Does Logos really want to sell products or just create divisions?

Nope … need a real subscription if you have L10. And no free test subscription. I've been enjoying shopping Accordance (not to mention the crazy searching on Logos.com).

Thats the "stick" part of the "carrot and stick" strategy 😎

I don't know why 'we' go over this, month after month. No free trial, if you have L10 FF. I forget if you just have L10. And no, I don't do fake-subscribes like my friends do with Amazon Prime. It's not honest. If FL wanted to offer the packages to non-subscribers, they would. As it stands, I'm 'outside the camp' … and happy.

And since we're repeating, no subscription for a pig-in-a-poke, especially after no pigs in the last 4-6 years (no useful features for myself; no argument for others). And I especially do NOT want FL screwing up my layout with crazy 12-14 'Mores' per window that with drop downs that have to be dropped-up. And yes, there's the discount for the inflated prices. No thank you.

Ok … back to trying to decide on the Encyclopedia of Hebrew (Accordance of course; Logos's is perpetually 'in development', along with screwing up on Tov).

Yes … he just left out 'where applicable'. Fine print.

Like @DMB has mentioned - some may view the having to "fake" subscribe via Free Trial to be able to purchase as not being honest… Others may have used the "Free Trial" during the Early Access without knowing that they would be excluded from the still to come Library Packages.

While it is true that Library Packages "required" a "Feature Purchase/ownership" or subscription of some type - was it marketed as having to buy the Features to be eligible to buy Libraries - NO - the opposite….

In the past, the Library Packages offered varying levels of included Features - a user did not have to buy a Feature Set first, they were included to some level in the Library Purchase or as stand alone Feature Sets.

My question of the "New Era" is wanting to keep the "requirement" of owning or subscribing to be able to buy a Library of resources when you truly are not able to "buy" the Features any longer. (Yes the LFL may or may not be available in the future, but it only allows limited ownership of "some" features - so the game was changed by Logos… (I do get the goal though…. Punish non-subscribers by limiting access to resource purchases in hopes of forcing them into a subscription)

While I hold out hope that this "New Era" is not going to be as bad as it appears for long term users that have no interest in a subscription plan - my hope is dwindling!

This issue, the unanswered question(s) I have asked multiple times as to why Feature Parity now requires a subscription which I do NOT recall any Feature Parity requiring subscription or additional purchase in the past and the Dynamic Toolbar forced upon users to the detriment of some users layouts and efficient use of the software - it's just looking dreary for the users who don't comply….

@Frank Sauer I don't feel dreary. Air is fresh 'outside the camp', and the credit card empty … free, free, free (ok, a few almost free books).

But unfortunately Accordance has some (expensive) volumes I didn't know they had. So, maybe this is just great luck, budget-wise.

But I REALLY feel for new customers and those already committed but still building. It's not going to be pretty. I REALLY enjoyed my time with Logos. It was like Christmas, all year. But, company ownership won't be too flexible, as Bob was.

Yes. I was unaware of it previously, I guess because I always bought all the features with each new release except for briefly while subscribed to Logos Now. I'm sure they have their reasons, but I never understand people saying "No" to money in situations like this. If I wanted to buy a new package of books but not subscribe because I already have plenty of features (most of which I rarely if ever use), why should that be a problem? I would definitely have been annoyed if I'd ever encountered that.

My guess is 'subscription' HAS to WORK. And not to keep the company afloat. They can't fail yet again. This goes back many moons. And Mark's comment ignores the obvious … he doesn't SELL features anymore (outside his 'legacy' thing to molify hold-outs … not their original plan by the way).

But two more days to decide on Accordance targets … gee … I don't have an Accordance subscription …. what will I do?!

I have to say, I can't disagree with this - there are times it seems that the "HAS to WORK" takes priority over customers…. But this is the "New Era" so - maybe one of the defining points of the New Era is leaving the "old guard" of faithful customers who don't "comply" out of the loop….

I guess that I should just give up on simple questions being given a professional answer or maybe the ignored questions and ignored emails are payback for pushing back and fighting for what eventually became the LFL….

Maybe things will improve for those of us who don't wear those special Logos glasses - if not, like you pointed to in the other post, it has been a relief to the wallet…. Even the cell phone companies become responsive to long time customers when they think they may be losing them because the new customers get the attention - doesn't seem that way here….

Is this not possible? Purchase a 2025 Verbum library from verbum.com and then go to Logo.com and purchase a 2025 Logos Librarary?

Yep. And from 'the outside' (and now, 'outside the camp'), my impression is 'staffing'. When asked about hebrew expertise, it was the ECC guy (forgot his name; my fault). Just guessing (yet again), they're having to farm out expertise. Future 'features' are going to have to be lower-end expertise-based. No offense to MJ, but I wonder if liturgical-support is even still do-able.

I was actually being a tad bit sarcastic there…. But I was not aware of that information - I may need to check into it…

Well, from the what's trending e-mail they send out each Saturday, you can kind of get a glimpse…

Only 6000 people claimed the subscriber free book, where 33k and 40k claimed the other two free books.

Mark is a great guy, but the "this" he's referring to isn't the core issue that folks are concerned about. This is the first time that users have been required to commit to an ongoing subscription in order to purchase either features or a base package library. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there were a purchase option available for base packages that included some reasonable mixture of features and books.

True enough … but 6000 highly devoted (happily paying) fans at $10 a clip/month (badly generalizing) aren't going to pay much in the way of bills. Six staff maybe, after other expenses.

It seems to me that there has been a distinct change in emphasis for Logos over the last decade and a half. When I first bought Logos, it was all about the resources, and the features were there to help you use them more effectively (search, tagging, notes, etc.) Logos was library software, with the focus very definitely being on the library. That's why the pitch was that we bought the books, and the software was free. Back in the day, buying features wasn't an issue. Over time, the features have become more ambitious and more central to the way Logos is positioned by FaithLife.

That's one reason I'm questioning whether Logos is still a good fit for me, separate and apart from the subscription issue. They're increasingly adding features that I don't care about, and seem to be less focused on the research library aspect of the program.

I agree, the features are becoming either more customer-directed (which could be viewed as good, especially pastors). Or just stuff (like the new resource menu).

And just me, I'm mystified why they demand $10 to check out their new baby for L10 FF owners who already gave them a bunch. Admittedly I don't want to risk it, but it is strange. Most of my info about the new baby, is customer complaints/bug-reports.