Revelation 12 Dragon Gender
Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.
However, when researching Satan, there is one reference that stands out in all the english translations as referencing the character as male and that is the dragon of revelation 12 to specifically describes the dragon as the devil or satan and proceeds to use his and him in relation.
The reason i joined this forum is to see if someone can translate revalation 12 from original latin to see if it is absolutely necessary to apply male connotation to the dragon that archangel michael battles in revelation 12.
For example ... Is it possible to say It's tail rather than his tail?
Does the original text absolutely imply male characteristic to the dragon or is the gender been presumed by the english interpreters?
If the original language of revelation 12 doesn't absolutely indicate a male connotation for the dragon than every last reason i could ever have to believe that Satan is male is gone.
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If the original language of revelation 12 doesn't absolutely indicate a male connotation for the dragon than every last reason i could ever have to believe that Satan is male is gone.
Welcome to the forums. The male gender may be used simply as grammatical gender not biological gender - one would have to find examples of both male and female to show it is biological gender. But why do you think angels/demons/devil have gender?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Outside of Revelation 12, I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan ... the same goes for the tower of babel when it says Let US go down and confuse their language.
Outside of Revelation 12, it seems to me that Satan is always depicted as a feminine character to God ... the most beautiful angel ... highest anointed ... making music within the body ... cursed to crawl on the belly ... krafty ... deceiving ...
It just doesn't make an ounce of sense to me to think of the most beautiful or most deceiving or most krafty as a masculine description. I have no problem with thinking of Christ being tempted by his bride in the desert.
I'm not yet convinced that the biggest lie the devil has been deceiving us with is that she is actually a he.
I haven't felt it makes sense to think of Satan as a male for over 10 years and lately I've been trying to see if i can solidify this belief by ruling out potential contradictions.
Outside of Revelation 12, I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan ... the same goes for the tower of babel when it says Let US go down and confuse their language.
Outside of Revelation 12, it seems to me that Satan is always depicted as a feminine character to God ... the most beautiful angel ... highest anointed ... making music within the body ... cursed to crawl on the belly ...
I havn't felt it makes sense to think of Satan as a male for over 10 years and lately I've been trying to see if i can solidify this belief by ruling out potential contradictions.
May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.
Bob
Hi bob. Im really trying to focus on the original texts that we get the character of Satan from and see if the male connotation is absolutely necessary or simply presumed from previous teachers of those who interpreted. If it is possible to think of Satan as an "it" from the translations than I would personally learn towards thinking of the character as feminine.
May I recommend you read “The Unseen Realm” and ”Angels and Demons” by Dr Michael S. Heiser.
Thats exactly what I was thinking, but after reading a bit more of the OP's ideas, I think those books are way too scholarly.
I'm not sure what resources would help here. But not understanding the different genres of literature when going into apocalyptic literature always gets people into trouble.
Does it really matter if the serpent or dragon is male or female, when it is clearly stated to be symbolism? I'm sure many would argue that a dragon is an imaginary creature.
According to the Bible, Male and Female are attributes of earthly creatures that God created. Angels are not among those types of beings, and do not reproduce "after their kind".
I have come to feel that when God says let US create man he is talking to Satan
Wow, addaminsane ... Jesus got replaced by a woman? And then she chatted with Eve? Or was the adversary a guy? This is getting confusing.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Im interpreting it that When God says let US ... he is speaking to another individual ... A feminine individual. He procedes to make male and female in their image. This interpretation provides a place for Satan that actually makes sense as God's highest anointed. The highest anointed next to a king is the queen.
I will be thinking about that one.
I'm not agreeing with your proposal (no offense). The problem is linguistics as above (gendered words independent of gender), but also the transition of 'serpent' to adversary, to daemon and devil, both in time, language, and location. For example Legeon, as an name/object, is a 'he'. But in Mark 5:15, the morph'ing can't decide.
In the Revelations case is the uniqueness of combining all 3 under the rubric of 'ancient serpent' (2 instances).
You can find similar discussions in Logos depending on your library. The example below is from Dictionary of the Apostolic Church (basically Paul and Rev's usage):
"Earliest of all was the ancient dragon-myth of the Babylonian Creation-epic, with its representation of the struggle of Tiāmat, the princess of chaos and darkness, against Marduk, the god of order and light. The myth appears to have belonged to the common stock of Semitic ideas, and must have become familiar to the Hebrews from their earliest settlement in Canaan, if indeed it was not part of the ancestral tradition carried with them from their original Aramæan home."
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
DMB it gets confusing to try to insert the name of Jesus into the story. I'm trying to simplify the text. Adding Jesus in is complicating it. Jesus is the name of the human representation of God born through the body of Mary. You don't add to anybodies ability to understand Genesis by trying to through Jesus' name into the story.
Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.
Well, in some Spanish speaking countries they have a saying that goes something along this lines: “The devil always wears a skirt!” It’s used to illustrate how men have fallen to the seductive power of women. Just ask David!
On a side note, to me Satan has always been “male” if you want to put a gender on him. I guess I could be wrong but it’s not a salvation issue in my book.
DAL
Welcome addam
The reason i joined this forum is to see if someone can translate revalation 12 from original latin to see if it is absolutely necessary to apply male connotation to the dragon that archangel michael battles in revelation 12.
For example ... Is it possible to say It's tail rather than his tail?
This specific has been dealt with in a previous post, but it is interesting to note that NABRE, CSB and NIV 2011 translate "its tail". The dragon is Male, so I think some translators will not personify the dragon even though "his tail" is grammatically correct. BTW, 'tail' is Feminine!
Otherwise, Satan is always Male, as are the adjectives 'devil' and 'evil one'.
Dave
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Hi, this may sound like an odd post to some but I really get a feminine feel to most references to the character of Satan in scripture.If I were you I would heed and read Mt 22:29 in its full context, and thus be done with this kind of thinking altogether.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
You're passage is an aggressive attack towards meNo attack intended. Just meant to underscore our Savior's view on such discussions. Satan is a spirit being and as such has no gender. This is what the scripture points out. I meant no offense.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
Beloved Amodeo, it is ridiculous for you to presume that Matthew 22 29 is Jesus condemning this type of discussion. Many of you are saying that the gender is irrelevant but I don't think it is at all. In Revelation 12 in the english translations they use "His" and "Him" pronouns when if the gender was completely irrelevant they would just use "It".
What I'm trying to figure out is if the interpretation of His is actually based on the original latin or if it has been presumed due to the correlation with the word satan or the devil as traditionally being thought of as a Him.
I don't feel the text gives reason to believe Satan is a him anywhere outside of Revelation 12. I'm repeating myself because many responding to this topic are doing so without taking the original query seriously. I already knew I would get this kind of cookie cutter feedback from many, but i am thankful that there have been a few solid answers too.
Forget the Latin and focus on the Greek New Testament. In Verse 4 when it says his tail. That his is translated perfectly from the Greek New Testament. At the end of the verse the he pronoun is implied accurately from a single Greek word. I could probably pull all references out of Scripture to Satan and in every case just following rules of grammar he is always translated as a male figure.