Revelation 12 Dragon Gender

Forget the Latin and focus on the Greek New Testament. In Verse 4 when it says his tail. That his is translated perfectly from the Greek New Testament. At the end of the verse the he pronoun is implied accurately from a single Greek word. I could probably pull all references out of Scripture to Satan and in every case just following rules of grammar he is always translated as a male figure.

addaminsane said:

Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.

Well, in some Spanish speaking countries they have a saying that goes something along this lines: “The devil always wears a skirt!” It’s used to illustrate how men have fallen to the seductive power of women.  Just ask David!

On a side note, to me Satan has always been “male” if you want to put a gender on him.  I guess I could be wrong but it’s not a salvation issue in my book.

DAL

addaminsane said:

Outside of Revelation 12, I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan ... the same goes for the tower of babel when it says Let US go down and confuse their language.  

Outside of Revelation 12, it seems to me that Satan is always depicted as a feminine character to God ... the most beautiful angel ... highest anointed ... making music within the body ... cursed to crawl on the belly ...

I havn't felt it makes sense to think of Satan as a male for over 10 years and lately I've been trying to see if i can solidify this belief by ruling out potential contradictions.

May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.

Bob

addaminsane said:

I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan

Wow, addaminsane ... Jesus got replaced by a woman?  And then she chatted with Eve?  Or was the adversary a guy?  This is getting confusing.

WARNING!!! I believe that this thread has become theology driven and is now in violation of forum guidelines.

addaminsane said:

Hi roy.  I don't understand what you feel you are accomplishing here?  I'm putting my mind out there and have no reason to interact with anybody that doesn't appreciate another's willingness to put themselves out there.

Forum Guidlines.

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Please note items 1 & 2.

The forums are not for "putting my mind out there". As noted in the guidelines there are other places for that type of speech.

I simply believe that the discussion has moved into the realm of theology. Now if you instead would ask "How would I research this topic in Logos?" that would likely fit within the guidelines. Or even "What resources do you know of that might address this topic?". Again within the guidelines.

Understand where I am coming from now?

Bob said:

May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.

Thats exactly what I was thinking, but after reading a bit more of the OP's ideas, I think those books are way too scholarly.

I'm not sure what resources would help here. But not understanding the different genres of literature when going into apocalyptic literature always gets people into trouble.

Does it really matter if the serpent or dragon is male or female, when it is clearly stated to be symbolism? I'm sure many would argue that a dragon is an imaginary creature.

According to the Bible, Male and Female are attributes of earthly creatures that God created. Angels are not among those types of beings, and do not reproduce "after their kind".

addaminsane said:

I will be thinking about that one.

I'm not agreeing with your proposal (no offense).  The problem is linguistics as above (gendered words independent of gender), but also the transition of 'serpent' to adversary, to daemon and devil, both in time, language, and location.  For example Legeon, as an name/object, is a 'he'.  But in Mark 5:15, the morph'ing can't decide.

In the Revelations case is the uniqueness of combining all 3 under the rubric of 'ancient serpent' (2 instances).

You can find similar discussions in Logos depending on your library.  The example below is from Dictionary of the Apostolic Church (basically Paul and Rev's usage):

"Earliest of all was the ancient dragon-myth of the Babylonian Creation-epic, with its representation of the struggle of Tiāmat, the princess of chaos and darkness, against Marduk, the god of order and light. The myth appears to have belonged to the common stock of Semitic ideas, and must have become familiar to the Hebrews from their earliest settlement in Canaan, if indeed it was not part of the ancestral tradition carried with them from their original Aramæan home."

addaminsane said:

 The part I'm hung up on is why language used to describe the dragon is male.  Is it only because John the revelator associates the dragon with "the devil" and "satan"? 

It is not because of John, but because in the Greek language the word "dragon" has the grammatical gender masculine.  Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.

The word for "sun" in German is  "Sonne", grammatically its gender feminine, and associated pronouns would be feminine (sie, ihre > she, her). The word for "moon" in German is "Mond", grammatically its gender is masculine, and associated pronouns would be masculine (er, seine > he, his).  In French you have "soleil" for "sun", but its grammatical gender is masculine; whereas the word for moon is "lune" and its grammatical gender is feminine. Now, of course, neither sun or moon in German or French are neither male nor female in reality but things.

In English, since there is no grammatical gender of the words "sun" or "moon" the assigned pronoun for "sun" and "moon" would just be be "it" (neuter), because the words refer to a thing, not a male and not a female person.

When translating, the grammatical gender may be different, and the translator normally would then adjust the pronouns to correspond to the grammatical gender of the noun rather than keeping the pronouns from the source language.  In the case in Rev and the dragon, the German translations follows exactly the Greek because the noun "dragon" in Greek and in German are grammatically masculine. In English however, some translators keep the male pronouns from the Greek and translate the pronouns as "he, his", whereas other translators use the term "dragon" in English and then adjust the Greek masculine pronouns to the English neuter pronoun "it, its".

In any case, the context of a passage would provide the key(s) to determine the actual meaning of words and to what they refer.  One could use various Logos resources and searches to gather more information on the words used in the text (lexicons, dictionary, etc.), text comparison tool to check different Bible translations, passage guide, etc.

scooter said:

Wolfgang Schneider said:

Now, the English language is rather primitive in that nouns do not have a grammatical gender as such, which might make it difficult for English speakers to understand some of these points related to this matter when translating from one language to another.

Wolfgang, I read your extensive reply with great interest.  As one who knows only English [and the bit of French I learned in school], I found your examples fascinating.

Thank you for taking the time to elucidate.  

Thanks to MJ. I had a little attitude adjustment towards questions I usually pass over. I think I've discovered why I'm a bit grumpy. Ignorance. I apologize for the arrogant way I approached my fellow Believers. I promise to work on a better way. I need to be stretched and challenged so I can shed this inferiority complex.

I hope that I can be a repairer of the breach. Forgive me addminsane and if you read this you also Christian Alexander.

Beloved Amodeo said:

scooter, I agree. Although my first language spoken in life was Spanish. I was born in Panama, but sadly left at the age of two. I had to Google this, but 39% of the U.S. population speaks Spanish. I took (not studied) French in college. Didn't learn a thing.

My French started in Grade 7 [Canada].  Too little, too late.  Dropped the project after grade 10.  I can mostly pronounce people's names, which can help, showing effort and respect.  I did 3 mo. of Spanish in university [what you call college] + dropped it as I had no one to practise with outside class.  So, only English.  

Beloved Amodeo said:

scooter said:

 So, only English.

It's a shame, but me too. I was a science nerd. I gave no effort to languages even English. I was raised in the Bronx, New York City. I just missed the era of Latin in 1st Grade for the accelerated program. We had to take up an instrument for music study. They stuck me with the violin because I had an aptitude for it. I also studied the piano. But things like that don't make you popular in the neighborhood.

I would cram for the exams in everything but science. I got good grades so my mother and father didn't see the bad habits I was gathering. I also loved to read and this is what saved me because I read about everything. So, when it came time to take the aptitude exams in high school I scored high. Which paved my way to Washington University in St. Louis on a partial scholarship. But, that place for pre-med ate me alive. I transferred back home to The Ohio State University. I'll  spare you the rest of the story.

I was a reading nerd., quiet, good marks.  I did science, a degree I used to have a career in that area.  Retired now, I use my ability to study on God, using L's materials.  This effort has an expansive feel to it; I do it 7 days a week.  Great talking to you!!