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    • Comparing Sermon Builder & Bible Study Builder

    Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2024 in English Forum

    If asked, I would explain the different uses of the Sermon Builder and Bible Study Builder this way:

    If you desire a slide presentation, and if your format is more direct teaching than group discussion, and if you desire to plan and track your teaching schedule in Logos, then you would likely most benefit from using Sermon Builder (which automatically interacts with Sermon Manager).

    If you do not desire a slide presentation, and if your format is more group discussion than direct teaching, and if you do not desire to plan and track your teaching schedule in Logos, then you would likely most benefit from using Bible Study Builder.

    Does this seem accurate to those of you who have had the opportunity to compare the two?

    (Edited to remove excessive white space.)

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    • Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      Further thoughts:

      The tool that Bible Study Builder has, that I most wish Sermon Builder also had, is the ability to pull questions (related to the text you are teaching) directly from the books in your library.

      When I teach, I'm usually aiming for a slide presentation that encourages a mixture of direct teaching and group discussion. I would love to be able to merely click on related questions (questions taken from books in my library, not only ones generated by AI) and have them move into my Sermon Builder text (as is possible in Bible Study Builder), where I can then create slides presenting those questions.

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      Comparing Sermon Builder & Bible Study Builder

      Maria

      I would agree with your analysis. I always thought Sermon Builder need more work, like adding L4 links and better formatting and such. By Logos adding more "features like Passage Lists, Sermon Builder, Workflows, Notes, Clippings and such, and now Bible Study Builder" it seems eventually, all that is going to just get confusing as to which to use and then getting all confused about which I used last time. I would like a more concentrated effort on making some functions or features "better" rather than adding "features" to infinite. Just my thoughts…. which if you add about $3.00, you can buy a cup of coffee. 😎

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭

      Also, what would be your analysis of "Workflows" vs "Bible Study Builder"??? Thanks.

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • MVP Posts: 54,998
      xnman

      I see very little similarity although I will admit that after waiting decades for the Bible Studied Builder, I find myself boycotting it for its lack of crediting the original source. The Bible study workflows are intended to be used by Logos owners within the Logos software in order to learn/practice/use specific methodologies which are often taken from books within Logos. The Bible Study Builder is intended for the Bible study teacher who uses Logos, to develop Bible lessons and handouts that fit their particular participants. It is much closer to the sermon/homily builder than to workflows.

      Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      Thanks. I guess I'm just weird as I use Workflows for classes and such. I like it because I can "link" to files and bounce to the file for quotes and such. Works well for that.

      I see Bible Study Builder as needing more work in that area….

      And to tell the truth…. all these "features" are staring to overlap I think. 😎

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • Member Posts: 10,850 ✭✭✭

      Bible Study Builder is the extra feature that is not really needed. Sermon builder can create questions too!
      I would much rather see them polishing and perfecting the sermon builder than introducing this feature that it seems like they just came up with it just to look active providing features in the new subscription model.

      It’s been years we’ve been asking for a better sermon builder and all they do is give us the run around!

      DAL

    • MVP Posts: 54,998

      @xnman

      all these "features" are staring to overlap I think. 

      Yes, they have for years and will do so even more as they integrate and simplify the UI. But that is because different denominations and different methods look at the same data through different lens and reaching it from different contexts.

      Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1348068#Comment_1348068

      Pardon me, but I kindly disagree. I do understand different denominations looking at things differently, but I do think they all build classes and sermons somewhat alike. And that would lead me to say that I think one "feature" could satisfy all if it was put together right. I know it's a long shot and definitely thinking outside the box, but I also believe that the way Logos is going about it, we'll have 48,000 "features" if they are going to satisfy all denominations. And in my mind, that just doesn't seem logical or practical. But I also know I don't count…. 🙃

      (48,000 =number of religious denominations from my last study which was 2 years ago now).

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • MVP Posts: 54,998

      @xnman

      Pardon me, but I kindly disagree. 

      Given that you indicated some of my Bible tips were outside the forum guidelines, I would have thought you'd agree. BTW, I've never figured out for sure what you were talking about … and I've tried, honest? Nice try at reductio ad absurdum. Logos centers on a single "criticism" with forays into a few more. There are somewhere around a dozen needed for Logos to support a broadly Christian market.

      Method Name

      Distinctive Strength

      Textual Criticism

      Helps establish the original text of ancient documents and ensures the authenticity and accuracy of biblical texts.

      Source Criticism

      Helps identify independent source documents behind biblical texts and understand their origins and influences.

      Form Criticism

      Uncovers original forms and historical contexts of biblical texts, revealing insights into oral traditions that preceded the written Gospels.

      Redaction Criticism

      Emphasizes the creative role of the author and reveals theological intentions through the arrangement and editing of sources.

      Historical Criticism

      Enables critical examination of biblical texts in their historical contexts, helping to understand their origins and meanings.

      Literary Criticism

      Analyzes literary genres and structures to uncover evidence about authorship and context

      Canonical Criticism

      Emphasizes the final form of the biblical canon as the authoritative context for interpretation, allowing for a deeper understanding of the theological significance of the text within the community that uses it.

      Rhetorical Criticism

      Uncovers the author's intent and persuasive strategies in biblical texts

      Structuralist Criticism

      Reveals deeper meanings through analysis of relationships and structures in the text.

      Narrative Criticism

      Analyzes biblical texts as part of a larger narrative to understand their coherent purpose and elicit audience responses.

      Social-Scientific Criticism

      Explores the original social and cultural setting of biblical texts, emphasizing the importance of understanding social conventions and assumptions of the author's world.

      Feminist Criticism

      Challenges patriarchal interpretations and highlights women's experiences in biblical texts

      Postcolonial Criticism

      Challenges traditional views of biblical authority and power by analyzing the historical and cultural impacts of colonialism.

      Reader-Response Criticism

      Places the reader's experience at the heart of meaning-making, allowing for multiple interpretations based on individual backgrounds and beliefs.

      Archaeological Criticism

      Authenticates biblical narratives and provides evidence supporting the historical accuracy of the Bible.

      Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    • Member Posts: 794 ✭✭✭

      Hi MJ! You seem to be referring to some source when you list out the various criticisms. Could you please share? It is also quite possible you just have this in your head, in which case I will cut-paste your response for my reference.

      I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.

    • MVP Posts: 54,998
      https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1348080#Comment_1348080

      I usually use a chart by Fr. Just, S.J. but for xnman I didn't want to use a Catholic source so I simply asked Perplexity for the top 15 biblical criticism methods and what their strength/purpose is and to present it in table format. I thought Perplexity did quite well, with each purpose getting its own footnote.

      Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    • Member, MVP Posts: 2,902

      Off-topic… Perplexity Rocks. I use it every day, more than ChatGPT, Gemini or Claude.

    • MVP Posts: 54,998

      @xnman

      but I do think they all build classes and sermons somewhat alike.

      Sort of … but one thing I've learned from being on the forums is that what I mean by the Word of God is not the same as what some other forumites mean. To me, "Word of God" first and foremost means the person of Jesus Christ. Secondly, it means the proclaimed word spoken by God for the first and only time (eternal now) in Sacramental worship. Thirdly, it refers to dried ink on paper - the least efficacious form but still infinitely due respect and study. I live in a world alive with the Word of God - in art, music, architecture, even the least of my fellow humans. Assuming that my fellow forumites mean what they write, I think it highly unlikely that we build classes and sermons in the same way although the externals may look similar.

      Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    • MVP Posts: 36,180

      @Maria

      If you do not desire a slide presentation, and if your format is more group discussion than direct teaching …

      BSB seems more like learning how to use Leggo, especially when citations end up two blocks away from the text, and I still cannot control its formatting different from that of the text in a Normal block. The sourced Q's and generated AI Q's do not suit my style when they focus on personal reactions to the bible text instead of its exposition. And it does not cater for hyperlinks, which is a major obstacle to adopting BSB over Clippings for my Bible Study.

      Dave
      ===

      Windows 11 & Android 13

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      From Mj….

       Nice try at reductio ad absurdum. Logos centers on a single "criticism" with forays into a few more. There are somewhere around a dozen needed for Logos to support a broadly Christian market.

      ===============

      Deep sigh… A song comes to mind… "Oh don't let me be misunderstood"… lol.

      Not trying to be absurd or "reductio"… No need to go there. Just thinking what would make my "file building" in Logos better. To which, having all the "features" of building many different types of files just causes more development work and maintenance on the part of Logos and leads to only confusing and frustrating users like me.

      Let's take Workflows as an example…. (here's my off the top of my head thinking about changes to workflows)

      1. they pretty work well already.

      2. Add in "slides" to the "Preaching Theme".

      3. Add in when layout is saved, you can start again at the place in which the layout was saved.

      4. Add in ability to format, change color, etc to "Major Stepp" text.

      5. Ability to "expand or condense" all minor steps in a major step.

      And you'll have a "feature" that would be great and maybe for most people.

      I'm not trying to argue the issue, just trying to put forth an idea and suggestion that I think has merit. And believe me, I find that hard to do sometimes. 😁

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      To go a step further with my thought on Workflows…

      Each "Theme" or "Workflow Kind" in Workflows could have it's own formatting, maybe question suggestions, in one, etc. Maybe one of those "Workflow Kind" can have things in it like Bible Study Builder, one like Sermon Builder etc. and etc.

      This way we would have one "feature" that would do a lot of different things…. And one place to find our files… whoo hoo!! And maybe put Workflow files into "Documents".. Oh Yeah!!!

      You gotta admit… it's an interesting idea!!! Welll… at least I do! LOL🙂

      Edit: But then there is the "old finite box"…. lol

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

    • Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭

      @xnman said: I always thought Sermon Builder need more work, like adding L4 links and better formatting and such.

      Do you teach directly from your workflows? I wonder if Logos didn't foresee us presenting/teaching from INSIDE the software. I'm speculating, but maybe that's why links weren't included. I think it's awesome that you do that. So many cool tools directly at hand - if a question comes up, boom, you can pull up a tool to research.

      Presently, I insert desired links into my power point presentation, after I've exported it from Logos. Power Point and Google Slides can do so much more presention-wise than Logos can (primarily links and cool effects), so I usually choose to export my slides and then use Preaching Mode for myself while using Power Point to present to my class.

      But it seems that many of us (myself included) often teach (or desire to teach) directly from inside Logos. I've always dreamed of being able to present the slides directly from Logos (onto a large screen) while simultaneously using Preaching Mode on my phone or laptop. (I wonder if Logos would expect that Proclaim is filling this need; but, Proclaim is too large a beast for those of us who just teach a Sunday School class or Bible study group.)

    • Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭

      @MJ. Smith

      I see very little similarity although I will admit that after waiting decades for the Bible Studied Builder, I find myself boycotting it for its lack of crediting the original source.

      This troubles me as well - I wish they would automatically cite the source.

    • Member Posts: 10,850 ✭✭✭

      I like to present from my screen. Sermon outline on the left and preferred Bible on the right. Click on a verse in the outline and it opens for people to see on the right side. I can even show quotes from a resource by opening it so people can see for themselves! If Logos could add the ability to add pictures that zoom in and out from any resource it would be way better!

    • Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      🔅 Anybody and everybody, please vote: Here's the link to a request for the Sermon Builder to add the ability to generate questions from books in one's library (and to include proper citation):

      https://community.logos.com/discussion/226722/sermon-builders-generate-questions-function

      (Edited as I forgot to click to make the link go live.)

    • Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭

      @MJ. Smith

      I tried to find a feature request asking Logos to automatically create cirtations for questions gathered by the Bible Study Builder, but I couldn't find one.

      Does one exist? If not, I'll gladly create one…

    • Member Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭
      edited December 2024

      I find the "questions and suggestions" that Logos comes up with to be not in keeping with the way I teach Scripture. As a result, I rarely, if ever, use them. I've looked at them and just not comfortable using them. So, I "roll my own". 🙃

      Edit: And yes, I teach directly with Logos, either on my phone or via laptop. I do use PowerPoint when I want to dissect something or show a map (which I get from other sources other than Logos as Logos maps are immature).

      xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

      Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

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