermons etc., the limitation of a single passage under study at a time, the poor implementation of liturgical date, . . . For the average parishioner, the basic resources and the free engine should get them in for something close to $100.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Al Het said:
If you are a power user whose church is willing to spend big money for your Bible software, and you like the intricacies of Logos and owning tens of thousands of books you won't read, that's great. I think it is good that Logos provides a tool for you. However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word regarding being able to do more simple tasks simpler and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.
As I retired pastor I hear your words loud and clear, there was I time that I got caught up in building a large library so over the years I ended up with resources I never use. I have had Logos since about 2000 and used to chat with Bob P. weekly, so I am not in any way new to the program, I also have a good grip on how to use it. But these days my focus is the original languages and searches in the other brand's software are way less complex and more intuitive.
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MJ. Smith said:EastTN said:
But I do think good user interface design can go a long way towards making software easier to use
I agree completely.
EastTN said:I, as one (perhaps atypical) user, would benefit more from an improved interface than I would from additional features.
I agree but with the additional caveat that improved interface include completing features.
I'll add a biiiggg AMEN! to this quote. And again, I am excited to see what the new Search looks like. That was a great place for Mark Barnes and crew to start. And I don't think he's going to stop there!! Maybe a good revision soon.... ?????
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:
May I ask what may seem obvious, but isn't obvious to me. What resources do you consider essential for a basic user and what is the approximate price for them?
That's a great question, and probably not obvious at all.
I have a list of recommendations for a basic, useful set of tools that I recommend every Christian own. Really, it is a simple list that would largely cover an "average Christian," all the way up to Bible study leaders, and even Elders and Deacons. It actually only consists of a handful of basic tools.
1. I think every serious Christian should have 3 modern, trustworthy, well established, highly reputed of versions of the Bible. I have my list of trustworthy versions, and of course others have theirs. For a non-original language trained Christian, I think ANY TIME A PASSAGE IS BEING STUDIED SERIOUSLY, there is great value to comparing/using at least 3 versions. I would tell people that buying Bible software without being able to compare 3 solid translations on the same screen at once is a significant miss.
2. I think every serious Christian should have access to 2 modern, trustworthy, well established whole Bible commentaries. This too is very valuable for any serious study of a particular passage. Again, there will be plenty of argument about which commentaries are trustworthy, and I have my list...
3. I think every serious Christian should have access to 2 modern, trustworthy, well established Bible dictionaries. On top of this, I would STRONGLY recommend a Bible encyclopedia, for topics you want to gain a deeper understanding in than the dictionaries will provide.
4. Finally, I think every serious Christian who buys Bible Software should be able to search the Bible for verses they can't remember well, or passages related to particular topics they are interested in. Of course, Bible dictionaries/encyclopedias will usually provide passages on most topics. Also, something like a Naves Topical Bible would also suffice in this way. Perhaps the biggest question I get asked from laypeople who have Logos is, "How do I find verses that I can't remember exactly." Of course, I've taken to telling them to google it, which actually works pretty well, but should not be better than a dedicated Bible software.
So, I just looked, and no package offers these resources (at least the first 3) for under $1,000. And while you talk about the "free version," I didn't see that on the website. I'm sure it exists, and I'm sure Faithlife/Logos doesn't want to highlight that as an easily available option. The first one I see listed is the "Starter" package which costs $295. This price is probably a massive dis-incentive for most people already. Then, they would need to add a few resources, maybe another $100. I could imagine strongly encouraging people to pay $300 for Bible software, if I felt like it would instantly be very useful for them. However, most laypeople I know who have bought Logos in the last decade don't use it because it is not very inviting or "intuitive" for them.
This is the down side to the closing of all those other companies that offered more basic Bible software. Nearly all of those had software for under $100 that would have several modern, solid translations, a couple of Bible dictionaries, the Bible Knowledge commentary and the New Bible Commentary, a great map set, and a simple search feature. I know lots of people who LOVED Parsons, or Bibleworks, or others. Of course, these programs would be much less useful to people who roam these forums, but were great for the average Christian. There apparently wasn't enough of a market for them, but it is too bad.
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