Cloud Computing: Why you can't sync selectively
Comments
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Mike S. said:
I agree with the cloud strategy and think the FUD posting pointing to people and companies who make tons of money spreading fear is disingenuous or ignorant (disclosure: I'm a professional in this field and see the REAL issues every day and sell really-super-expensive software and services to keep it from happening... and I talk to the industry analysts and "experts" regularly... including people writing FUD).
And I assume:
1. You would gladly put all your information online, unencrypted, because all the worries about "cloud" are just "FUD." After all, no-one wants to look at your life, and mine it for marketing and other information about you--not even Amazon and Google.
2. You're certain that network bandwidth is going to be free forever. Economics and physics are arguing against you here.
3. You consider all your data to be public unless you decide to keep it private. In other words, you're okay with putting locks on one room in your house, and allowing people to wander all over the rest of it. If you want to keep it private, you'll move it into that one room.
Again, I've offered three solutions to the problem of privacy. None of them come from someone who is "ignorant," or "spreading FUD." I'll even add the fourth--if I could do local backups, and rely on my
firewall to block synching of all notes and other data I've entered, I'd
be happy with that, too. Calling me, or anyone else, who defaults to "all my data is private until I decide not to make it private," names, isn't solving any sort of a problem here. Calling someone names who believes they should be able to use software doesn't help anything here, either.[quote]I do think fear has kept people from expressing a proper and valid concern, desire for some key features:
- Turn off internet access to keep even neophyte users from accessing it by clicking sync or anything that would appear on the "Home Page"
No, I don't want to turn off Internet access. I want to be able to keep the program updates synch'd, and have local control of the data I enter into the software. As another option, I'd like my data to be encrypted with a key of my choosing. If none of those work, then build the software so I can use the cross links between personal data and resources in a way that makes sense, without having to jump through hoops to do it.
[quote]
- Point in time backups of personalized content -- I would be fine with this kind of feature being enabled within the Logos sync infrastructure (OK, call it "the cloud" if you like)
- Export/import of personalized content
I like to be able to share
and allow others to extend/change/enjoy my work in their logos... make
it their own... remix it into something better... so I admit that
export/import is only one possible way of doing this, not really the
"feature" I care about as much as the function
Again, these would be a really nice feature if people expect me to keep my data inside Logos. The other option for both of these is to give me ways to fully integrate with some other software package in crosslinks, etc.
[quote]On another note, as someone who works in the tech industry I'm consistently amazed at Bob's openness, patience, self-control, gentleness, and faith in his customers. It continually humbles me and is a great reminder and example for me when I'm at the end of my patience with my own customers and partners:
Thank you Bob
I would agree with this statement completely--I appreciate the work Bob does, and his patience.
But that doesn't mean Bob doesn't make mistakes, or "drink the koolaid" from time to time, any less than it does any of us here. I learned a long time ago that fads in the IT industry are just like fads in fashion. I no longer buy my pants according to fashion, and I no longer jump on IT industry bandwagons. Cloud, "green," even the "web" to some degree--these are all tools of greater or lesser utility. I stopped believing years ago that the future was going to be "ruled" by one particular technology. Even the Antichrist will probably use more than one technology to "control all buying and selling."
Honestly, if you look at Internet core traffic, you'll find the 'web is still only a small part of it (and its inflated because HTML is the default transport now, to get through firewalls--Arbor has some really nice reports on this). And if you look at networks in general, the "private" side of any service provider's network is always at least four or five times larger than the "public" side, not counting the huge networks that are still built privately. To give you a specific example, virtually every service provide I work with has well over 1 million routes in their routing tables. Of those, about 280,000 are "public" routes. The rest are "private." The "Internet" hasn't precisely "taken over" the entire field of networking, in other words, and many more routers are sold into private use than use on the 'net, no matter how great the 'net might be. I would bet "cloud computing" will follow a similar pattern, and that what you see in "public" cloud will be the tip of the iceburg in what data is out there.
This is all because of a simple problem: companies don't default to "unless I want to keep it secret, I'll let anyone see it." Every presentation template I've ever seen at any company says at the bottom "confidential." Lots of people put those disclaimers at the bottom of their emails now that say everything in those emails is confidential. Why should I treat my data any differently?
You can call me "ignorant" all day long, and say I'm spreading "FUD," and see some sort of insidious "plot" because of the company I work for. Whatever. There are people in cisco who've been bitten by the "cloud" worse than many here, including you. There are others who haven't. It's a big company, with lots of people, and lots of opinions.My job at cisco didn't come with a muzzle, nor do they plug me in every night to upload the correct set of opinions for the next day.
I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but, really... The concepts don't seem so hard to me here. Don't tell me what "private" data is and isn't. I'll make a deal with you--you can tell me what's "private" when I can come by your house at any time I like and place the pictures I take on the open Internet--as long as I promise not to take pictures of your bank statement. If you get to define "private data" for me, then fair's fair--I get to define private data for you.
At any rate, I'm done with this thread, and the problem of synch'ing data in Logos. I think I've offered several realistic solutions, and made a strong case.
Russ
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Russ White said:
1. You would gladly put all your information online, unencrypted, because all the worries about "cloud" are just "FUD." After all, no-onewants to look at your life, and mine it for marketing and other information about you--not even Amazon and Google.
I should be straight up Russ; I know who you are and your tech credentials speak for themselves. I actually own a few of your books. Great stuff. So I know you're not ignorant and frankly you've not pulled the "I know more then you do" card. You've remained humble and I've seen that.
What I am frustrated with is the pointing to "the cloud" (networked computers holding data and running applications for end users) as something "new" and there's some kind of huge new threat. It's not new and you know it. Throwing up a few links to articles meant to start an IT security conversation in a forum like this because you don't like the direction the software is taking is, in my opinion, disingenuous. You know this isn't the right context to have a productive discussion, but it is a great place to scare people. I would think you might have more success trying to reach out to Bob and do give him a view into your credentials. They are not insubstantial.
I know network bandwidth isn't free, nor is storage, let alone the infrastructure required to host the cloud. Fact is, that is my biggest concern for the current L4 design -- it won't scale without driving up costs, and hence, our price. Shucks, I think the choice of .NET isn't the best long term approach either. It ties you into being a PC platform and I do believe mobile devices and platforms are the way of the future . . . Bob's frustrations with the lack of apparent return on the iPhone app are evidence of that in my opinion.
Admittedly, as you might guess, I would prefer that the data be encrypted in transit and at rest and for that reason, I do not put anything up that is valuable to my privacy or person.
All this discussion around "cloud" for me detracts from a focused, valuable discussion around L4 features around personalized content that get hidden in "the cloud".
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Mike S. said:
I should be straight up Russ; I know who you are and your tech credentials speak for themselves. I actually own a few of your books. Great stuff. So I know you're not ignorant and frankly you've not pulled the "I know more then you do" card. You've remained humble and I've seen that.
Thank you.
[quote]What I am frustrated with is the pointing to "the cloud" (networked computers holding data and running applications for end users) as something "new" and there's some kind of huge new threat.
When you properly understand the cloud, IMHO, you will see that it is something new. It is the same as object oriented programming, it's not just another way of storing files.
Part of the problem is, I think, there are two separate points to be made:
1. I don't really agree with the business decision. But, really, that's beyond my pay grade, and hence, I've let that go. Instead, I'm simply taking the approach of protecting my investment where I can--moving my data out of Logos. At the same time, I'm still encouraging people to use Logos, just with realistic caveats about privacy.
2. I don't agree with the "no option to store your data where you want it." There are multiple solutions to this problem (as above). This is the point I've been focused on for a while in these threads. The main way to get people's attention is to pick one of the various problems--privacy--and focus on what that means to the average user. Hence, the articles showing that privacy is a big issue in current cloud services, and is likely to remain so. There are a lot of other problems, including data mining, copyright, etc.--what happens when you copy from a resource into your notes, and then your notes are synch'd to a server? Are you still free and clear of copyright violations? I don't think this specific problem has really been addressed in the cloud world, and it probably won't until some copyright holder grabs the issue by the horns and figures out what to do--probably resulting in a long drawn out court case, etc.
I, personally, would prefer not to discuss what cloud means here--but, OTOH, I don't see a way to avoid it, honestly. If you don't understand the problem, you can't understand the range of solutions, nor why the solutions offered make sense.
[quote]Fact is, that is my biggest concern for the current L4 design -- it won't scale without driving up costs, and hence, our price. Shucks, I think the choice of .NET isn't the best long term approach either. It ties you into being a PC platform and I do believe mobile devices and platforms are the way of the future . . . Bob's frustrations with the lack of apparent return on the iPhone app are evidence of that in my opinion.
That's my point #1--but I'm not on that topic any longer. That's Bob's decision, and although it represents a lot of money for me, well, there's just nothing I can do there, so--we'll just have to wait and see, won't we. :-)
I'm sorry if I've not properly separated the issues in various posts, and it's not obvious I'm off the topic of whether or not I think Bob should go in this direction.
At the same time, I'm really just trying to get off the topic altogether--I think I've made the case that can be made, and others will have to think through the issues for themselves. If I could erase all the back and forth from the forum, and make one, coherent post that is "sticky," or tied to the feature request, to put the entire case in one place, I would gladly do so at this point. But I don't know of any way to do that.
:-)
Russ
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Bob Pritchett said:
I feel like this has already been beaten to death, but since it just won't go away, I'll take one more shot.
Bob, It will not go away for a reason.
To get to the point, this is one reason why I no longer support Logos on my seminary campus.
Bob Pritchett said:Almost every web site at which I've created an account will email my password to me. This is terrible security
You are correct, this is terrible security.
Bob Pritchett said:American Express is so secure that I just stopped using their site.
I stopped using a bank because of their online security was too much of a hassle. Too much security can be a bad thing.
.Bob Pritchett said:Yes, your data is your data.
I personally do not think that you (Logos) should be responsible for my data. If I want my data on your servers so I can access it from anywhere in the world, cool. If I want my data only on my computers, cool.
I keep my data in sync between all of my computers, and I weekly back my data up to an external hard drive. Therefore, I do need or want my data on your server. I should not be forced to store my data without being punished (example - having to get updates for the program via a DVD. Is Logos going to provide me with free DVD of the current updates?)
FYI...If you remember in my previous emails, I am more than just a little upset that I do not have control of my data. So much so, I have contacted my senators and my representative. My representative did call me, something that I was not expecting, concerning my issue with a company taking my personal data and storing on their servers. (S)he did assure me (note: I put as much faith in this person's assurance as I would any other politician and his/her campaign promises) that the federal government is taking a look at how companies treat personal data.
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tom collinge said:
the federal government is taking a look at how companies treat personal data.
That's almost funny. I don't mind Logos reading my notes/prayer lists half as much as the Frederal government guarding my privacy!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:tom collinge said:
the federal government is taking a look at how companies treat personal data.
That's almost funny. I don't mind Logos reading my notes/prayer lists half as much as the Frederal government guarding my privacy!
It actually is funny. The king of wire-tapping looking into how to keep our data private... ? Ha! If you believe that, I've got a nice bridge to sell you... [:)]
Try contacting instead Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR), who are involved in "activism for civil liberties in issues such as internet censorship, internet governance, malicious interference." They have a whole subgroup on Privacy. Doesn't look like they've been all that active lately in that area, though.
Here are some other sites to check with:
http://www.worldprivacyforum.org/
In particularl:
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I don't care what the future looks like:
- My typewriter works fine
- Monitors will never replace line printers
- Disks will never replace tape
- Keyboard input? I already have punch cards
- I'll never need a hard drive
- No way people will give up the command prompt
- Portable computers? Yea, right
- I'll never use that much memory
- I know it was $9000.00, but it's a PS2! The last computer I will ever need
- The internet isn't going to change things
- Dial-up is all anyone needs
- Cloud computing will never...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:
don't care what the future looks like:
- My typewriter works fine
- Monitors will never replace line printers
- Disks will never replace tape
- Keyboard input? I already have punch cards
- I'll never need a hard drive
- No way people will give up the command prompt
- Portable computers? Yea, right
- I'll never use that much memory
- I know it was $9000.00, but it's a PS2! The last computer I will ever need
- The internet isn't going to change things
- Dial-up is all anyone needs
- Cloud computing will never...
Paul every idea that you listed there seems so ridiculous when viewed by 20/20 hind sight. But question, how many technologies were supposed to be the "Next Big Thing" and failed utterly? People have concerns, just because others don't share them, doesn't mean they aren't valid.
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Terry Poperszky said:
Paul every idea that you listed there seems so ridiculous when viewed by 20/20 hind sight. But question, how many technologies were supposed to be the "Next Big Thing" and failed utterly? People have concerns, just because others don't share them, doesn't mean they aren't valid.
Agreed, and I'm not trying to belittle the concerns, it just looks like cloud computing is becoming ingrained into everything that is computing.
Nevertheless, don't you think that if cloud computing turns out to be a "flash-in-the-pan", and everybody drops it, will not Logos also?
If the programing model that L4 is written in is anything, it is most definitely flexible.
And if Bob Pritchett has shown himself to be anyone, he is most definitely someone who produces what customers want.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Mike S. said:
Fact is, that is my biggest concern for the current L4 design -- it won't scale without driving up costs, and hence, our price. Shucks, I think the choice of .NET isn't the best long term approach either. It ties you into being a PC platform and I do believe mobile devices and platforms are the way of the future . . . Bob's frustrations with the lack of apparent return on the iPhone app are evidence of that in my opinion.
Actually, our use of .NET seems to be just fine; we're successfully using it on both Windows and the Mac. (On the Mac we're doing native UI, but sharing the underlying .NET code.)
Also, the cloud is what's enabling the mobile apps. WIthout it we really couldn't afford to do them (especially for free). If your notes and licenses were on your machine, it would be a lot harder to get them to a mobile device. Our decision to build a sync architecture was driven, in large part, by our desire to let you access your own content on the device of your choice, without having to manually move data around.
(And, once again, I'd like to point out that all your files ARE on your hard drive, and we DO run without the cloud. We're mostly arguing about future direction. Right now you can run offline, backup the appdata directory, etc. Our restriction on where the files are stored is more about reducing tech support -- they're not inaccessible and unbackup-able. They're right there. We're just keeping them in one place and encouraging users (most of whom are much less technical than Russ) to let us manage them.)
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Russ White said:
Nothing like a little sarcasm to make fun of people who take privacy and data ownership seriously. Thanks.
Actually Rus he's right. If you have a computer, and if you use the Internet at all, your data is not absolutely secure. It's that simple. We all send email. That's not secure either, but we are prepared to take the risk that it is being read by others.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Bob Pritchett said:
Right now you can run offline, backup the appdata directory, etc. Our restriction on where the files are stored is more about reducing tech support -- they're not inaccessible and unbackup-able.
I wish to be able to restore a Note, or Collection, or whatever that I might have deleted or changed in error. Please add some kind of save-to-files so I can restore a lost item. We are told to treat the files as a closed black box with no user-servicable content. So a restore for a week-old backup wont work, without overwriting newer items.
Unless we have control of the sync rules, the Cloud offers no solution to this aspect. I continue to believe, at present, Logos4 has no backup ability because it has no restore of a lost item.
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Jim, I think what you're describing you want is called 'undo', not 'backup'. I have a backup of my Logos 4 installation. If I delete a collection, I can just copy the collection data files back over into my current installation from the backup, and my collection is restored. But you're talking about an undo feature.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan Burke said:
Jim, I think what you're describing you want is called 'undo', not 'backup'.
Nope - I want a BACKUP, where I can pick single items out at will, and restore / import them back.
I have MANY things over the years, on BACKUPS, that I can restore a single item: an old Word doc, a speadsheet, Outfold folders from 5 years ago, all kinds of things. What I want is the same for content I create within Logos4. Without that, the Notes and related stuff is not very useful to me, and a really bad place to create or store anything I might want to keep.
Logos3 let us do this, but Logos4 does NOT. Its a large backwards move, and not a good design in my view.
When I purchased Logos4, I even restored my old Logos2 license data file from a ghost image I still have from a PC I used to use in about 1997!!!
The design of Logos4 is that the data files are a closed black box, with no user-servicable content. I don't mind that for the application and all its files, but I consider it unacceptable for any content I create using the application. Its simple really. I wish for a real backup tool for the application!!!
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JimT said:
Nope - I want a BACKUP, where I can pick single items out at will, and restore / import them back.
This is where it gets confusing. What you describe elsewhere is an undo button, but what you describe here is the kind of backup you can do using Windows Explorer, if nothing else. You can already backup individual files separate from other resources. I can do this myself. I can restore individual files. I can write individual backup profiles for each separate Logos data folder (notes, resources, etc). I find it easier to backup the whole lot in one go, but if I wanted to restore indivdual files I can do that too, and have done. Accidentally deleted a single book? No problem I can restore that book from my hard drive backup. Accidentally delected a collection? No problem, I can restore my collection files from my hard drive backup.
Is the real problem you're identifying that Logos doesn't come with a discrete file backup feature in the program itself?
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Bob Pritchett said:
Almost every web site at which I've created an account will email my password to me. This is terrible security
WOW!!! For me, this tells me a lot about your view of security. Let me say that your view of the importance of security is not the same as mine.
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Jonathan Burke said:
I find it easier to backup the whole lot in one go, but if I wanted to restore indivdual files I can do that too, and have done.
How on earth can you restore a single Logos4 Note from late March? They are stored as rows of data in multiple tables/databases, not as files you can restore from Explorer, Ghost or any other kind of file-level backup/restore tool.
Logos has told us to not mess with the files and to treat them as having no user-servicable content. So we have no backups!!!
As far as I know, I have never asked for UNDO in this context. I have always spoken of backup and restore. I really like backups, even if I don't run one anything like as often as maybe I should. There is a difference between doing something or not, and being unable to do it at all. The cloud is NOT a backup - it can't help me with my Note from March I now really want back.
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JimT said:
I have MANY things over the years, on BACKUPS, that I can restore a single item: an old Word doc, a speadsheet
Jim
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. By your analogy of replacing a Word doc, I would gather that you would like to replace an individual note file (in my case, "Useful Commentary"). However, in another post, you wanted the ability to replace a note from March. Wouldn't that be like replacing an individual paragraph from a particular Word doc?
Of course, I could recover the Word doc and search out that individual paragraph. If I could recover a particular note file from Logos 4 without overwriting the current one, I could recover that individual note. If that is what you would like to have, I agree completely. I believe Bob mentioned an upcoming export feature. Would that accomplish the same thing?
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Paul Golder said:
And if Bob Pritchett has shown himself to be anyone, he is most definitely someone who produces what customers want.
Hmmm...
Notes; Selective updates; encrypted data; Cloud Computing...
Might be some people who disagree with you on that Paul.
But just to make myself clear, I like L4, I don't have a problem with the syncing through the "Cloud" which really isn't the Cloud, privacy isn't my issue. I successfully managed to stay out of these threads until Bob mentioned that there was a probability that Logos was heading toward a fully cloud based model. At that point, my commitment to Logos wavered and future purposes came into doubt.
To re-iterate, I do not view L4 as a cloud based architecture, the iPad/iPhone app is a cloud based architecture. If Bob's vision is to migrate L4 to a cloud based architecture solely, then Logos and I will part ways. Now a hybrid system, fine. Cloud based along side of non-cloud based, fine.
I respect the arguments and beliefs tremendously of those whose concerns are privacy, even though that is not my focus. Each of us has to act on the information that God has given us, and that is what I believe they are doing.
Now I am going to wander back into the relative safety of focusing only on the technical posts.
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Jack Caviness said:
Jim
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. By your analogy of replacing a Word doc, I would gather that you would like to replace an individual note file (in my case, "Useful Commentary"). However, in another post, you wanted the ability to replace a note from March. Wouldn't that be like replacing an individual paragraph from a particular Word doc?
Jack,
Correct - you and I are thinking different words or ideas.
When I speak of a Note as a unit, I'm always talking of the whole lump of whatever you put into the same named thing. So, in Logos4 if you use FILE/NOTES, you get a NEW one that you can rename and save. Once you have one, you can add "stuff" into it. I know the menus are called "Add Note", but to me, thats just some content, just as some new paragraphs of pages into a Word document.
I want to be able to export/save the "whole lump of named thing" as a Note to an external file. I really don't care what format its in, and I don't much care if Logos4 is the only application in the world that can import it. I just want to be able to save it somewhere, burn it to a DVD, maybe give a copy to a friend, or put it on a web site. Maybe put in a public FTP server, or on a flash drive on my keyring.
Of course, I want to be able to import it, maybe giving it a new name during the process if its a clash. Or at least an overwrite warning and the ability to do something about that.
This is not really about the cloud, which is the subject of this thread, but most of the issues with "The Cloud" is about where our data is.
Of course it would be better if the export was in some kind of format that something else could import or edit if required, but its about saving my data somewhere. Once I can save it, its MINE, unlike now where it only lives in a closed black box I can't open. No matter its on my PC drive. I don't own it if I can't do anything with it.
So, I want to be able to restore the "whole lump of named stuff" that used to be in a Note named "Comments about Lamb of God" or whatever I might have called it. Maybe its on my backup in a file named "Comments about Lamb of God.xml" or .RTF or whatever. But right now, this is impossible. The data is in rows of stuff inside closed black boxes in a private format and syntax, with no user access.
And in the example given, the one in the cloud is already deleted, or if still there, I can't access it or get it back. If its there, its got a "deleted" status so it wont ever come back. Given storage costs, I expect at most there is a tiny header, so the "delete" can sync to other devices like my iPhone (if I had one).
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Terry Poperszky said:Paul Golder said:
And if Bob Pritchett has shown himself to be anyone, he is most definitely someone who produces what customers want.
Hmmm...
Notes; Selective updates; encrypted data; Cloud Computing...
Might be some people who disagree with you on that Paul.
I am only speaking of the approximately 749,500 customers that are satisfied...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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DavidEgolf said:
Excuse me, but I also work "in the industry". I just attended the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit in San Francisco. I chose to attend a session on Clouds. The majority of the discussions after the presentations dealt precisely with this fear, uncertainty, and doubt. There were cloud adopters, cloud consultants, cloud providers; i.e., people from Google in the room. These folks were certainly not ignorant.
My own company believes that the fear and uncertainty is warranted due to the lack of answers for many of the security questions. We think that the near term solutions to privacy and control issues will not be sufficiently robust to satisfy many sectors. Moving on that belief we are developing our own "private cloud" offer which will allow larger organizations to benefit from some of the the economies of clouds using our HPC (high performance computer) offering, but totally behind their corporate firewalls.
To "cloud" or "not to cloud" is clearly a "religious" issue in the computer world. Let's not slime those who hold differing opinions as "ignorant" or "disingenuous".
I really wish there was a Private Message function in these forums. If there was, I certainly wouldn't have posted the previous message, nor this one (still thinking about not posting). It really doesn't add value to the "Logos 4" theme.
No slime intended, and it's fair to disagree with me. I believe it is disingenuous to try to start a "cloud" discussion in the Logos 4 forum around the issues raised. Why? Because this is not an IT professional forum, it's a bible software forum.
My previous point has been that we should stick to expressing the interest, or even demand, for security, backups, etc. and not try to co-opt this into something that can only produce FUD, not solutions (WRT cloud computing).
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*smile* AND! will be smiling for a while yet, Paul .......... Thank you muchly .....Paul Golder said:Terry Poperszky said:Paul Golder said:And if Bob Pritchett has shown himself to be anyone, he is most definitely someone who produces what customers want.
Hmmm...
Notes; Selective updates; encrypted data; Cloud Computing...
Might be some people who disagree with you on that Paul.
I am only speaking of the approximately 749,500 customers that are satisfied...
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Bob Pritchett said:
Actually, our use of .NET seems to be just fine; we're successfully using it on both Windows and the Mac. (On the Mac we're doing native UI, but sharing the underlying .NET code.)
My OT note there was one of those silly armchair quarterback comments. . . I'm fully aware of the use of Mono on the mac and think the product is coming along nicely.
Bob Pritchett said:Also, the cloud is what's enabling the mobile apps. WIthout it we really couldn't afford to do them (especially for free). If your notes and licenses were on your machine, it would be a lot harder to get them to a mobile device. Our decision to build a sync architecture was driven, in large part, by our desire to let you access your own content on the device of your choice, without having to manually move data around.
I like this approach of your data where you want it, and you've supplemented it nicely with offline access of selected resources.
Bob Pritchett said:(And, once again, I'd like to point out that all your files ARE on your hard drive, and we DO run without the cloud. We're mostly arguing about future direction. Right now you can run offline, backup the appdata directory, etc. Our restriction on where the files are stored is more about reducing tech support -- they're not inaccessible and unbackup-able. They're right there. We're just keeping them in one place and encouraging users (most of whom are much less technical than Russ) to let us manage them.)
I think your direction here is a good one. I'm completely on board with your managing tech support costs. Last time I looked for a company I used to work at, a phone support call cost us in the $100s of dollars. I've been shocked that you haven't moved to, or at least supplemented your support offering with an electronic ticketing and KM channels.
Fact is, I've been watching you for a few years and I've grown to respect and trust you. If my kids were getting out of college as ComSci majors, I would push them to do all they could to get a job at Logos.
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Paul Golder said:
I am only speaking of the approximately 749,500 customers that are satisfied...
Can I see your source documentation?
I have heard the 700K+ number kicked around before, but that really doesn't prove much. It would be interesting to see the retention rate (how many people use it after purchase). What the version distribution of those purchases are, and what percentage have upgraded to the next version. How many have purchased additional books.
Anyone can sell something once, return customers are a sign of a satisfied customer base.
(Which by definition makes me a satisfied customer since I have upgrade 3 times, and purchased way to many additional books).
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Terry Poperszky said:Paul Golder said:
I am only speaking of the approximately 749,500 customers that are satisfied...
Can I see your source documentation?
I wish I could fulfill your request, but alas I am only a satisfied customer, and am not privileged to such documentation.
I believe you would have to contact the source directly: bob at logos dot com
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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JimT said:
How on earth can you restore a single Logos4 Note from late March?
By restoring my entire note folder from my backup on my hard drive. Simple. I would hardly wait three months to restore a note I deleted by accident, would I?
JimT said:Logos has told us to not mess with the files and to treat them as having no user-servicable content. So we have no backups!!!
No backups means that it's impossible to backup your data. But with Logos it is not impossible to backup your data. I am not talking about the cloud, I am talking about a backup stored on your own hard drive. A backup is by definition a spare copy of your original data. You can't say it is impossible to create a spare (local, not cloud), copy of your original data, when all you have to do is drag them to another hard drive or copy/paste them into another location on the same drive. I backup all my Logos data on a regular basis.
This is why I believe you're asking for an undo feature. You want to be able to undo individual errors, such as an accidentally deleted collection or note.
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Jack Caviness said:
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. By your analogy of replacing a Word doc, I would gather that you would like to replace an individual note file (in my case, "Useful Commentary"). However, in another post, you wanted the ability to replace a note from March. Wouldn't that be like replacing an individual paragraph from a particular Word doc?
Very helpful Jack, I was about to draw the same analogy. So if I accidentally delete a paragraph in my Word file, close the Word file, then open the Word file and find that I can't restore the original paragraph, does this mean Microsoft doesn't let me backup my Word files? I don't think so.
I can backup my Word files. I can restore a single paragraph to my current Word document by loading an earlier copy of the entire document (not the single paragraph), and then use that earlier copy as the default copy. In this analogy:
* Word document = complete Logos 'Notes' folder
* Paragraph = individual Logos 'note'Can a Word document be backed up? Yes. Can the Notes folder be backed up? Yes. Can you restore a single paragraph by loading a previous copy of an entire Word document? Yes. Can you restore a single note by loading a previous copy of the Logos 'Notes' folder? Yes.
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JimT said:
I want to be able to export/save the "whole lump of named thing" as a Note to an external file. I really don't care what format its in, and I don't much care if Logos4 is the only application in the world that can import it. I just want to be able to save it somewhere, burn it to a DVD, maybe give a copy to a friend, or put it on a web site. Maybe put in a public FTP server, or on a flash drive on my keyring.
I do this too. Just copy/paste it into Word or Wordpad.
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Some people don't listen, or want to trust someone knows what they want.
I'm not looking for undo, I want a backup and restore for user content in Logos4. We do not have that at present.
(See me earlier comments about the new named thing you get if you select File / Notes. Its one of those that I'm calling a Note. Its a "file" ok, holding stuff. I want to back it up.)
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JimT said:
So, I want to be able to restore the "whole lump of named stuff" that used to be in a Note named "Comments about Lamb of God" or whatever I might have called it. Maybe its on my backup in a file named "Comments about Lamb of God.xml" or .RTF or whatever.
I would call that a note file, and it would be good if we could back up at this level. Now, we only have a single file named "notes". Perhaps an export function will provide the needed control.
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Jonathan Burke said:
Can a Word document be backed up? Yes. Can the Notes folder be backed up? Yes. Can you restore a single paragraph by loading a previous copy of an entire Word document? Yes. Can you restore a single note by loading a previous copy of the Logos 'Notes' folder? Yes.
That can be done, but I believe it would be a little more complex than restoring a paragraph in a Word doc. You would need to take steps to insure that you did not overwrite new notes.
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JimT said:
How on earth can you restore a single Logos4 Note from late March?
If you have a good enough memory to recall one deleted note from last March, why do you need to restore it? Just work from your memory.
This whole issue seems like you are asking Logos to build in a disaster recovery for every boo-boo you could possibly make. Why delete any notes? Just highlight your "erroneous" notes with a different color so you will be able to revisit them later to see if you indeed have vaselated and returned to the "erroneous" original opinions. [:O]
btw: If you never destroy your DAILY incremental backups you can always restore them to Logos 4 in offine mode. I've still got backups from 1995. Fer real!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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JimT said:
I'm not looking for undo, I want a backup and
restore for user content in Logos4. We do not have that at
present.Jim, I back them all up. Just copy/paste your
'Notes' folder. It's important to be clear that what you really mean is 'I want notes to be stored in discrete files rather than in one file'. You are not actually saying 'It is impossible to backup and restore user content in Logos 4'.Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Yes. But this doesn't change the fact that the data can be backed up, and can be restored. Of course, if you deleted a note accidentally, would you restore your backed up noes file, or would you delete your backup note file, over-write your current notes file, wait three months while you over-write your current notes file several more times, and then start wondering if you had a backup? I'd restore it immediately by copying over my current notes file with my backup notes file. Problem solved.Jack Caviness said:That can be done, but I believe it would be a little more complex than restoring a paragraph in a Word doc. You would need to take steps to insure that you did not overwrite new notes.
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Matthew, good points. Excellent points.
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Jonathan Burke said:
Jim, I back them all up. Just copy/paste your 'Notes' folder. It's important to be clear that what you really mean is 'I want notes to be stored in discrete files rather than in one file'. You are not actually saying 'It is impossible to backup and restore user content in Logos 4'.
NOPE!!! Thats not at all what I really mean.
Its OK that everything lives in a massive database somewhere. Thats not the problem. I want to export/backup to discrete files. One file per "named thing" under the FILE / OPEN panel. By that standard, we do not have backups.
I'm having a hard time thinking of any other piece of software I've used or have that does not store or export/backup to files that I can then store somewhere. Logos3 knows how to do it.
I don't think I'll continue this thead. Logos4 does not have backups. Its a big problem and an important weakness with the application. End
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The following is just my personal approach to backups and should not be taken as an official Logos position....
On my Mac, I use Time Machine to backup my entire installation. The backup includes Logos 4 files. Every time the notes db is updated, Time Machine makes a backup. If I had a problem with data loss, I would only need to go to Time Machine, and I could restore the notes db. My backups go back several months. And with Time Machine, I can restore just the note file db.
I don't think Windows has a built-in system for backup, so you may need to find a solution since Microsoft does not give you a way to create backups.
Blessings
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Paul Golder said:Terry Poperszky said:Paul Golder said:
I am only speaking of the approximately 749,500 customers that are satisfied...
Can I see your source documentation?
I wish I could fulfill your request, but alas I am only a satisfied customer, and am not privileged to such documentation.
I believe you would have to contact the source directly: bob at logos dot com
Which is why I cringe when I hear people say "most users want this" or "...there are multitudes of users who are unsatisfied"....
None here on these boards know much of what goes on at Logos though we talk like we do.... [:$]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Thanks Joe. You always seem to bring a calming effect so I welcome hearing from you.
The problem is not with making a complete copy of everything. There is software for Windows that does that fine. I have Symantec Ghost and Nortons 360 and use both at times, along with manual copies of files to external USB drives and/or making CD or DVD copies of selected data.
The problem with Logos4 is that everything lives inside a closed black box. No selective backup/restore. Thats the issue.
In the most recent PC Beta, we can export some stuff to text files in rtf format. If thats done for Notes too, that will address it in part. What we don't know is if it includes everything, or will exclude some of the finer metadata. And if they can then be imported back into Logos4.
I want to be able to go back to any time in the past that I might have backups for, and select a single Notes "File" (named lump of "notes") for restore.
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Robert Pavich said:
None here on these boards know much of what goes on at Logos though we talk like we do....
[Y]
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Thanks brother. I do recognize there are other questions about making backups of individual files. I don't have any insight on that front. Sorry. I just thought I would point out how I do backups for those reading along and who might not even be aware of this option for doing a local backup.JimT said:Thanks Joe. You always seem to bring a calming effect so I welcome hearing from you.
The problem is not with making a complete copy of everything. There is software for Windows that does that fine. I have Symantec Ghost and Nortons 360 and use both at times, along with manual copies of files to external USB drives and/or making CD or DVD copies of selected data.
Blessings brother.
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JimT said:
I want to export/backup to discrete files. One file per "named thing" under the FILE / OPEN panel. By that standard, we do not have backups.
As I said earlier Jim, this does not mean we do not have backups. It means we don't have discrete note files.
JimT said:I'm having a hard time thinking of any other piece of software I've used or have that does not store or export/backup to files that I can then store somewhere. Logos3 knows how to do it
You can backup all your Logos 4 files to elsewhere. What you mean is that Logos 4 does not store individual notes in discrete files. if I take a drive image, that's a backup. But the drive image isn't a set of discrete files, it's one very large file (sometimes two or three files), which stores all the discrete files inside it. You can't say that a drive image program doesn't allow you to backup your data just because it produces a drive image rather than copying files discretely 1:1.
JimT said:Logos4 does not have backups
No, you mean Logos 4 does not store individual notes in discrete files.
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JimT said:
In the most recent PC Beta, we can export some stuff to text files in rtf format. If thats done for Notes too, that will address it in part.
As I said, copy/paste into Word. Simple.
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Joe Miller said:
On my Mac, I use Time Machine to backup my entire installation. The backup includes Logos 4 files. Every time the notes db is updated, Time Machine makes a backup. If I had a problem with data loss, I would only need to go to Time Machine, and I could restore the notes db. My backups go back several months. And with Time Machine, I can restore just the note file db.
I made the same point. Jim says this is not a real backup.
Joe Miller said:I don't think Windows has a built-in system for backup, so you may need to find a solution since Microsoft does not give you a way to create backups.
Windows has a built in system for backups in several different ways. You can backup by image, you can backup differentially, you can set restore points, and a range of other options.
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Jonathan Burke said:
No, you mean Logos 4 does not store individual notes in discrete files.
Jonathan, I have no interest in continuing this with you. Without a discrete restore of an item, there is no backup. Leave it be OK. Logos4 does NOT provide backups. The data is stored as a sealed black box. Logos says so themselves.
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JimT said:
Without a discrete restore of an item, there is no backup.
No Jim, without a discrete restore of an item there is no selective backup of discrete notes. There is a 'global level' backup of all notes. It's important to make sure people don't get the idea that Logos somehow prevents you copying data on your own machine, or stops programs like Norton Ghost from working. It doesn't.
Some people might get concerned that if they want to backup their Logos resource folder (a step critical to one of the several re-install methods recommended by Logos technical support), what you're saying is that Logos will somehow stop them copying it to another location. That isn't true.
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For the record Jim, I also would like to be able to backup notes in discrete note files, and export them natively from Logos 4. I can live without it, but it would be nice. I'm just concerned that when members here read 'Logos 4 doesn't let you backup your data', they don't get the wrong idea, since this is precisely what technical support will tell them they can do.
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JimT said:
The data is stored as a sealed black box.
In general, users prefer to consider data a black box. They simply want the program to do the functions for which they bought it and not cause any problems. Logos has chosen to be an idiot-proof system for the general public rather than a Bible study integrated development environment for the technophile. I chafe at this when it comes to search arguments that don't work as I expect. I want to see the actual query. Then I have to remind myself that the bulk of their customers probably really don't want to see the actual query.
In fact, Logos data is anything but sealed. Any decent SQLite browser puts it at your fingertips - a fact I used to track down and report a copy & paste bug that has consequently been fixed. [No, I didn't need to muck with security.] With a backup of the databases and a little technical skill, you can recover information in manners that warms any techie's heart. However, I wouldn't want Logos to ever "admit" this because a techie-wanna-be could put themselves into very hairy situations. And, unfortunately, there are lots of techie-wanna-be who think they are full fledged techies.
P.S. I chose to blame the education system for not teaching enough logic for the lack of demand for the actual, formal query [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
In general, users prefer to consider data a black box.
Um ... NO.
If you need an SQL browser to extract undocumented fields from undocuments tables in undocumented databases, its not a backup.
I've got nothing more to say as this is going nowhere useful. Trust me, a single blob of data as a sealed snapshot with no selective restore of an item is not a backup.
Beside, someone accused me of reverse-engineering the application, and pointed at the EULA when I commented about some portion of the data or internet traffic flows.
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