So the truth about Logos on Linux is...
This is quite a technical discussion but is probably of huge interest to those who want to see Logos on linux.
The Problem
Logos do not make a linux version - but there is hope!
Why
Linux is a great OS which many of us prefer. Some like myself only own a mac or windows machine for the purpose of running Logos. I got given a mac but as it ages I would prefer to go back to linux one day.
Solution 1 - Logos changes plan and makes it themselves.
I've read various posts on this forum asking Faithlife to make a Logos version but I believe it has been ruled out by Bob on the basis of cost and market size. This makes solution 1 very unlikely but much of the reason for the expense is the lack of .NET and WPF on linux. These two technologies may be brought to linux by microsoft later this year. At that point it will make sense to give Faithlife another nudge to see if they'll budge. This would be the best possible outcome but it's a long-shot.
Solution 2 - Virtualization - WORKS
If you need Logos on linux now and you have a decent machine then it is already possible to run a virtual windows machine inside linux. These are very tidy, relatively fast and work well but you need a windows license, lots of ram like 16gb and ideally a fast machine with a core i7 processor for adequate results. Many will not be fully happy with this as a solution because it isn't really running Logos on linux and requires maintaining a windows installation and license.
Solution 3 - Wine (This is where the hope is IMHO)
Wine is a compatibility layer designed for Linux and other systems to enable native running of windows apps. Many forum posts have dismissed the possibility of wine as a solution because it is believed that it is not possible to run .NET apps except via Mono (an alternative for .NET). This turns out to be wrong. There was certainly a time when Mono was the preferred way but it is already possible to install every version of .NET on linux with working results. Including the dependencies for Logos 6. This is what I've learned so far...
There are games and apps like Paint.NET which do work on linux.
HOW FAR I HAVE GOTTEN…
By following a tutorial at http://forum.quantum-rush.net/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=726 I have learned some key things. For .NET to work on linux we need to go 32bit right through the software stack. This seems to be possible with 32bit Ubuntu, 32bit Wine and also Logos will install on 32bit Windows. Using this method I have managed to fully install Logos 6 and all obvious dependencies to Ubuntu already. That was pretty complicated and requires some changes to the tutorial which I can share if others want to have a go. The problem is it doesn’t yet work. When people get windows games to work on linux there are typically specific dll files which also need to be carried over from windows into linux. I think the understanding is that if you own a windows license this is probably ok but I’m not convinced of the legality of that (someone else may know). This is where it gets really technical and if I’m honest beyond my ability as a clergyman (with a background in Java programming and linux not windows). Despite the fact that it doesn't yet work it has gotten very far. Installed is a big deal. It does actually run for a moment before crashing but it doesn't ask for dependencies any more. This really could mean that it will work with very little extra tweaking.
So my hope is that by sharing the above there may be someone else may have the expertise to take it further. I highly suspect that would be someone who has experience playing windows games on linux (seemingly the main use of Wine). Is that you, or do you know that person?Solution 4 - Logos for Android in Chrome on Linux
This seems likely to happen and will be much appreciated but it is not a power user solution. We do want real Logos desktop. No timeline is available but see here:https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/6088175?hl=en
A COMMUNITY EFFORT
The good news is that programs as equally complex as logos with similar dependancies already run on linux via wine. The bad news is that although we are close we are not quite there… Can you take it further? A community effort would do two things it would be a great expression of the linux way and also it would be a great measure of interest which may prove the value of a logos for linux to faithlife. Has anyone else had a go?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
Comments
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John,
I wouldn't mind seeing what you're doing there. I do not currently have a Linux machine I can test on. But this is the kind of stuff that turns my crank, and I might be able to get some parts to build a slower machine for it.
Here's the question: Are you able to get any logging out of the initial run of L6? I would love to see any "complaints" in the log file that might point to an issue.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
It's all done on virtualbox at the moment which enables rapid testing because you can snapshot the machine at various stages and jump back if you need to. Mostly you can follow the guide here:
http://forum.quantum-rush.net/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=726
When you get to installing .NET4 it's time to change to the most recent version of Wine. I suggest windows 8.1 enterprise 90 day demo as a test machine for a 32bit windows. If you then install into windows the normal logos windows download you can get a 32bit version of logos. Don't sign in just quit and use that along with the installers it downloaded. This is because the logos installer is really just an app which downloads the appropriate installer for your machine.
I haven't tried logging. I'll give it a go though...
I think we really need to get someone on board who knows about Wine and how to choose which custom dll files to include...
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Alas this is not me.John Goodman said:I think we really need to get someone on board who knows about Wine and how to choose which custom dll files to include...
I can track through obscure config files just fine though. I'll try to play with it. For reasons beyond me I had not considered virtualization - that rather simplifies things for me.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Great initiative. I've used Linux as my main OS for the last 16 years and I couldn't be happier. That being said, I can't say I've had good experiences with Wine with such complex programs. It's not I'd like to discourage you, but I believe that even if we managed to make it install/start it would be too much of an effort to make it work with 100% of its functionality. Currently I run it under VMware Player in a 8GB-RAM/Core i5/SSD laptop. The performance is quite decent. As you said, the downsides are: 1) The fact that you need a Windows license; 2) Performance: it's good, but it obviously would be better without virtualization.
If anyone manages to make progress on this I'll be more than happy to be a tester.
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John Goodman said:
Solution 1 - Logos changes plan and makes it themselves.
I've read various posts on this forum asking Faithlife to make a Logos version but I believe it has been ruled out by Bob on the basis of cost and market size. This makes solution 1 very unlikely but much of the reason for the expense is the lack of .NET and WPF on linux. These two technologies may be brought to linux by microsoft later this year.Curious about WPF open source information? Microsoft's WPF roadmap blog in Nov 2014 => http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/12/the-roadmap-for-wpf.aspx does not mention open source.
Mono is an open source alternative for .NET lacking WPF => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/ that is included with Faithlife applications on OS X.
Introducing .NET Core in Dec 2014 => http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/12/04/introducing-net-core.aspx includes Mono comparison.
Apple's Cocoa graphical user interface (GUI) for OS X also lacks an open source alternative => http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/os-x-apps-run-on-linux-with-wine-like-emulator-for-mac-software/ with updated Darling link => Darling HQ | OS X translation layer for Linux
Apple includes many open source projects => https://www.apple.com/opensource/ Caveat: OS X is only licensed to run on Apple hardware.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Mono is no hope because it won't be developing WPF. That said WPF is already working on linux via wine as it is part of .NET. The problem with wine is that development tends to focus around MS Office, Adobe CS and Games period. There is very little action for other stuff.
There is every chance we can get a version of Logos mostly working on linux but it is also entirely possible that it is impossible. It's a complex software stack - Logos depends on WPF and the rest of .NET which depend on DirectX which depends on WINE etc. Hence the experiment...
I haven't had much time for it this week but I will continue working on it. The most obvious step is to try and test some known to work apps in the install to check that everything is functioning as it should. Then I could try a few different versions of Logos and see if I get any life out of it. Will keep you all posted.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Mono is no hope because it won't be developing WPF.
Microsoft and Xamarin are global partners => http://blog.xamarin.com/microsoft-and-xamarin-expand-global-partnership/
Xamarin sponsors Mono Project => http://www.mono-project.com/ that does not have WPF => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/
John Goodman said:That said WPF is already working on linux via wine as it is part of .NET.
Please provide information source for WPF already working on Linux.
Microsoft Developer Network (MSDN) Blog announced .NET 2015 preview => http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/12/announcing-net-2015-preview-a-new-era-for-net.aspx that has a link to WPF roadmap as of 12 Nov 2014 => http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/12/the-roadmap-for-wpf.aspx (for Windows, nothing for Linux)
Blog => http://www.hanselman.com/blog/AnnouncingNET2015NETAsOpenSourceNETOnMacAndLinuxAndVisualStudioCommunity.aspx includes picture:
Noticed WPF is in box with Windows .NET Framework. In contrast, .NET Core shows Windows, Mac, and Linux.
John Goodman said:... I could try a few different versions of Logos and see if I get any life out of it. Will keep you all posted.
Codeweavers (commercially supported WINE) has application compatiblity => https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/name/?letter=l;curPos=277 that shows Logos 4 is known not to work, which could be updated with Logos 5 and Logos 6 (anticipating not to work due to WPF, which is consistent with earlier results posted in this thread). Older Logos Bible Software X used Internet Explorer 8 for graphical rendering, which works in WINE on Linux.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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John,
Are you continuing to investigate Logos on Linux? Have new possibilities arisen with the direction of .NET and open source?
Thanks,
VRH
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I'd like to but I don't have much spare time for it... any ideas?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Afraid not. I wish that MS's open source version of .NET would make this easier but apparently it does not.
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So great news! It seems there is a new project "Avalonia" which "decided to do what many thought impossible. We forked WPF and replaced the low levels with Avalonia and named it Avalonia XPF. It's API-compatible and binary-compatible, meaning all your favourite 3rd party controls continue to work! Right now, we support running on Windows, macOS and Linux. We expect to add iOS, Android and Browser (WASM) support later this year. If you want to try it, you can sign up for a trial on our website. "
It has quite a price tag for enterprises but could be worth it, if it would port Logos to Linux.
Please Logos Devs! Have a look at it!
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The situation has changed rather and this thread is out of date... more up to date info is here https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/1303544.aspx#1303544
It works very well. Even if they did a native port Avalonia wouldn't be relevant because dotnet is now open source and Logos is based off a much newer version etc. Faithlife seems to have assessed that there isn't enough of a business case for an official port but we have the windows version running very well on Linux.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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I run LOGOS on my Linux machine by running the browser version. Works just fine. It did take some getting used to.
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