Subscription: Just can't justify pulling the trigger.
Sorry (not sorry) to start yet another subscription thread as I doubt it will add anything to the already too-long conversation but:
I just cannot see a reason to subscribe.
As a Logos 10 owner, the cost really isn't an issue now. At the discounted rate, I'd probably pay less for a 2 year subscription (for the fallback license) than I would for a full feature upgrade done the old way with a new version release. I'm willing to do it; I just can't see anything I want in the package.
- I have no interest in AI tools. I might if I actually started to use them, but they really don't suit my typical workflow. People pay me to summarize and give them insights, not take them from a machine.
- If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
- That leaves the books added to the library as long as the subscription lasts: I own most of them already. The ones I don't are mostly public domain and distinctly uninteresting.
So, what does a subscription really offer me right now?
- AI tools
- A few books I'll never read
- Instant dark mode
What am I missing that's so exciting about this? I'd love to lock in the price, but it seems such a boring way to spend $130.
(BTW Logos, the website redesign is terrible--both for sales and for showing what this subscription does. I find myself browsing it less and less.)
Comments
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I like the idea of the 5% discount and annual return which will pay for some. The other argument, though not great is, for what is to come. Get the discounted rate now and hope it is worth it.
Take the postmillennial approach
*I'm not advocating for an eschatological position nor am I postmillennial.
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Sean said:
2. If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
Yes, there's a bit of roulette here. If you don't see anything (I haven't for several years), and you don't subscribe, you 'lose' the discount rate, presumably later.
On the other hand, the potentially higher rate later discourages subscribing, so the 'house' is at risk as well. And previous 'games' haven't gone well for the 'house'.
Personally, I think the whole thing is nutty (bits and pieces of a customer experience demanding pay ... great way to shed customers, since Logos also profitably sells books).
Hopefully, the Bible college students can ante up ('house' owns the game).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:Sean said:
2. If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
Yes, there's a bit of roulette here. If you don't see anything (I haven't for several years), and you don't subscribe, you 'lose' the discount rate, presumably later.
On the other hand, the potentially higher rate later discourages subscribing, so the 'house' is at risk as well. And previous 'games' haven't gone well for the 'house'.
Personally, I think the whole thing is nutty (bits and pieces of a customer experience demanding pay ... great way to shed customers, since Logos also profitably sells books).
Hopefully, the Bible college students can ante up ('house' owns the game).
My thoughts exactly. I'm of the same view. Also owning the L10 full feature set, I'm not going to risk buyer's remorse, fork out the money for a 2-year subscription, and hope I end up with keepable features that are useful to me, not knowing in advance what those keepable features are (it's so ridiculous).
All that Faithlife had to do was both of the following...
- Continue to offer a full feature software upgrade, like they've done every 2 years, to those that want this (that includes me).
- Offer the subscription packages that include A.I. features and rented books to those who want this.
Just offer them both separately. If someone wants one of them, he/she is happy. If someone wants both of them, he/she is happy. But to not do this, I'm sorry, but that's terrible. And to risk aggravating the customer base by doing what Faithlife has chosen to do is not very good.
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Sean said:
Sorry (not sorry) to start yet another subscription thread as I doubt it will add anything to the already too-long conversation but:
I just cannot see a reason to subscribe.
As a Logos 10 owner, the cost really isn't an issue now. At the discounted rate, I'd probably pay less for a 2 year subscription (for the fallback license) than I would for a full feature upgrade done the old way with a new version release. I'm willing to do it; I just can't see anything I want in the package.
- I have no interest in AI tools. I might if I actually started to use them, but they really don't suit my typical workflow. People pay me to summarize and give them insights, not take them from a machine.
- If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
- That leaves the books added to the library as long as the subscription lasts: I own most of them already. The ones I don't are mostly public domain and distinctly uninteresting.
So, what does a subscription really offer me right now?
- AI tools
- A few books I'll never read
- Instant dark mode
What am I missing that's so exciting about this? I'd love to lock in the price, but it seems such a boring way to spend $130.
(BTW Logos, the website redesign is terrible--both for sales and for showing what this subscription does. I find myself browsing it less and less.)
Represented my position perfectly but with gentleness that I couldn't have mustered. It is not that I can't afford $130/year. I would rather give that to charity.
Logos is thinking that they can get more people to sign up today for subscription by promising higher prices in the future. This doesn't scare me at all. I guess I am not their typical consumer. I am ok to pay higher prices if I have certainty of the features I am getting. But if you are going to charge me much higher prices where there is no value to be found, I am very content with my L10 Full Feature set.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Sean said:
Sorry (not sorry) to start yet another subscription thread as I doubt it will add anything to the already too-long conversation but:
I just cannot see a reason to subscribe.
As a Logos 10 owner, the cost really isn't an issue now. At the discounted rate, I'd probably pay less for a 2 year subscription (for the fallback license) than I would for a full feature upgrade done the old way with a new version release. I'm willing to do it; I just can't see anything I want in the package.
- I have no interest in AI tools. I might if I actually started to use them, but they really don't suit my typical workflow. People pay me to summarize and give them insights, not take them from a machine.
- If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
- That leaves the books added to the library as long as the subscription lasts: I own most of them already. The ones I don't are mostly public domain and distinctly uninteresting.
So, what does a subscription really offer me right now?
- AI tools
- A few books I'll never read
- Instant dark mode
What am I missing that's so exciting about this? I'd love to lock in the price, but it seems such a boring way to spend $130.
(BTW Logos, the website redesign is terrible--both for sales and for showing what this subscription does. I find myself browsing it less and less.)
Represented my position perfectly but with gentleness that I couldn't have mustered. It is not that I can't afford $130/year. I would rather give that to charity.
Logos is thinking that they can get more people to sign up today for subscription by promising higher prices in the future. This doesn't scare me at all. I guess I am not their typical consumer. I am ok to pay higher prices if I have certainty of the features I am getting. But if you are going to charge me much higher prices where there is no value to be found, I am very content with my L10 Full Feature set.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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I am glad to see others expressing their concerns. For me personally, I did subscribe because I want to keep the fallback option going as long as it is offered. I want to retain the option to walk away at some point if I don;t see the value anymore and keep whatever new features I "earned" by staying on subscription for two years.
Unfortunately some see the expression of desire for a normal perpetual license feature upgrade as negative. It is definitely not and I wish more people woful express it.
I don't believe the majority of Logos users are on subscription at this point.
The subscription is not a bad option for those who want it. But neither is a simple purchase and both would be the best offering.
Time will tell if this new approach pans out for them or not. If it doesn't they may change their minds as nothing is set in stone. Ultimately the customers have the say, not Logos. I wish people realized that. At the end of the day, I know I can always take my current version and call it quits.
At the end of the day we either rent or buy :-)
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Steven MacDonald said:
At the end of the day we either rent or buy :-)
Or neither.
The problem with their all or nothing, is that nothing has its own attractions, unfortunately. Selling one-sy, two-sy even at a premium makes more sense. I really don't need 45 reverse interlinears. Nor a whole raft of stuff just to get a latin BWS upgrade.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Steven MacDonald said:
Unfortunately some see the expression of desire for a normal perpetual license feature upgrade as negative. It is definitely not and I wish more people woful express it.
I hope this is not true. What I sometimes see as negative is when the desire is expressed in ways implying that the person posting knows more about how to run Logos than Logos does -- but the users who actually do have the business acumen are usually quiet because they lack the data necessary to support a decision. The other thing that I personally see as negative but recognize is a standard feature in forum threads is posts that do not move the conversation but rather repeat what has already been noted 6 times in the thread. When it is done by multiple people it serves as a measure of the strength of that particular point ... but when done by a single person ... let's just say that I wished they believed I got their point the first time. But it would be sad if forumites felt they couldn't post "negative" responses. Logos needs negative feedback just as much as positive - to deny them that input would undermine their ability to adjust to changing markets.
P.S. I will admit that I no longer read the long running threads on the issue of subscription ... but I do read one when it first popups up to see if there is a new take on the issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Steven MacDonald said:
Ultimately the customers have the say, not Logos. I wish people realized that.
True only if 2 conditions are satisfied: (i) Perfectly competitive market place for Bible software (ii) Low costs to the customer to switching from one Bible software firm to another.
Regarding (i), we know competition has led to many Bible software companies closing shop or being bought by firms like Logos. This has led to what we call oligopoly (i.e., few firms controlling the market place). Oligopolies have pricing power unlike the perfectly competitive market place where customers have the pricing power.
Regarding (ii), we know there are huge costs to switching from one software firm to another firm. If you want to switch to Accordance, you lose all your investment in Logos. Your digital books don't travel with you! This results in what we call "holdup problem". Logos knows you can't switch out easily as customers, so it can expropriate its customers with the biggest investment in Logos.
All those who have heavily invested in Logos - Be prepared to be screwed at the expense of new customers.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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MJ. Smith said:
... let's just say that I wished they believed I got their point the first time. But it would be sad if forumites felt they couldn't post "negative" responses. Logos needs negative feedback just as much as positive - to deny them that input would undermine their ability to adjust to changing markets.
Back in corporate-land, negative comments are invaluable. Staff usually rants, as not true, exagerated, same people etc But absent negatives, there's little to know why something fails. The Logos features being dropped are perfect examples ... non-use from no need, or non-use from poorly designed.
I always encouraged negative comments .. most people try to be nice, or just walk away.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Back in the day, I invited feedback. Positive comments don't do much for progress. Negative might. Sometimes you can't respond to every negative, much less explain why.
If the same person complained repeatedly, that was fine--as long as they weren't just stirring up strife among others. I wanted to know what people were feeling--more than once.
I enjoyed inviting people to feel safe to bring concerns. I did ask them to propose a solution for their complaint. Fair enough. Those were good, rich, days.0 -
Sean said:
Sorry (not sorry) to start yet another subscription thread as I doubt it will add anything to the already too-long conversation but:
I just cannot see a reason to subscribe.
As a Logos 10 owner, the cost really isn't an issue now. At the discounted rate, I'd probably pay less for a 2 year subscription (for the fallback license) than I would for a full feature upgrade done the old way with a new version release. I'm willing to do it; I just can't see anything I want in the package.
- I have no interest in AI tools. I might if I actually started to use them, but they really don't suit my typical workflow. People pay me to summarize and give them insights, not take them from a machine.
- If I do subscribe, I am interested in Logos Max, but as far as I can see, right now it doesn't offer me anything that I don't already have with the L10 feature set. BUT, if I don't subscribe to Max, I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything. It's too much of a "Trust us, it's going to be good!" situation for me to buy into.
- That leaves the books added to the library as long as the subscription lasts: I own most of them already. The ones I don't are mostly public domain and distinctly uninteresting.
So, what does a subscription really offer me right now?
- AI tools
- A few books I'll never read
- Instant dark mode
What am I missing that's so exciting about this? I'd love to lock in the price, but it seems such a boring way to spend $130.
(BTW Logos, the website redesign is terrible--both for sales and for showing what this subscription does. I find myself browsing it less and less.)
I feel your pain, but asking what the features are the next two years nobody knows not even those working at Logos. We keep asking this question but nobody can answer it because it deals with the future. Yes I believe Logos should have short, medium and long terms plans for the software. But they can keep a secret. Mark said every six weeks we can expect a feature update.
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MJ. Smith said:
...What I sometimes see as negative is when the desire is expressed in ways implying that the person posting knows more about how to run Logos than Logos does -- but the users who actually do have the business acumen are usually quiet because they lack the data necessary to support a decision.
That's a fair point. All any of us can really speak to with any authority is our personal reactions as customers. On my part, I've bought new base packages with every new version of Logos since 2011. At this point I have no plans to purchase a subscription, for reasons I've discussed in other threads. It's not clear to me at this point what, if anything, they'll be offering that I might be interested in buying.
But that's just me. Other users will have their own priorities and preferences.
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I am a Verbum user. I am at the Diamond level, I own the full feature set and am currently a Verbum Now subscriber. When Verbum moves to subscription...I will become a subscriber. I thoroughly enjoy the software and want to support the innovation(s) that will be forthcoming so I can continue to use the best bible/faith study program available.
Peace,
KSC
“Let us begin, brothers, to serve the Lord God, for up until now we have done little or nothing.” St. Francis of Assisi
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I’ve had ”instant dark mode” on my iPhone and Mac for centuries now by using dark mode on my settings. It makes all my apps dark mode, except some websites on safari, that’s why I don’t get why dark mode needs to be a subscription benefit. I still subscribed for AI and other stuff, but hopefully new features can be added that we get to keep after 2 years.
DAL
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For the Desktop apps of Logos, Dark Mode used to require a restart. Now it's instant when it switches back and forth from your system settings. Is there a macOS setting that changes apps to dark mode that don't have a native dark mode setting?
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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Sean said:
I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything.
Yes they are, if you look carefully ...
In another thread the hot topic is a redesign of a toolbar. The idea is not to add new functionality, but to make it look nicer and be easier for new users.
Like yourself, I have no need for AI. And if this is at the top of their list of new "offline" features, they just told me that there isn't much on that list.
It reminds me of when Microsoft took the Start menu out of Windows 8, and did not provide for backward compatibility. People refused to upgrade just for that reason.
I might subscribe anyway, and experiment with the AI a little bit. Maybe the free books will be worth the $10/month? But I will only stay current on one computer. All my other computers are already frozen. 10 forever! [H]
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DAL said:
I’ve had ”instant dark mode” on my iPhone and Mac for centuries now by using dark mode on my settings. It makes all my apps dark mode, except some websites on safari, that’s why I don’t get why dark mode needs to be a subscription benefit. I still subscribed for AI and other stuff, but hopefully new features can be added that we get to keep after 2 years.
DAL
The US automakers a very long time ago developed a marketing strategy which was based not on improvement to the product, but on simple cosmetic changes to give people the feeling what they already had was out of style, thus the need to upgrade.
wikipedia.org">
In 1924, the American automobile market began reaching saturation point. To maintain unit sales, General Motors executive Alfred P. Sloan Jr. suggested annual model-year design changes to convince car owners to buy new replacements each year, with refreshed appearances headed by Harley Earl and the Art and Color Section. Although his concept was borrowed from the bicycle industry, its origin was often misattributed to Sloan.[9] Sloan often used the term dynamic obsolescence,[10] but critics coined the name of his strategy planned obsolescence.
Making cosmetic changes to the interface, while it is the same program and technology underneath reminds me of this strategy.
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John said:
I might subscribe anyway, and experiment with the AI a little bit. Maybe the free books will be worth the $10/month?
Okay, see you all have helped me a little bit. You reminded me of a couple features I'd forgotten: the extra free book and the 5% back (however that works). The thing is, I can't see these on the page https://www.logos.com/early-access . This new web design is terrible. It's sort of pretty but is terrible to navigate and worse to find information on.
Anyway, does anyone have a link that lists out the full benefits offered by pro & max?
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Logos already gets all of my book allowance money, plus more. And has for years. Personally, I don't see the value of a subscription - the new features advertised at this time are of no interest to me. I want my dollars to get me more books - that I own forever, not disappear if I don't keep paying.
I've never been a "stand in line at the store on the first day" kind of guy. I'll sit on the side, wait, and watch for a while.
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John said:Sean said:
I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything.
Yes they are, if you look carefully ...off
In another thread the hot topic is a redesign of a toolbar. The idea is not to add new functionality, but to make it look nicer and be easier for new users....And if this is at the top of their list of new "offline" features, they just told me that there isn't much on that list.
Great observation. You can extract people's preferences by the actions that they reveal. In this case, if Logos #1 non-AI/cloud feature is a redesigned toolbar, then it is not good news for customers who are not interested in non-AI features.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:John said:Sean said:
I'll miss out on new features that might come out in the next two years--of which Logos is not presently telling us anything.
Yes they are, if you look carefully ...off
In another thread the hot topic is a redesign of a toolbar. The idea is not to add new functionality, but to make it look nicer and be easier for new users....And if this is at the top of their list of new "offline" features, they just told me that there isn't much on that list.
Great observation. You can extract people's preferences by the actions that they reveal. In this case, if Logos #1 non-AI/cloud feature is a redesigned toolbar, then it is not good news for customers who are not interested in non-AI features.
Yes. It kinda feels like they ran out of bells and whistles to add, so they are asking us to pay in advance for features to come that haven't even been thought of yet. If I'm going to subscribe for something, I want to know what exactly I'm paying for.
When they first mentioned that one of the perks of the subscription was instant dark/light mode... that was kinda pathetic. That didn't set the bar very high.
I'm a long time Logos user but by no means an expert (been using for 20+ years and still learning more tricks), but I honestly can't really think of any NEW feature I would want (not saying there aren't any.. just saying there's already plenty to keep you busy).
However, I can think of plenty of things that should have been easy fixes... such as making images/maps in books easier to use (how about being able to double click on the image to open it in a new window and enlarge it). How about working on that?
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Fixing unfinished stuff would be offline benefits that might make subscribing beneficial (if you really own it in a couple years). AI stuff...fine for those who want to buy that. I would keep an eye on that too, because maybe someday...
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Jeff Rodrigues said:
All that Faithlife had to do was both of the following...
- Continue to offer a full feature software upgrade, like they've done every 2 years, to those that want this (that includes me).
- Offer the subscription packages that include A.I. features and rented books to those who want this.
Just offer them both separately. If someone wants one of them, he/she is happy. If someone wants both of them, he/she is happy. But to not do this, I'm sorry, but that's terrible. And to risk aggravating the customer base by doing what Faithlife has chosen to do is not very good.
This is what I don't understand. Why not offer both? They both appeal to completely different groups.
I guess I go back to the whole idea that maybe other than the AI, they didn't actually have any features ready to offer.
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John said:
I might subscribe anyway, and experiment with the AI a little bit. Maybe the free books will be worth the $10/month?
Faithlife connect subscribers would get to pick 3 free e-books each month as part of their subscription. It doesn't look like this will continue with the subscriptions. (Maybe you were referring to the rental books?)
I bet you if that if they had continued that, or something similar, people would have had a few less complaints.
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One offline feature that appears to be coming soon is the answer to Wordsearch's lesson builder. In a webinar for affiliates (they said everything in it is okay to share), Mark showed an internal version that helps write Bible studies by pulling questions from your resources. That looks great to me.
The AI search is actually pretty incredible. I was unimpressed at first, but it is developing really nicely with the footnoted smart synopsis. A search for "What did scribes wear?" is hard to generate with the traditional search. I guess you do something like: scribe AND (clothing OR wear). But the smart search finds the right synonyms and lets you dig deeper immediately in your library.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Justin Gatlin said:
One offline feature that appears to be coming soon is the answer to Wordsearch's lesson builder. In a webinar for affiliates (they said everything in it is okay to share), Mark showed an internal version that helps write Bible studies by pulling questions from your resources. That looks great to me.
The AI search is actually pretty incredible. I was unimpressed at first, but it is developing really nicely with the footnoted smart synopsis. A search for "What did scribes wear?" is hard to generate with the traditional search. I guess you do something like: scribe AND (clothing OR wear). But the smart search finds the right synonyms and lets you dig deeper immediately in your library.Thanks for sharing those two angles. Both interest me.
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Ted Weis said:
I want my dollars to get me more books - that I own forever, not disappear if I don't keep paying.
Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
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Justin Gatlin said:
One offline feature that appears to be coming soon is the answer to Wordsearch's lesson builder. In a webinar for affiliates (they said everything in it is okay to share), Mark showed an internal version that helps write Bible studies by pulling questions from your resources. That looks great to me.
The AI search is actually pretty incredible. I was unimpressed at first, but it is developing really nicely with the footnoted smart synopsis. A search for "What did scribes wear?" is hard to generate with the traditional search. I guess you do something like: scribe AND (clothing OR wear). But the smart search finds the right synonyms and lets you dig deeper immediately in your library.Interesting with the search. Thanks.
I don't know what I think about having the software write Bible studies. I saw that on one of the lists the other day, and my first thought was, have the teacher use the software to write the Bible study and then have the student use the software to automatically answer those questions. No one learns in the process. That's also why I don't really care much for the AI summarize feature. Sure, I can have the AI read the chapter for me and tell me a couple highlights. At least for me, that doesn't help me learn. It might help me answer a few quick questions for a test or a paper, but it doesn't help me actually learn. I learn by reading the material, making my own notes and highlights. Learning can't be rushed.
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It can certainly be abused. But I think that used properly, it is just like using any other reference. If I can get a list of discussion questions about a particular paragraph, I can go through them and discard them, modify them, or use them as-is. That's not any different than using any other curriculum - Logos is just collating multiple for me to use to stimulate my own prep.Donnie said:I don't know what I think about having the software write Bible studies. I saw that on one of the lists the other day, and my first thought was, have the teacher use the software to write the Bible study and then have the student use the software to automatically answer those questions. No one learns in the process. That's also why I don't really care much for the AI summarize feature. Sure, I can have the AI read the chapter for me and tell me a couple highlights. At least for me, that doesn't help me learn. It might help me answer a few quick questions for a test or a paper, but it doesn't help me actually learn. I learn by reading the material, making my own notes and highlights. Learning can't be rushed.
For the summary, of course there is no substitute for reading it yourself. But I have 20k books in my library. I am not going to read all of them. The summarization, like the search, lets me determine which ones are worth reading. In the case of my made-up example search, I can get a simple factual answer at a glance - great. But now I also know that the ISBE and Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees in Palestinian Society: A Sociological Approach both specifically discuss clothing. So instead of combing through my 104 Bible Encyclopedias, I can focus on really studying in depth the one that I want to know about. For other simple factual questions (how many people could a fatted calf feed?), I can see what books the different answers from and use my own judgment to decide which are trustworthy, and read the context and explanation of how they arrived at their results. These uses of AI are just helping AI to be what it has always been: a research assistant who combs a massive library and brings the best tools and information to me to study and use.Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Donnie said:
I don't know what I think about having the software write Bible studies. I saw that on one of the lists the other day, and my first thought was, have the teacher use the software to write the Bible study and then have the student use the software to automatically answer those questions. No one learns in the process.
When you carry out a search currently you get a couple of lines of context around matching words to help you identify which results are worth following up. Summarising search results is an enhanced version of that, I think - you can see how well it matches your query (or your intended query) by reading a brief summary before diving in.
And yes, people can abuse that and the AI search or suggested study questions etc, but they can also use it in ways that are helpful. I had a pastor who disliked Study Bibles because he thought they stifled curiosity about the text by giving answers too quickly, which is a valid concern for some people (maybe everyone at times) but they can also cause a reader to engage more deeply. Electronic bibles rather than paper too.
I think making removing obstacles from the reader can free people up to be lazier, or it can encourage people to run further.
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Rick Erickson said:
Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
Books are usable outside Logos, if exported; else not. I think Ted was contrasting to Faithlife subscriptions having abbreviated lives.
And 'forever' is probably more like 'till death do you part'. My Libronix is still more snappy than Logos, has the core of my library, and will likely be at my funeral. "Shhh ... but who's Libby, and why's a PC in the 2nd row?"
I also still use my Logos7 ... no issues.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Rick Erickson said:
Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
Logos has committed to continually provide free updates to the core engine so you can continue to access your books. Someone who last purchased Logos 4 can still download the latest engine for free and access their books and tools. Of course, if the company goes out of business and no one buys their userbase, we are in trouble and it will be time to start exporting.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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That's good to know. Are you saying there are Logos 4 users running on the latest OS's? I don't have YEARS of Logos experience so I'm not familiar.Justin Gatlin said:Rick Erickson said:Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
Logos has committed to continually provide free updates to the core engine so you can continue to access your books. Someone who last purchased Logos 4 can still download the latest engine for free and access their books and tools. Of course, if the company goes out of business and no one buys their userbase, we are in trouble and it will be time to start exporting.
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Rick Erickson said:
That's good to know. Are you saying there are Logos 4 users running on the latest OS's? I don't have YEARS of Logos experience so I'm not familiar.Justin Gatlin said:Rick Erickson said:Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
Logos has committed to continually provide free updates to the core engine so you can continue to access your books. Someone who last purchased Logos 4 can still download the latest engine for free and access their books and tools. Of course, if the company goes out of business and no one buys their userbase, we are in trouble and it will be time to start exporting.
Yes. They have the latest software build of Logos, but it has only the free features and the ones they bought back then.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Yeah, that would certainly be my 'forever' (on this earth) but would love to pass it down to a family member. And, I would NEVER have a PC at my funeral! It would be a Mac.DMB said:Rick Erickson said:Curious - sincere question: Are our books usable outside of Logos? Forever is a long time and technology forces obsolescence. If someone plans to sit on v10 'forever' I'm guessing they won't be able to do that.
And 'forever' is probably more like 'till death do you part'. My Libronix is still more snappy than Logos, has the core of my library, and will likely be at my funeral. "Shhh ... but who's Libby, and why's a PC in the 2nd row?"
I also still use my Logos7 ... no issues.
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To be honest I don't care if there is a subscription or no subscription for my Logos collection. If I hadn't bought it in seminary I certainly wouldn't pay the inflated prices that many of the book collections seem to have...from my point of view. The two other Bible Software programs that I preferred over Logos have gone out of business over the years and I suspect this is just another move leading to a similar demise for this company. Do I care? Not really although it would make use of the devotionals a bit more hard to find and use.
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Here are three solid options:
- Remember the leeks and garlics of Libby. Weep for the former days. The days of our fathers Complain. Lose your manna.
- Remember the Alamo! Fight like a banshee for what you wish Logos would do. Logos wants to hear you (sort of). You will lose, but you will go down with your gun smoking!
- Remember the Maine/Lusitania/Ides of March. (Grouped together for convenience). The rally cry for battle! Pull the trigger! Well, the Ides are more of a warning but I couldn't pass it up. Something bad COULD happen. I smell a harbinger,
- Free bonus: Remember the Sabbath! It's coming! Better get ready! A subscription is only a tank of gas for my son's Ford Excursion.
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I did end up pulling the trigger for Max. What pushed me over:
- The price as an L10 FFS owner: 2 years subscription with fallback license costs about the same (or even somewhat less) than what I'd normally pay during the 2-year upgrade cycle. I figure it was worth a try.
- The promised additional free book. I'd forgotten about that one until I read about it again in one of these many threads. Sure, I won't like all of them, but I'll like enough of them to feel like I'm getting something of (permanent) value as part of the subscription.
I haven't gotten to use it that much yet, but these are two additional points I'm happy about so far:
- Max includes the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges. I didn't notice that when I scanned the list of books that comes with Max, but I find that series very useful both for study and for historical research. I'm glad to have access to it without necessarily having to buy it.
- The AI stuff--yeah I know. I'm still very ambivalent about it, and I don't know that I'd ever use it for anything important. But I'm recycling an old sermon this Sunday, couldn't remember how I'd preached it before. With just a brief prompt, the Sermon Illustrator coughed out an illustration that'll work so, yeah.
I'm still on the fence about the idea of subscription in general--it's yet another thing to keep track of, I'd rather just purchase outright, time will only tell whether Logos delivers on the hype. But at the moment, it seems adequately workable, and I'm cautiously optimistic that down the road it may surprise me in positive ways.
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