a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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DAL said:
Welcome to the family! You’re thread has racked up 14 pages already and it’s a fun thread too
👍😁👌
DAL
Funny how constructive engagement fosters conversation! [;)]
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Joseph Sollenberger said:
Thank you Rick and Mark for the Double and Triple click information. I have just changed them to match my muscle memory.
[Y]
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I agree completely, and speaking of which, I have been watching "new to Logos" type videos, and I have two questions so far. [:)]Mark Allison said:Joseph Sollenberger said:Thank you Rick and Mark for the Double and Triple click information. I have just changed them to match my muscle memory.
1) The presenter opened her library and I noticed that some of the resources have circles, and some don't. What do these mean?
2) She was going over the Factbook, and it started sounding like Accordance Research. However, the more she spoke, it seems different. It appears that Accordance Research is finding EVERYTHING you have about your word, while the Logos Factbook is finding sections FROM ALL you have, but not everything from everywhere. Thus, while both programs pull from all you have, the Accordance Research is more in depth. Is this correct?
p.s. - I just noticed how fuzzy that pic is, I guess since it is from the webinar? Anyway, sorry for the quality.
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Here's another cool tip. If you click on the "Visual Filters" button for a fairly complex resource like BDAG, select "Reformat—>Outline Formatting" and it will indent everything in a very easy-to-read way.
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Kristin said:
2) She was going over the Factbook, and it started sounding like Accordance Research. However, the more she spoke, it seems different. It appears that Accordance Research is finding EVERYTHING you have about your word, while the Logos Factbook is finding sections FROM ALL you have, but not everything from everywhere. Thus, while both programs pull from all you have, the Accordance Research is more in depth. Is this correct?
Factbook in Logos is not the same as Accordance Research. For the equivalent, go to Search. You can search under Books in Greek, Hebrew, English, etc. This will search just your library. Search under All if you want to search every title Logos offers. You can create Resource Collections to search just particular subsets of books, similar to Accordance Groups.
By the way, I'm not certain what the circles are in your image. My library doesn't have that. Someone will know. Perhaps those are books that have not been downloaded.
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist • Logos Bible Software • Rick.Mansfield@logos.com
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Kristin said:
2) She was going over the Factbook, and it started sounding like Accordance Research. However, the more she spoke, it seems different. It appears that Accordance Research is finding EVERYTHING you have about your word, while the Logos Factbook is finding sections FROM ALL you have, but not everything from everywhere. Thus, while both programs pull from all you have, the Accordance Research is more in depth. Is this correct?
Yes, that's correct. But Factbook isn't really the equivalent of Research. Factbook is intended to give you information, like an overview of whatever you looked up. If you want exhaustive searching, use the Search tool instead. And Collections are the equivalent of My Groups. Use them to make your searches better.
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Mark Allison said:
Here's another cool tip. If you click on the "Visual Filters" button for a fairly complex resource like BDAG, select "Reformat—>Outline Formatting" and it will indent everything in a very easy-to-read way.
Mark, that's very helpful. Incorporating this into my workflow.
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Kristin, the little circles in the library tile view relate to the percentage of the book read. The stars allow you to rank that book for later sorting by your own ranking.
--Solly
Joseph F. Sollenberger, Jr.
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Joseph Sollenberger said:
the little circles in the library tile view relate to the percentage of the book read.
Look at that. Even I learn things here! I alway keep my library in Details view, which is why I didn't see the circles; but if I switch to Tile view, they do show up.
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist • Logos Bible Software • Rick.Mansfield@logos.com
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Joseph Sollenberger said:
Kristin, the little circles in the library tile view relate to the percentage of the book read. The stars allow you to rank that book for later sorting by your own ranking.
Thank you. [:)]
Rick Mansfield said:Factbook in Logos is not the same as Accordance Research. For the equivalent, go to Search. You can search under Books in Greek, Hebrew, English, etc.
Hi Rick, Thanks for explaining. So far, to say it is complicated is an understatement. Ever since Mark wrote above about organizing BDAG, I have spent all this time trying to hack into BDAG and HALOT. At first neither were even showing in my library. Then after I followed Mark's screenshot and actually spelled it out, THEN it recognized both. So super strange.
1. The Bible also doesn't have verse numbers. I know this is a simple button, but I can't find how to turn them on.
2. Logos cross-highlights the ESV and NIV, but Logos doesn't cross highlight Greek and Hebrew like Accordance does. Is that correct?
I remember someone said Logos had a sharp learning curve, and they weren't joking. It isn't even intuitive how to delete a parallel. (I have since figured that out).Mark Allison said:That's made Logos feel more comfortable to me. I also had the Double-Click Action set to "Search" which was really annoying. Setting it to "Select word" made a big difference. Interface feels more familiar now :-)
I second that. [:)] Thank you, Rick.
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Look at my Visual Filter settings below and also make sure the texts are using the same letter Link Set.
Joseph F. Sollenberger, Jr.
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Kristin said:
1. The Bible also doesn't have verse numbers. I know this is a simple button, but I can't find how to turn them on.
2. Logos cross-highlights the ESV and NIV, but Logos doesn't cross highlight Greek and Hebrew like Accordance does. Is that correct?
I remember someone said Logos had a sharp learning curve, and they weren't joking. It isn't even intuitive how to delete a parallel. (I have since figured that out).Adding to Joseph:
- Cross highlighting (Corresponding Selection) requires the book be tagged with lemmas, etc. The less used hebrew books, as example, only offer Corresponding Words (highlight in same book). Examples not supported: Quinta, Samaritan, etc
- The ability to format lexicons is a $-feature. And only specific lexicons. More recent lexicons generally don't have the feature.
- In Visual Filters (Bible-related), the 1-Line per verse often turns off non-verse text (Bible-specific). So, if you're missing intro material (blank page), check that setting.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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here is the training video for the visual filters.
Logos 10 Advanced Bible Study Series – Logos Help Center
then go to video number 8
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Kristin said:
2. Logos cross-highlights the ESV and NIV, but Logos doesn't cross highlight Greek and Hebrew like Accordance does. Is that correct?
Here it's cross-highlighting (after word-selection) for NIV11, BHS, NRSVue, and LXX.
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Joseph Sollenberger said:
Look at my Visual Filter settings below and also make sure the texts are using the same letter Link Set.
Thank you, Joseph, your screenshot was helpful and fixed it. [:)]
DMB said:- Cross highlighting (Corresponding Selection) requires the book be tagged with lemmas, etc. The less used hebrew books, as example, only offer Corresponding Words (highlight in same book). Examples not supported: Quinta, Samaritan, etc
Hi DMB, I think I have what Jonathan has, so I am still not sure what is going on. I will attach a screenshot.
DMB said:- The ability to format lexicons is a $-feature. And only specific lexicons. More recent lexicons generally don't have the feature.
- In Visual Filters (Bible-related), the 1-Line per verse often turns off non-verse text (Bible-specific). So, if you're missing intro material (blank page), check that setting.
Thank you for clarifying this.
Bobby Terhune said:here is the training video for the visual filters.
Logos 10 Advanced Bible Study Series – Logos Help Center
then go to video number 8
Thank you, Bobby. [:)]
Hi Jonathan, as I briefly mentioned above to DMB, I am not sure why mine is different from yours. Thank you for the screenshot, and here is mine where it is not working like yours.Jonathan Huber said:Here it's cross-highlighting (after word-selection) for NIV11, BHS, NRSVue, and LXX.
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Whatever else you have checked in "Corresponding words," make sure you also have "Same word" checked.Kristin said:Hi Jonathan, as I briefly mentioned above to DMB, I am not sure why mine is different from yours. Thank you for the screenshot, and here is mine where it is not working like yours.
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Mark Allison said:
Whatever else you have checked in "Corresponding words," make sure you also have "Same word" checked.
Hi Mark,
That fixed it. [:)] Thank you for the screenshot.
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Excellent! Thank you to all for your suggestions. When first opening Logos, I thought how wonderful it would be if someone could make a webinar about "you know those things you do all the time in Accordance? here's how to do them here." This thread has kinda become that.
But hands-down my favorite part of Logos so far is that factbook/search works on mobile. The ability to work with my whole library on the go with my iPad is HUGE for me. Really liking that.
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Jonathan Huber said:
But hands-down my favorite part of Logos so far is that factbook/search works on mobile. The ability to work with my whole library on the go with my iPad is HUGE for me. Really liking that.
Agreed. I love Logos' dedication to mobile and the web. They're constantly being updated and are miles head of the competition.
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Mark Allison said:
I love Logos' dedication to mobile and the web. They're constantly being updated and are miles head of the competition.
I don't really have a need for web or mobile, but I agree. My impression is that Logos is miles ahead in web (enough that I feel like Accordance is wasting energy which should be instead devoted to fixing corruption issues), but at the same time, Accordance is miles ahead in making original language research easy. Also, Logos really has nothing like the txt User Bible which I use literally every day. I thus don't even really feel like the two are direct competitors, as they both excel at different aspects.
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Jonathan Huber said:
When first opening Logos, I thought how wonderful it would be if someone could make a webinar about "you know those things you do all the time in Accordance? here's how to do them here." This thread has kinda become that.
I am glad to hear that! [Y] That is of course how I feel too, btw. [:)]
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Kristin said:
Logos really has nothing like the txt User Bible which I use literally every day
Agreed. This is an area where Accordance is WAY ahead, and it probably speaks to the origins of both companies. Historically, Logos targeted the pastoral market, and Accordance targeted the academic market. During the past decade, both companies have started to meet somewhere in the middle. But "User Tools/Bibles" (pardon my Accordance lingo) is an area that Logos should (imho) invest some time developing, especially if they want to be more attractive to Accordance users currently on the fence.
It would probably make a great Logos subscription feature [;)]0 -
Mark Allison said:
ut "User Tools/Bibles" (pardon my Accordance lingo) is an area that Logos should (imho) invest some time developing, especially if they want to be more attractive to Accordance users currently on the fence.
I agree 100%. It is so simple, I truly don't understand why they ONLY offer this convoluted html formatted thing in a docx format for a Mac user. [*-)]
Mark Allison said:It would probably make a great Logos subscription feature
Nooooooooo! Subscriptions are sneaky little monsters [6]. Also, being 100% serious, if they are going to use it to attract Accordance users, they can't realistically say you need to pay a subscription to import a txt document. Especially when you don't need to do that type of nonsense with Accordance. To be honest, the threat of going subscription based provoked me to take the plunge and get Logos 10, simply so I can avoid subscriptions.
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Kristin said:
Especially when you don't need to do that type of nonsense with Accordance.
Don't forget the partnership between SIL and Logos ... Logos would assume a personal translation would be done in the SIL environment (Software Products - SIL Language Technology).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kristin said:
the threat of going subscription based provoked me to take the plunge and get Logos 10, simply so I can avoid subscriptions.
This is a perfectly understandable decision. I only offer one word of counsel: At some point in the future, yet to be determined, the subscription discount for logos 10 owners will likely go away. I would advise you to give it a serious try (at least the 30-day trial) before that happens. Otherwise, it will cost you a whole lot more to jump onboard if you ever feel compelled to subscribe in the future.
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MJ. Smith said:
Don't forget the partnership between SIL and Logos ...
Hi MJ. Smith,
To be honest, I'm really not that familiar with Logos, and have only used it for the first time after downloading the free version a few weeks ago. So I was not aware of that connection, or any partnerships for that matter. Thank you for the link and I will check it out. [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:
Don't forget the partnership between SIL and Logos ... Logos would assume a personal translation would be done in the SIL environment
Last time I checked (and it's been a LONG time) most of the SIL tools were Windows only.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
At some point in the future, yet to be determined, the subscription discount for logos 10 owners will likely go away. I would advise you to give it a serious try (at least the 30-day trial) before that happens.
Hi Aaron,
Thank you for the advice. To be honest, I probably won't, as I have an evasion toward subscriptions, bible or otherwise. I genuinely appreciate hearing what you wrote though, so thank you.
Mark Allison said:Last time I checked (and it's been a LONG time) most of the SIL tools were Windows only.
That would be important.
I am not familiar with SIL at all, and when I hear it, I hear SBL. [:)] While I am still not sure what SIL is (even after going to the website), it sounds like something other than the plain txt file I am using with TextEdit, which I need to continue to use. I might be wrong though about what SIL is.0 -
Mark Allison said:
Last time I checked (and it's been a LONG time) most of the SIL tools were Windows only.
That is likely true but SIL is still an element in decreasing the pressure on Logos to provide translator tools. If they are needed, request them on Roadmap | Logos
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Allison said:
But "User Tools/Bibles" (pardon my Accordance lingo) is an area that Logos should (imho) invest some time developing, especially if they want to be more attractive to Accordance users currently on the fence.
Agree 1000%. Is that possible?
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Michael Hanel said:DAL said:
Welcome to the family! You’re thread has racked up 14 pages already and it’s a fun thread too
👍😁👌
DAL
Funny how constructive engagement fosters conversation!
Yep... we love to talk about our Bible software and even on occasion have a spirited debate!
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Mark Allison said:
Here's another cool tip. If you click on the "Visual Filters" button for a fairly complex resource like BDAG, select "Reformat—>Outline Formatting" and it will indent everything in a very easy-to-read way.
This guy has a few tips for BDAG in Logos that might interest you ....
Greek NT: How to use BDAG (and other Greek lexicons) featuring Logos Bible Software
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MJ. Smith said:
Don't forget the partnership between SIL and Logos ... Logos would assume a personal translation would be done in the SIL environment (Software Products - SIL Language Technology).
Earlier in this thread Dave H posted some sample code of a Logos Personal book containing Bible text. Is this thing you are talking about something different?
Note: I have some experience programming and it looks like it would be a simple task to write a conversion routine from Accordance personal Bible .TXT file to a Logos PBB Bible in the format that Dave described. If it only had to be done once, I could do it in my Ultraedit text editor using regular expressions and search/replace. It would then have to be loaded into some other program to save as .docx format.
I have worked with Bibleworks Version Database compiler, which took a simple text file as input, and it sounds like the Accordance import files are similar.
As far as thinking the Logos way is inferior, keep in mind that Logos is giving you a lot more power in that format. You can add your own tags and such. Others on the forum know a lot more about the PBB capability than I do.
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John said:
If it only had to be done once, I could do it in my Ultraedit text editor
Hi John,
I know this was directed at MJ, but I just wanted to clarify something about my txt file. With the Accordance User Bible, I work on my translation, which is plain text in a txt format, then I upload it to Accordance without needing to mess up my file with any kind of HTML docx format. Then after a few days of working on it, I re-upload it and replace the file. I usually update the file 2 or 3 times a week.
If the text was static, I could see investing the time to do various "replace all" functions, converting it to rich text, then to docx, etc etc, but it is not a static text making it impractical to do multiple times a week, and the base text needs to remain in a plain text txt format.
So I know this doesn't actually address your question to MJ, but I just wanted to mention this in case it is helpful to know.0 -
John said:
Earlier in this thread Dave H posted some sample code of a Logos Personal book containing Bible text. Is this thing you are talking about something different?
Note: I have some experience programming and it looks like it would be a simple task to write a conversion routine from Accordance personal Bible .TXT file to a Logos PBB Bible in the format that Dave described. If it only had to be done once, I could do it in my Ultraedit text editor using regular expressions and search/replace. It would then have to be loaded into some other program to save as .docx format.
I have worked with Bibleworks Version Database compiler, which took a simple text file as input, and it sounds like the Accordance import files are similar.
As far as thinking the Logos way is inferior, keep in mind that Logos is giving you a lot more power in that format. You can add your own tags and such. Others on the forum know a lot more about the PBB capability than I do.
If you are serious about building PBs, you should look at the Files subforum: https://community.logos.com/forums/66.aspx
Some inspiration for PBs can be found on this wiki page https://wiki.logos.com/User_Contributed_Personal_Books which links back to forum threads with hundreds of PB sources. One Logos idea behind PBs was that users would make their own texts usable within Logos - and in a Windows environment, such texts would nearly always be in MS Word format. People do use MS Office or a free compatible program for that. One other idea was that PBs should not be second-class resources but work exactly like Logos resources, which is possible through the use of milestones, indexes and other meta-information which can easily put into a document. See https://wiki.logos.com/Personal_Books for instructions how. Thus you can build your own commentaries, calendar devotionals, lectionaries, lexicons, bibles... It is not the 100% full capability (we can't build interlinear or reverse interlinear bibles, or timelines), but comes very close.
Building a PB bible is quite possible (I haven't done that myself, but have maybe a dozen in my library) and actually there already is a converter that creates a Logos PB source from other formats - I think Michael Schierl from Germany built it and it should be on Github or Sourceforge somewhere. He was even able to build Strongs into one of his PB bibles. When building a PB for a highly milestone-structured text (I've done my share of type:lectionary books over the years) it may be advisable to use Excel or whatever spreadsheet software users on Mac tend to have - or get creative with your tools, since Word format actually is zipped XML.
Note that there's one structural thing for PB bibles and commentaries: Real world bibles have wildly differing verse counting (mostly visible in the Psalms or in some minor prophets, see here for the full scary reality), thus every existing bible in the Logos universe needs to adhere to exactly one verse map for the milestones defining the verse location - this is necessary for the Logos software to make sure your own bible or commentary displays Psalm 12 Verse 3 alongside that other bible or commentary where the same verse is Psalm 11 Verse 4.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
...and actually there already is a converter that creates a Logos PB source from other formats - I think Michael Schierl from Germany built it and it should be on Github or Sourceforge somewhere. He was even able to build Strongs into one of his PB bibles.
https://github.com/schierlm/BibleMultiConverter
It seems to be able to convert files prepared for Accordance.
Alternatively, if you need to do the same search-and-replace functions regularly when converting your file, one way is to use a macro. Might be a bit of a stretch if you haven't used those, but it's a good thing to know anyway ;-)
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This is very, very interesting... we need to build a multi-platform Accordance / Logos wiki page. Maybe it already exists, but I learned something new today.
Every day is a school day! 🙂
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
This is very, very interesting... we need to build a multi-platform Accordance / Logos wiki page. Maybe it already exists, but I learned something new today.
I did Logos wiki for a while (so good, my pages were eventually deleted!). But the point is, you can, and pretty straight-forward (Steve, now departed, helped me). Dave is now, honcho'ing .. I assume he'd want to input into where added, and style guide.
But that said, (no offense), it's a crutch. Imagine me trying to turn Accordance's high-speed magic, into Logos slow-and-go. I'd be wasting Accordance's power features. Same, in the opposite direction.
But the wiki does invite ... go for it.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Rick Mansfield said:
Factbook in Logos is not the same as Accordance Research. For the equivalent, go to Search.
There are search features in Logos that just aren't found in Accordance. For example, you can search by "addressee" in Logos. The speed of the search is pretty impressive too.
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Mark Allison said:
There are search features in Logos that just aren't found in Accordance. For example, you can search by "addressee" in Logos. The speed of the search is pretty impressive too.
That's really interesting. [:)] Thank you for the screenshot!
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The data sets built into Logos allow for some very cool searches. For example Person:Jesus finds where he is referenced by a pronoun and not his name. For me the key to my workflow is my saved layouts. My main layout allows me to focus on the text, but have access easily to my entire library as set up with tags and collections. Logos is very customizable, and as such, can have a longer learning curve to figure out what works best for you.
I have used and owned most of the bible software programs over the years and have settled on Logos as my go to primarily due to the extensive library available. Accordance is second, but I have quit adding resources to it. I have the essential texts and tools so it is useful. They have fallen way behind Logos in terms of resources available (why were the journals never updated?) and basic technology over the web and mobile devices.
Welcome to Logos.
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Mark Allison said:
Last time I checked (and it's been a LONG time) most of the SIL tools were Windows only.
Most Windows software can be run on MacOS using WineHQ. It even works on Apple silicon.
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John Fidel said:
They have fallen way behind Logos in terms of resources available (why were the journals never updated?)
We were told 3-4 years ago that the journals were coming. The latest update is that Nathan has a phone number for someone at Galaxie. 🤷🏻♂️
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Jonathan Huber said:
The latest update is that Nathan has a phone number for someone at Galaxie.
Several years ago, the owner of Galaxie Software was interesting performing the tagging of the journals for use in Accordance. The powers that be thought it would take too much time to train him. So that got put on the back burner, mostly because nobody had the time to work on them (it's a massive project). And that was back when Accordance had triple the number of developers that they do now.
I own all the journals in Accordance and yet I'm buying them all over again in Logos, if that tells you anything about my confidence in Accordance's ability to update this library.0 -
John Fidel said:
The data sets built into Logos allow for some very cool searches.
The datasets in Logos is something that I know I am not fully utilising. It really is a bit like Alice in Wonderland... how deep does this hole go? Endless hours of fun and possibilities.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:John Fidel said:
The data sets built into Logos allow for some very cool searches.
The datasets in Logos is something that I know I am not fully utilising. It really is a bit like Alice in Wonderland... how deep does this hole go? Endless hours of fun and possibilities.
I just learned about the Search sidebar! Lots of cool and easy-to-use options here!
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Mark Allison said:
I own all the journals in Accordance and yet I'm buying them all over again in Logos, if that tells you anything about my confidence in Accordance's ability to update this library.
Also, some of the standard fare that Accordance has always carried such as commentaries and Bibles, is not up to date as well. This is ok on one level because in my current use case I don't need the latest scholarship on a very demanding level, but it is still helpful to have some new titles of interest.
So the question is, if I can't get them at Accordance, then where else do I go? Paper or Kindle is a possibility, but I would prefer for them to be in another Bible software platform, which has always led me to Logos. Overall, Logos has had more resources for many years, so there is nothing new in this. However, it is more noticeable than ever of how far Accordance is now behind in areas that it used to be a lot more up to date, including journals. This doesn't even take into consideration expanding the offering of journals as well.
I don't know what it will take to really turn the tide on this for them, other than more developers. With deliverables like finishing up the features of version 14 and catching up languishing apps, it is not beyond imagination that Accordance will increasingly need to focus on a core set of resources that it must keep up to date. I don't envy their challenges that lie ahead.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The datasets in Logos is something that I know I am not fully utilising. It really is a bit like Alice in Wonderland... how deep does this hole go? Endless hours of fun and possibilities.
haha, for sure the first time I have heard studying the Bible compared to Alice going on a trip. [:)] That said, it can provide both endless hours of fun, and endless hours of frustration. What I have found works best is to do my work like normal in Accordance, then when I need a break to play around with Logos. [:)]
Mark Allison said:I just learned about the Search sidebar! Lots of cool and easy-to-use options here!
Thanks for the screenshot! Super helpful. [:)]
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Mark Allison said:
I just learned about the Search sidebar! Lots of cool and easy-to-use options here!
If you keep this up Mark, you are going to cause me to start to go down another rabbit hole! LOL!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Overall, Logos has had more resources for many years, so there is nothing new in this. However, it is more noticeable than ever of how far Accordance is now behind in areas that it used to be a lot more up to date, including journals. This doesn't even take into consideration expanding the offering of journals as well.
This is really tragic. Are there specific resources besides journals coming to your mind contrasting the two companies?
Donovan R. Palmer said:I don't know what it will take to really turn the tide on this for them, other than more developers. With deliverables like finishing up the features of version 14 and catching up languishing apps, it is not beyond imagination that Accordance will increasingly need to focus on a core set of resources that it must keep up to date. I don't envy their challenges that lie ahead.
I agree 100%. If I were some sort of Accordance advisor, I would say to focus on the areas where Accordance is already ahead and really finesse those areas, and not waste time on stuff like the web. Even if Accordance gets that out the door finally, it won't be at a Logos quality and seems like a huge waste of time and resources.
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