Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
Comments
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Bradley
Thank you for engaging and for your comments.
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Bradley,
I know you don't mean to confuse but to clarify. Even after writing this, I know you took a lot of time to write this. But I am trying to follow the logic behind your argument.1) You are saying the word features can be misleading or unfruitful. Instead, Faithlife needs to change its model and claim them as "services" because they have to be continuously updated, this requires work. In the past, they have been advertised as "features," but are now going to be called "services" due to the ongoing work? Are you saying that Faithlife has been digging itself a hole and is now trying to get out of the mess they are in? I think the confusing part is that a lot of things within Logos require ongoing work. From my understanding, even resources/books themselves require updating (every month I see my notification bar telling me a resource I already have has been updated). I can't even think of a current feature that isn't being "serviced," but maybe there is.
Anyway, if this is the case. It makes me wonder about what will truly be perpetually licensed in the future.
2) You are saying the current model only provided funds every 2 years. This limits what can be done based on your 1-5 unsatisfying possibilities, which Faithlife is closest to options 1 and 2. Subscription on the other hand will give Faithlife regular revenue to allow work to continue.
I am trying to understand the math here. I own a farm so it will be somewhat of a comparison. I only get paid for my farm once the harvest comes in. In other words, I only get paid for all my work during the harvest season (I don't have any guarantees besides my faith in God in this). This is similar to the 2-year model because Faithlife gets paid for all their work during the "new release season." Now whether my harvest season was all year round or seasonal, my income would be the same. Theoretically, the same would be true for Faithlife. The current subscription price is similar to a feature-set price every 2 years.
To me, this is more of a managing problem than a financial problem. Subscription will not change the financial situation in a significant way. In my opinion, it will probably hurt it. In fact, my guess is that the subscription price will need to double or more to account for ongoing work and new feature work, this will definitely turn off the customer base. However, I don't see why Faithlife can't just charge more every 2 years. Also, how does this change the motivation to be more responsive to customers? I would work harder on my farm to ensure I get that harvest money than if I knew I had a steady income. Have you seen how the government operates? There seems to be a disconnect with reality on that part.
3) Faithlife wants to focus on the core experience. Why did it sell it short in the first place? Or does this mean that new features are coming to a point it is difficult to sell because Logos is already a massive software program? Are more people satisfied with what they have and do not need to invest in the newest version? Kind of like the difference between an iPhone 14 and 15? Why pay for the 15, when the 14 is so similar? In other words, Logos needs a flow of income to pay for features that already exist or should have already existed and make them better and more functional; however, it is impossible to do that on the current model because its focus is on the new selling features.
If this is so, then why doesn't Faithlife become more transparent about this?0 -
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
At the risk of stating the obvious, it's not sustainable to commit to an unbounded amount of future work (updating features to be compatible with new hardware and software, making improvements, running the servers, managing security patches, etc.) for a one-time payment (i.e., a perpetual feature license) now.
Sure, selling perpetual feature licenses for Logos 11 would bring in revenue (one time) in 2024. But it would create the ongoing liability and expense of maintaining those features in 2025, and 2026, and 2027, and ... "forever".
Bradley, as others have stated, I also greatly appreciate your clarifications and contributions. In Frank's defense, I believe it is Logos itself who is to blame for this "forever" problem. Even in the recent update that was sent out, it states, "As always, the content you’ve purchased is yours forever and accessible with or without a subscription." Content here seems to clearly include features as well as books. Logos has insisted on selling both features and books for "forever" ownership. It sounds like this needs to stop. It sounds based on your comment like this is not a sustainable promise. It seems to me that once this promise of "forever" is removed, a lot of the problems fall away. Like most companies who sell software for ownership, you can simply promise it will work with the current software and hardware on the market. You can also promise 2-5 years of support for that package. And then the support falls away. Customers who do not update will be stuck with a stagnant, unsupported package of features. And if customers get annoyed by the problems that will inevitably spring up or desire updated features, they can buy a new package.
Instead of promising "forever" ownership, Logos should decide on a number of years that is sustainable and in line with healthy business practices and promise that, i.e. "3 years of updates and support" (clearly differentiating updates from upgrades).
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Christopher Randall said:
I am trying to understand the math here. I own a farm so it will be somewhat of a comparison. I only get paid for my farm once the harvest comes in. In other words, I only get paid for all my work during the harvest season (I don't have any guarantees besides my faith in God in this). This is similar to the 2-year model because Faithlife gets paid for all their work during the "new release season." Now whether my harvest season was all year round or seasonal, my income would be the same. Theoretically, the same would be true for Faithlife. The current subscription price is similar to a feature-set price every 2 years.
Lord willing, your harvest will be plentiful year after year (this consistency can be helped by good insurance as you well know, I'm sure). Unfortunately, people are not quite as predictable as crops. Logos has a huge problem with customers not wanting to spend. I'm sure plenty of people are still happily using Logos 7. If the smaller, more regular subscription price can encourage a larger percentage of customers to spend regularly, it has the potential to significantly improve the financial situation.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Logos has insisted on selling both features and books for "forever" ownership. It sounds like this needs to stop.
Maybe I'm reading too much into your statement, but that sounds like falling into the "opposite" trap.
We don't think we can go to the market and say "We know you can buy this book in Kindle and own it forever, but instead you should buy it in Logos and it'll stop working in 2-5 years unless you buy an upgrade."
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Like most companies who sell software for ownership, you can simply promise it will work with the current software and hardware on the market. You can also promise 2-5 years of support for that package. And then the support falls away. Customers who do not update will be stuck with a stagnant, unsupported package of features. And if customers get annoyed by the problems that will inevitably spring up or desire updated features, they can buy a new package.
Sounds like we're going back to the question I originally posed in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/223103/1299807.aspx#1299807: do you want to return to a model (or switch, really, because we never had that model) where you buy a specific version of the software engine (and the books) and never get any updates unless you pay for them?
Because that's not how the software is currently delivered. We ship updates every two weeks (for books) and six weeks (for the software) for free, because we want to protect the investment you've made in the content. As has been stated many times by Mark, we're not planning to change that model. What we are discussing is moving software features (which are really quite different) to a subscription-first model.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
We don't think we can go to the market and say "We know you can buy this book in Kindle and own it forever, but instead you should buy it in Logos and it'll stop working in 2-5 years unless you buy an upgrade."
Yes, there is a lot that could be said here to provide more clarity and understanding. I acknowledge that this is the case from every angle. Therefore, I also do not fault you and the rest of the team for needing time to think through these issues. Truly, it is not a simple decision. I would guess that the promise of forever ownership was more realistic in the past. In today's ever-changing world of technology, it is easy to see why it is no longer sustainable. This makes the need for subscription all the more obvious. But, might I ask, if feature ownership is so unsustainable, how will you be able to incorporate it into the subscription at all? Someone could simply subscribe for as long as it takes to purchase a feature package and then unsubscribe. Then you are left with the same problem of eternal support to a customer who may never again contribute to Logos' revenue.
I do feel like you've taken my comment a bit in an unfair direction by suggesting that a Logos book may become unreadable immediately after a feature package loses official support. Theoretically, If a customer were to purchase Logos 10, they would be able to read all Logos books with the functionality of the Logos 10 package that they purchased. A book would only become unreadable when the Logos 10 package no longer functions properly on their computer. This may take a very long time, especially if they don't upgrade their operating system.
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Christopher Randall said:
I know you don't mean to confuse but to clarify. Even after writing this, I know you took a lot of time to write this. But I am trying to follow the logic behind your argument.
Sorry if this was confusing. I was really just trying to elaborate on some of my thinking around subscription and why it makes sense for software.
I'm not trying to announce any change of direction or policy change beyond what Mark already said here three months ago:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Later this year, we’ll launch the next version of Logos as a subscription.
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a subscription model enables us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Sounds like we're going back to the question I originally posed in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/223103/1299807.aspx#1299807: do you want to return to a model (or switch, really, because we never had that model) where you buy a specific version of the software engine (and the books) and never get any updates unless you pay for them?
Because that's not how the software is currently delivered. We ship updates every two weeks (for books) and six weeks (for the software) for free, because we want to protect the investment you've made in the content. As has been stated many times by Mark, we're not planning to change that model. What we are discussing is moving software features (which are really quite different) to a subscription-first model.
It's not about what I want. Of course everyone would like support forever, as has been the case in the past. But you appear to be saying that the way things have been done in the past is no longer sustainable going into the future. The question, then, is, is there a way to salvage some part of the traditional purchase model without going 100% subscription only?
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Aaron Hamilton said:
But, might I ask, if feature ownership is so unsustainable, how will you be able to incorporate it into the subscription at all? Someone could simply subscribe for as long as it takes to purchase a feature package and then unsubscribe. Then you are left with the same problem of eternal support to a customer who may never again contribute to Logos' revenue.
Great question, and not one I have an answer to. I think it could depend a lot on the mix of current subscribers vs perpetual owners (which is unknowable for us right now and hard to predict), the expectations around ongoing access to subscription features (if it's retired from the subscription, do perpetual owners still keep it, or is it also retired for them?), and also the nature of the features. If we're right that subscription helps us focus more on core features, then that could actually be less code for us to maintain (as opposed to adding new features every two years that increases the maintenance burden).
Let me give an example. Let's say (and I am completely making this up) that based on user feedback and usage stats we decide that Bibliography Documents, Clippings Documents, and Notes are really three views of "the same thing" that are needlessly separated in the UI. (*waves hands wildly* A Bibliography is just a list of citations from the notes in a particular Notebook, and Clippings is just a view of a Notebook that focuses on the excerpted text rather than the note taken on it.) And let's say we believe we can combine all three into one UI that has a better overall user experience. If we can collapse three documents into one, we can (a) reduce the amount of code in the app, which (b) makes it easier to port to other platforms, and (c) costs less to maintain, while (d) being easier to learn and use, (e) reducing the amount of training and support material we need to produce, etc.
I believe this kind of improvement can be delivered more easily and more incrementally in a subscription model. (If it's what users want.) But historically it's been hard for us to sell, because our Feature Upgrades (due to how dynamic pricing works in our store) comprise lists of individual features with SRPs, and "Removed Bibliography Documents: $29.99" isn't an easy-to-sell line item on the feature upgrade list. 😆
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Aaron Hamilton said:
The question, then, is, is there a way to salvage some part of the traditional purchase model without going 100% subscription only?
Yes, that's the question everyone's asking. 😀
Please don't take anything I've written tonight as saying "it's not possible". I'm not making that decision nor announcing it here.
I've really just been trying to provide some background for people who are interested in engaging in dialogue or talking through some of the issues (or have been saying "Logos isn't listening" or "It's been two months, why don't we have an answer yet"). It's a complicated problem; we are listening and we're trying to make the best decision for our customers and the business (so we can be around to serve you for many years to come).
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MJ. Smith said:
The days when Accordance and Logos were each profitable while running on a single operating system are long since over.
Well said. You just summarised a thousand forum messages in one sentence. Also, what is core software, features, databases, books, cloud services, etc have become blurred and in some cases fused. The economics around version 2 versus version 10 are breathtakingly different and complicated. Let’s not forget the free platforms which are nibbling at this niche market.
A fight to evolve has come to the Bible software market and there have already been some serious losers. I am glad Logos is not sitting on its hands doing the same thing over and over. Yes, there is a PE involved and you can read some stuff on Glassdoor (which I generally take with a grain of salt), but change whether forced by crisis or proactive action always creates a level of discomfort.
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I think one thing that users like myself--those who don't want to subscribe--probably need to understand is that more and more of what we call Logos "features" require, for want of a better phrase, continuous support from the cloud/web. We've seen this in the past with features such as the Bible browser and the translation tool. It is my hunch that most of the new features planned for Logos 11 are likely things like the AI search and summary services that do have an ongoing, quantifiable cost according to usage. Levying a monthly charge for these services only make sense.
Hence, we are probably not going to see, like we have in the past, a large upgrade package of new features that are basically buy once and for all and require little more than occasional maintenance updates. How will Logos then package and market those as stand-alone features apart from the new services? For example, if 90% of the new stuff planned for L11 is AI-based that they have to pay for each month, how will they spin off and sell the remaining 10% as an attractive feature set to purchase? I could be wrong, but I suspect this is a large part of the issue.
I don't want to subscribe for several reasons:
- subscription fatigue
- lack of interest in AI
- burned from the discontinuation of Logos Now
It is my hope that the stuff I'm not interested in (AI tools) will be left in the subscription streams but that there are things that I will be interested in that will be available for outright purchase as I am extremely unlikely to pay $25 or $15 a month for a subscription. ($10, perhaps, but the lowest tier likely wouldn't interest me at all.) I'm willing to wait and see.
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I do appreciate the responses from Bradley Grainger as well.
I'm glad to see there being more of a discussion going on now and that's great.
We all have different things we want from Logos and I am also willing to have open discussion with Logos about possible solutions etc.
I would suggest keeping the AI based stuff clearly as a subscription-based add-on as that does make sense. I am somewhat familiar with AI and understand there can be a tremendous cost to run and maintain it. I would expect to pay for that and would do so if I feel it benefited me.
One thing I love about Logos is the Libronix aspect where everything is searchable. I expect to be able to do that locally on my PC or Mac (or Linux for those who can get it working :-)). AI can supplement that as an option but cannot replace it. I want the retain the ability to do complex searches of texts on my own.
I look forward to hearing more and hope to see more responses from Logos in the conversation.
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I do appreciate the responses from Bradley Grainger as well.
I'm glad to see there being more of a discussion going on now and that's great.
We all have different things we want from Logos and I am also willing to have open discussion with Logos about possible solutions etc.
I would suggest keeping the AI based stuff clearly as a subscription-based add-on as that does make sense. I am somewhat familiar with AI and understand there can be a tremendous cost to run and maintain it. I would expect to pay for that and would do so if I feel it benefited me.
One thing I love about Logos is the Libronix aspect where everything is searchable. I expect to be able to do that locally on my PC or Mac (or Linux for those who can get it working :-)). AI can supplement that as an option but cannot replace it. I want the retain the ability to do complex searches of texts on my own.
I look forward to hearing more and hope to see more responses from Logos in the conversation.
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This is a great explanation. Most software you either own (and locked in time, legacy model), or it is continually updated through a subscription. I run a VM on my MacBook (Parallels), and it has an annual cost to keeping it updated...they have moved to a subscription model a few years ago (along with their competitor).
I think a legitimate concern is those of us with a large library can't easily walk away if the pricing becomes unsustainable. However, if I understand the assurances already provided, our books stay no matter what, and Logos is committed to ensuring we can access these books in Logos with the core features we have already purchased without a subscription.
The real questions going forward:
- Will the regular and beneficial updates come as planned with a subscription? (no reason to assume otherwise)
- What will it cost me? And can I justify the cost? Does it seem like a good value?
- Will there continue to be new bundles of books (resources) offered? (annually, bi-annually, etc,) Or does the concept of legacy libraries end with v. 10?
- If I cancel my subscription what does it feel like? Purgatory or a the latest code base without features/enhancements after the subscription ends? Or does it revert back 10 years, or does it go back somewhere in between?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
And not a single good one against continuing the traditional upgrade as an option to those who have no desire in a subscription.... We have heard a lot about sustainability.... Again, how does leaving money on the table or pushing away long time customers benefit long term sustainability?
At the risk of stating the obvious, it's not sustainable to commit to an unbounded amount of future work (updating features to be compatible with new hardware and software, making improvements, running the servers, managing security patches, etc.) for a one-time payment (i.e., a perpetual feature license) now.
Sure, selling perpetual feature licenses for Logos 11 would bring in revenue (one time) in 2024. But it would create the ongoing liability and expense of maintaining those features in 2025, and 2026, and 2027, and ... "forever".
We're not just thinking about the fourth quarter results. We're trying to build a sustainable business that's here to serve you 5, 10, 15 years from now. (And no, the business isn't in trouble. We're doing well. We just want to be sure we're around for the long term.)
If you're asking to buy a feature for a one-time payment of $19.99 now but expect all future updates for free (including the port to Neuralink devices that we'll all be wearing in the 2030s? 😀) ... well, that sounds like a great deal but I just don't know how to make the numbers pencil out.
(And before you say, "yes but you promised that we'll always have access to our books and you sell those as a one-time purchase", there are completely different economies of scale going on there. We have hundreds of thousands of ebooks to amortise the cost across, and a mature codebase that doesn't need many updates and has already been optimized for portability to different platforms.)
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Frank Sauer said:
And not a single good one against continuing the traditional upgrade as an option to those who have no desire in a subscription.... We have heard a lot about sustainability.... Again, how does leaving money on the table or pushing away long time customers benefit long term sustainability?
At the risk of stating the obvious, it's not sustainable to commit to an unbounded amount of future work (updating features to be compatible with new hardware and software, making improvements, running the servers, managing security patches, etc.) for a one-time payment (i.e., a perpetual feature license) now.
Sure, selling perpetual feature licenses for Logos 11 would bring in revenue (one time) in 2024. But it would create the ongoing liability and expense of maintaining those features in 2025, and 2026, and 2027, and ... "forever".
We're not just thinking about the fourth quarter results. We're trying to build a sustainable business that's here to serve you 5, 10, 15 years from now. (And no, the business isn't in trouble. We're doing well. We just want to be sure we're around for the long term.)
If you're asking to buy a feature for a one-time payment of $19.99 now but expect all future updates for free (including the port to Neuralink devices that we'll all be wearing in the 2030s? 😀) ... well, that sounds like a great deal but I just don't know how to make the numbers pencil out.
(And before you say, "yes but you promised that we'll always have access to our books and you sell those as a one-time purchase", there are completely different economies of scale going on there. We have hundreds of thousands of ebooks to amortise the cost across, and a mature codebase that doesn't need many updates and has already been optimized for portability to different platforms.)
I would say my response to your statement here would be in this realm....
If the choice is receive revenue from the users (many long term and some of whom have been free word of mouth or doing presentations to "sell" Logos) that will only buy to own and not subscribe or not receive their revenue at all.... Wouldn't having their revenue and continued customer loyalty be worth it???
I recognize you mentioned the ongoing cost for a one time payment.... A little misleading here - as the ongoing maintenance will be done anyway for those subscribing anyway.... The cost of ownership has always been a bit higher than say Logos Now over an upgrade cycle - so I don't see the logic in any argument that leaving money on the table and pushing away customers that are willing to pay, when the work will be getting done anyway...
As for the pay once and get a decade of updates.... Sure, there is likely a customer base that falls into that category, but many of us upgrade just about every upgrade cycle, so at worst, the every two years users were dropping a nice upgrade payment on the table.
As for the "forever" - I've said multiple times that it falls on Logos for continuing to market Features in that manner.... Not only on the marketing pages of the website, but also in Mark's posts.... If Logos doesn't want to hear about that, or if it is impossible to honor - it is an easy fix.... Remove the word from the marketing and stop ensuring that in posts, emails and "promises".... As I have mentioned in other posts, it has been recognized as not being honored with deprecated features in the past, but we usually looked past it because we enjoyed and wanted to support Logos.... But now more and more it sounds like eventually we WILL have to subscribe to continue reading our books based on some of your statements.... Which we were always assured that with purchase we would always be able to access our resources - but some of your comments point towards potential issues with maintaining the free updates ongoing - so what happens to our investment in our books? Does there come a time that we are told that the only way to access them is paying for an updated engine - even if we don't want new features? Does Logos in that case provide a tool for us to convert our library so we can use it in Calibre, Kindle or Play Books? These are the concerns that are creeping in for some and yes we have been given assurances that we will always have access to our books and features - but some of your comments sound like that may not be possible as well - thus the level of concern and confusion that has arisen.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Assuming it wasn’t discussed and missed in a wall of text, there is a hybrid model out there some of my software uses. It has three options:
1. Subscription Only: You have everything, including new feature, up to date, but it quits working if you stop paying. (Much like Office 365).
2. Standalone Purchase: You pay once, own the software, but only get maintenance updates. If you want the new features, you have to buy the next upgraded version when it comes out. (Much like Logos has been up to now, and can still currently get from MS Office).
3. Annual Pass: You own what you paid for, and pay for the feature updates In an annual fee. However, if you discontinue the annual payment, your software rolls back to what you outright own. You are free to make a standalone purchase of the most recent version of course. (Celsys, publisher of Clip Studio adds this option).
While I prefer the standalone version practiced by Logos in the past, I could see myself taking up the annual pass option for the tools. But the ability to permanently own maintained and accessible books is a non-negotiable for me. If that was ever discontinued, I would consider it unethical behavior on the part of Logos.
The worst option would be if Logos followed the Adobe model that eventually prices all but the wealthiest users out.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Logos is a computer aid for Bible study; it is not Bible study per se. Bible study still requires non-computational skills like reading and thinking, which software simply augments.
Frankly (for me, anyway), this isn't about the money or the delivery method; it's about the utility of the software in making my decidedly analog study methods more profitable. ANY software that aids my study is worthwhile, but in the end it is not necessary because I still have to do the work.
Knowing that Logos is not a necessity for studying the Bible makes my decision to keep it in whatever form it comes easier. I will keep Logos because it is truly amazing compared to NOT having Logos (e.g., I find the AI Smart Search quite useful), paying whatever is necessary as long as I can afford it, and knowing that, if I must set aside either presumed method of upgrading, I can still study Scripture the "old-fashioned" way.
And I'm reasonably certain we won't need Logos in eternity.
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Logos is a computer aid for Bible study; it is not Bible study per se. Bible study still requires non-computational skills like reading and thinking, which software simply augments.
Frankly (for me, anyway), this isn't about the money or the delivery method; it's about the utility of the software in making my decidedly analog study methods more profitable. ANY software that aids my study is worthwhile, but in the end it is not necessary because I still have to do the work.
Knowing that Logos is not a necessity for studying the Bible makes my decision to keep it in whatever form it comes easier. I will keep Logos because it is truly amazing compared to NOT having Logos (e.g., I find the AI Smart Search quite useful), paying whatever is necessary as long as I can afford it, and knowing that, if I must set aside either presumed method of upgrading, I can still study Scripture the "old-fashioned" way.
And I'm reasonably certain we won't need Logos in eternity.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Let's say (and I am completely making this up) that based on user feedback and usage stats we decide that Bibliography Documents, Clippings Documents, and Notes are really three views of "the same thing" that are needlessly separated in the UI. (*waves hands wildly* A Bibliography is just a list of citations from the notes in a particular Notebook, and Clippings is just a view of a Notebook that focuses on the excerpted text rather than the note taken on it.) And let's say we believe we can combine all three into one UI that has a better overall user experience.
It's off-topic, but I would LOVE it if you did this.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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MJ. Smith said:
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
[Y][Y]
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
There are a lot of software companies that offer this model even in 2024. They have figured this out, so I would think Logos could as well, if they wanted to. Foxit is a major one we use at work, we buy the perpetual licenses and get modest new features added every few months for free until the next version comes out with “major” feature upgrades. The Office 2021 perpetual license is the same way. This model certainly isn’t going anywhere.
That being said, they are not PE backed, and if they are anything like the PE firm I previously worked for, the PE takeover of Logos was done for a reason…to capitalize on untapped profit opportunity.
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Frank Sauer said:
But now more and more it sounds like eventually we WILL have to subscribe to continue reading our books based on some of your statements.... Which we were always assured that with purchase we would always be able to access our resources - but some of your comments point towards potential issues with maintaining the free updates ongoing - so what happens to our investment in our books?
To be clear: this is not what I'm saying. I'm not contradicting (or even hinting at a change from) what Mark has already said:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books.
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Therefore, you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Or take a "true" software feature like instant Light/Dark mode switching. Due to the complexity of our platform, this took significant developer effort to implement across all UI components. This is something we might have traditionally sold as part of a Full Feature Upgrade every two years. Because subscription provides incremental revenue for us now, we were able to launch that to subscribers early as a perk (instead of holding it back till Fall). When we did that, we received a number of complaints saying (paraphrasing) that it should have been implemented that way from the beginning and that it should be given away free to all L10 users today. That would be nice, I agree! But we can't pay our developers today with the sales revenue from two years ago. So this leads to a number of unsatisfying possibilities: (1) don't include Dark Mode in L10 at all, until it can be completely "finished" to avoid complaints about shipping incomplete features; (2) ship features in phases, but those phases have to ship two years apart because every two years is the only time we can sell new things; (3) charge more for the Logos 10 Full Feature Set for the promise of things that might come later but haven't even been started yet; (4) develop expensive software features with no business plan for how we'll recoup our investment and then give them away for free; (5) cut costs, lay off our software engineering teams, and slow development to a crawl.
Option 3 is exactly what Logos has already been doing though? How many reverse interlinears are included in the launch packages but then dont get shipped until 6 months later? I know I paid for LGC resources in previous packages at the time of launch that Doug Magnum posted hadn’t even really been started yet. It’s essentially the same crowdfunding model that businesses use on Kickstarter, so it does work and is quite popular With consumers. I’d rather buy in advance and wait for it if it means I will own it forever.
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Frank Sauer said:
If the choice is receive revenue from the users (many long term and some of whom have been free word of mouth or doing presentations to "sell" Logos) that will only buy to own and not subscribe or not receive their revenue at all.... Wouldn't having their revenue and continued customer loyalty be worth it???
You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"
(I know we're not Netflix and you don't subscribe to books. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't necessarily make sense to offer perpetual access to something with variable costs for a fixed one-time fee.)
Frank Sauer said:As for the "forever" - I've said multiple times that it falls on Logos for continuing to market Features in that manner.... Not only on the marketing pages of the website, but also in Mark's posts.... If Logos doesn't want to hear about that, or if it is impossible to honor - it is an easy fix.... Remove the word from the marketing and stop ensuring that in posts, emails and "promises"....
Does removing that word solve the problem, though? I thought you were the one asking for the "traditional purchase model". If we said "the traditional purchase model is back but you don't own things forever", would you not object that that's not what you asked for? Are you not the one actually asking to own things "forever"? What is it you want to buy if not a perpetual license?
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"
Your logic is quite right. The problem, viewing from 'outside':
- FL says they're in great financial shape. Indeed, throwing money at less optimal opportunities, recently.
- The timing looks like the PE is whispering new successful strategies (more than whispering)
- FL subscriptioning hasn't been the stellar experience Phil talks of; track record.
- The customer base has become trained to major sales, and ownership (on their respective computers)
The subscription logic is there; it just doesn't fit FL's present. Except for one factor: 'want more money'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks, Bradley, for your patient explanations here and in the other thread(s).
I don’t know if it was mentioned before, but I’d like to re-iterate (?) my questions:
- What is the foreseeable approach with existing resources in Logos like inter-linking amongst them, tagging, bug removement etc. [in a subscription-based future]?
- What about items like the above mentioned LGC, for which somebody already paid, but still waiting for roll-out?
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DMB said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"
Your logic is quite right. The problem, viewing from 'outside':
- FL says they're in great financial shape. Indeed, throwing money at less optimal opportunities, recently.
- The timing looks like the PE is whispering new successful strategies (more than whispering)
- FL subscriptioning hasn't been the stellar experience Phil talks of; track record.
- The customer base has become trained to major sales, and ownership (on their respective computers)
The subscription logic is there; it just doesn't fit FL's present. Except for one factor: 'want more money'.
Many times, DMB, what you write has many meanings possible, leaving me impossible. Kinda like going thru the song 'American Pie' in school. What does ol' Don really mean?? Why was that levee dry? And rye is a whiskey [espec. in Canada here]. To me, as a poet, it was a throw away line [whiskey + rye] to rhyme with dry; one does this because one can't think of a better one. I wuda put: 'Shakin' a fist at the sky.' One more syllable, but when singing one can jumble it in.
Here, above, I hear you 100%. Thank you for your 'just de facts' appraisal of L-world.
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MJ. Smith said:Jon said:
Hopefully they will have an actual update for us tomorrow.
I hope not. I'm not up to a few hundred more examples of the hermeneutics of forumites re: Logos posts. [Actually, I skip many of them but try to read at least one from each author.] On a more generic sense, I would not want them to commit to what will be available in the Fall when they make their detailed announcement. Fencing themselves in too early results in releasing unfinished features or half complete reworking of interfaces.
I get what you’re saying, and I don’t disagree, but then Logos shouldn’t be telling people they will have an announcement out about perpetual licenses by the end of May, and then release a non-update saying ”we’re still figuring this out.” Better to not promise an announcement at all?
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scooter said:
Kinda like going thru the song 'American Pie' in school. What does ol' Don really mean?? Why was that levee dry? And rye is a whiskey [espec. in Canada here]. To me, as a poet, it was a throw away line [whiskey + rye] to rhyme with dry; one does this because one can't think of a better one. I wuda put: 'Shakin' a fist at the sky.' One more syllable, but when singing one can jumble it in.
Agree on 'Don, what?!'. But having spent much time on those levees (Cajun accordian playing in hot Louisiana mornings), the heat just settles in, and swallows you up. Whiskey, yes. Rye? You're right. But never a fist at the sky; energy is draining. Very similar, at Horsehead Crossing in West Texas. Swallows you up, and you see life.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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NichtnurBibellleser said:
- What is the foreseeable approach with existing resources in Logos like inter-linking amongst them, tagging, bug removement etc. [in a subscription-based future]?
There are no official plans for if/how that will change in a subscription-based future.
You and I could both speculate about what might be possible, e.g., could "enhanced tagging" be a feature included in the "Pro" tier? I suppose so, but it's not something we've announced. Crowdsourcing tags is brought up on the forums regularly, too; if we went that way, it probably makes more sense to put those tools in all users' hands, rather than make them part of a subscription tier? Again, I'm just speculating, none of this has been announced.
Regarding "bug removement", if the bugs are errors we've introduced into the book (and not something in the publisher's original material) then I believe the plan is still to continue collecting typo reports (as we do now) and periodically release free updates to fix them. (Ebooks, which are marketed as "fully automated conversion into Logos format with best-effort automated tagging" are handled differently, and don't typically receive any updates unless they're upgraded to Reader or Research Editions.)
NichtnurBibellleser said:- What about items like the above mentioned LGC, for which somebody already paid, but still waiting for roll-out?
As far as I know, those books are still under development and will be released to customers who purchased them when they're done.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
If the choice is receive revenue from the users (many long term and some of whom have been free word of mouth or doing presentations to "sell" Logos) that will only buy to own and not subscribe or not receive their revenue at all.... Wouldn't having their revenue and continued customer loyalty be worth it???
You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"
(I know we're not Netflix and you don't subscribe to books. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't necessarily make sense to offer perpetual access to something with variable costs for a fixed one-time fee.)
Frank Sauer said:As for the "forever" - I've said multiple times that it falls on Logos for continuing to market Features in that manner.... Not only on the marketing pages of the website, but also in Mark's posts.... If Logos doesn't want to hear about that, or if it is impossible to honor - it is an easy fix.... Remove the word from the marketing and stop ensuring that in posts, emails and "promises"....
Does removing that word solve the problem, though? I thought you were the one asking for the "traditional purchase model". If we said "the traditional purchase model is back but you don't own things forever", would you not object that that's not what you asked for? Are you not the one actually asking to own things "forever"? What is it you want to buy if not a perpetual license?
A quite imperfect analogy.... NOWHERE have I asked for anything near that stupid in the analogy... Wanting a perpetual license and recognizing that forever hasn't been honored ... But still upgrading as I have is nothing compared to what you have continued to seem to insinuate I am looking for ...
I have been clear over and over.... I've contacted you via message and left you my number since for some reason you seem to not get what my posts are saying.... Yet more misrepresenting....
Have fun
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
I have been clear over and over.... I've contacted you via message and left you my number since for some reason you seem to not get what my posts are saying.... Yet more misrepresenting....
What I've heard you say is, "continue the traditional upgrade avenue that has existed. The same way we upgraded from Libronix, to L4, to L5 and so on to L10.... However, the model that has been used for as long as I have been a customer shouldn't be abolished, a combination of the "legacy" purchase option alongside the new subscription model would give the widest base of satisfied customers."
In my posts, I've been trying to work through the implications of that model and why we don't think it's a good business idea in the future, and why Mark said "Later this year, we’ll launch the next version of Logos as a subscription." I'm sorry if you feel I've been misrepresenting you; I've tried to avoid "so what you're saying is..." and instead ask, "is this what you're really asking for?". I see that hasn't come across clearly.
As far as I can tell, the conversation boils down to this: I say, "Here's our rationale for subscription", then you reply, "I disagree and you should keep the old business model." We seem to be at an impasse.
I'll just leave you with the latest official announcement from the FAQ: "Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model. We’re still working out the details of how everything will come together. However, the focus will be on the subscription product."
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
However, the focus will be on the subscription product.
"
Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?
Blessings in Christ.
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Tes said:
Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?
No one in the computer applications arena is foolish enough to have an ultimate goal. The current goal is to be oriented towards a subscription plan with some workable ownership option for a subset of features.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tes said:
Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?
It sounds to me that this is not only the goal, but also the firmly determined plan going forward. Based on this conversation it is becoming more clear that the likelihood of a traditional purchase option in the Fall is quite small. It seems anyone who wants to continue enjoying a recent edition of Logos is likely to have only one option: subscription. I like that feature ownership will be available for subscribers, and the rationale in this thread for subscription largely makes sense (though it seems to me that very little effort is being put into trying to understand opposing arguments concerning why there may yet still be a place for a traditional purchase option. Most of the counter-arguments have been exaggerated to the point of not taking the rationale for a partial incorporation of the traditional purchase model seriously). Nonetheless, I am personally just fine with a subscription model going forward. The market is pushing Logos to incorporate many expenses in the software development and support realm that were not present 10 years ago, and a subscription is the easiest way to solve this problem.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Tes said:
Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?
It sounds to me that this is not only the goal, but also the firmly determined plan going forward. Based on this conversation it is becoming more clear that the likelihood of a traditional purchase option in the Fall is quite small. It seems anyone who wants to continue enjoying a recent edition of Logos is likely to have only one option: subscription. I like that feature ownership will be available for subscribers, and the rationale in this thread for subscription largely makes sense (though it seems to me that very little effort is being put into trying to understand opposing arguments concerning why there may yet still be a place for a traditional purchase option. Most of the counter-arguments have been exaggerated to the point of not taking the rationale for a partial incorporation of the traditional purchase model seriously). Nonetheless, I am personally just fine with a subscription model going forward. The market is pushing Logos to incorporate many expenses in the software development and support realm that were not present 10 years ago, and a subscription is the easiest way to solve this problem.
There is a binding of the subscription, with no option left to enjoy the software as it used to be.
Blessings in Christ.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Tes said:
Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?
It sounds to me that this is not only the goal, but also the firmly determined plan going forward. Based on this conversation it is becoming more clear that the likelihood of a traditional purchase option in the Fall is quite small. It seems anyone who wants to continue enjoying a recent edition of Logos is likely to have only one option: subscription. I like that feature ownership will be available for subscribers, and the rationale in this thread for subscription largely makes sense (though it seems to me that very little effort is being put into trying to understand opposing arguments concerning why there may yet still be a place for a traditional purchase option. Most of the counter-arguments have been exaggerated to the point of not taking the rationale for a partial incorporation of the traditional purchase model seriously). Nonetheless, I am personally just fine with a subscription model going forward. The market is pushing Logos to incorporate many expenses in the software development and support realm that were not present 10 years ago, and a subscription is the easiest way to solve this problem.
Not taken seriously, mocked, misrepresented.... It is appreciated that it is noticed
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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And I would dare say that the majority of customers are currently not on subscriptions. I'd like to see proof otherwise. I sense some gaslighting going on here. But it is consistent with their new masters, Cove Hill Partners. They bought Logos because it is profitable, not to help them out of trouble. Their focus is below, as per their webpage.
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If Logos subscription is that high I will drop it in a heart beat.Steven MacDonald said:There have been a lot of good points brought up on both sides of the subscription issue.
Just a quick thought. The $10 per month people keep mentioning is going to be the minimum people will pay for the cheapest subscription. And that only applies to those of us who already purchased the Logos 10 full feature set. New customers will pay more.
There are two other tiers mentioned that they have not given any details as of yet.
I would be shocked if each tier did not include additional features so if I want all of the new features I would have to pay the top tier price.
If, for example, that price is $35 monthly, just a guess, then I would pay far more over 2 years than if I simply did a normal Logos 11 feature upgrade.
And even after paying all of that money, all of those new features would disappear if I stopped paying.
So far we have only seen the Pro tier. It will be interesting to see what the Pro Max and the Pro Max Ultra look like and cost.
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I subscription I'd be willing to pay for, is to have access to all the Mobile Ed Courses, like how Zondervan Academic has subscription access to all of theirs.
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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Joey Midgett said:
If Logos subscription is that high I will drop it in a heart beat.Steven MacDonald said:There have been a lot of good points brought up on both sides of the subscription issue.
Just a quick thought. The $10 per month people keep mentioning is going to be the minimum people will pay for the cheapest subscription. And that only applies to those of us who already purchased the Logos 10 full feature set. New customers will pay more.
There are two other tiers mentioned that they have not given any details as of yet.
I would be shocked if each tier did not include additional features so if I want all of the new features I would have to pay the top tier price.
If, for example, that price is $35 monthly, just a guess, then I would pay far more over 2 years than if I simply did a normal Logos 11 feature upgrade.
And even after paying all of that money, all of those new features would disappear if I stopped paying.
So far we have only seen the Pro tier. It will be interesting to see what the Pro Max and the Pro Max Ultra look like and cost.
Remember, there are going to be multiple subscription tiers, presumably with different price points. From the "Here's the inside scoop" email I received, "That’s why later this year, we’ll be launching 3 subscription tiers designed to fit the main ways people use Logos: small group prep (Logos Premium), sermon prep (Logos Pro), and academic and original language study (Logos Max). Our hope is to give users exactly what they need—no more, no less. We want users to feel like your Logos subscription is exactly right-sized for their specific use case."
I'm really waiting to find out more about what each tier contains and costs, as well as what prerequisites we will need before I really make up my mind either way. In the meantime. I'm going to enjoy Logos.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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NathanL said:
I subscription I'd be willing to pay for, is to have access to all the Mobile Ed Courses, like how Zondervan Academic has subscription access to all of theirs.
They had a high priced subscription but they chose which courses you had access to every month! That’s why I never even considered subscribing.
DAL
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Jonathan Bradley said:
academic and original language study (Logos Max). Our hope is to give users exactly what they need—no more, no less. We want users to feel like your Logos subscription is exactly right-sized for their specific use case.
Yeah, see this is the problem: I'll be most interested in the academic tier, which will be the most expensive. I'm sure it will include all the stuff from the other tiers--stuff that I'm least likely to use. So, I'd have to pay the $25 or $35 or whatever to get it, but I'm not going to.
There's a bit of a fallacy at work here with Logos--and not just here. Pastors and Christian academics may have greater needs and be willing to spend more on Logos than casual, non-professional users, but they won't necessarily be able to afford more than those users. I'm certain that the underlined bit won't be the case for me. I don't want to have to take on stuff like Mobile Ed or Faithlife TV or whatnot that they'll bundle along with the original language and theological tools to make it "Max," but I doubt there'll be an option like that. I'm willing to give Logos a chunk of money every two years to keep my software up to date with the latest advancements but not take on a perpetual subscription for a bunch of stuff that I don't need with that likely price tag.
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Sean said:Jonathan Bradley said:
... Our hope is to give users exactly what they need—no more, no less. We want users to feel like your Logos subscription is exactly right-sized for their specific use case.
Yeah, see this is the problem: I'll be most interested in the academic tier, which will be the most expensive. I'm sure it will include all the stuff from the other tiers--stuff that I'm least likely to use. So, I'd have to pay the $25 or $35 or whatever to get it, but I'm not going to.
Seems like we have had something similar in the existing purchase model ... quite a number of features, datasets, etc. were listed on the website with an amount for "price if purchased separately, but then were only available as part of a base package, etc. I was looking for a dataset/feature in the past, found it had a price of $7,99 ... but to get it, the least expensive package was $74,50 (calculating in the dynamic pricing in my case).
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Sean said:Jonathan Bradley said:
academic and original language study (Logos Max). Our hope is to give users exactly what they need—no more, no less. We want users to feel like your Logos subscription is exactly right-sized for their specific use case.
Yeah, see this is the problem: I'll be most interested in the academic tier, which will be the most expensive. I'm sure it will include all the stuff from the other tiers--stuff that I'm least likely to use. So, I'd have to pay the $25 or $35 or whatever to get it, but I'm not going to.
There's a bit of a fallacy at work here with Logos--and not just here. Pastors and Christian academics may have greater needs and be willing to spend price tag.
I wondered about that. It's been why I stopped buying full-features since maybe L8 .... basically just packed with 'stuff'. And I'm getting the impression FL's OL expertise is now just doing RI's and creating more commentaries. But the unfortunate part (just guessing) is the top tier will be aimed squarely at students. Premium pricing. Maybe I'll be wrong. Induce the colleges to sign on, with discounts.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Sean said:
Yeah, see this is the problem: I'll be most interested in the academic tier, which will be the most expensive. I'm sure it will include all the stuff from the other tiers--stuff that I'm least likely to use. So, I'd have to pay the $25 or $35 or whatever to get it, but I'm not going to.
There's a bit of a fallacy at work here with Logos--and not just here. Pastors and Christian academics may have greater needs and be willing to spend more on Logos than casual, non-professional users, but they won't necessarily be able to afford more than those users.
I think this is an interesting observation that Logos should take into account. Setting up the subscriptions could maybe be a number of building blocks rather than the matryoshka-system of base packages where the larger always contains all of the smaller ones. I personally am an interested layman who likes to read academic stuff, but I have absolutely no use for anything related to delivering sermons. Others in the Logos user base will be exactly the opposite.
Have joy in the Lord!
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