Reverting back to the Old ToolBar
Is it possible to revert back to the old toolbar? I am still frustrated with the new tool bar. I'm so tired of having to look at every tab to try to find what I want to do. I just can't remember where all the functions I use are. At least I wish I could customize the thing so I can have at hand what I use the most. Recently I wanted to display the page number in a book. I couldn't find it.
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Install an older version of Logos.
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Or unsubscribe? At least for the time being?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for the responses. I anticipated the answer would be no. Just giving in to my frustration so my apologies. I just can't seem to navigate to the features I use for study without spending time trying to locate them.
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Frustration is understandable. The consolation is that unless you are brain dead, the new locations will eventually become habitual.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I agree, the original toolbar was far superior. To no avail, I have begged Logos to allow users the option to use original toolbar. Yes, I can see why the "dynamic" toolbar might be better for first time Logos users. But for regular users it's defiantly a big step backwards. The new toolbar takes up more screen space and adds a lot more clutter to the layout. Most importantly, it requires a lot more clicks to perform common frequently repeated tasks that are common in Bible study. This change was a poor decision by Logos management in my opinion.
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I don't have a poll (idea!) but I can't imagine that many people really prefer that dreaded toolbar. But I suspect it is the way it's going to be anyway. When I sprained my ankle recently, I got used to crutches, but I was so happy when I didn't need them anymore. We don't have to put everyone on crutches and hope that in time they will figure them out and love them.
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There might be some hope for you in your concerns in that Mark Barnes indicated in the last webcast that there is some additional thinking going into the toolbar. It may not solve your efficiencies entirely, but it might help.
If you don't want to watch the entire webcast, go to about 25:00 minutes in:
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Excellent logic.
As much as I laugh at the new toolbar (knowing it'll eventually turn its inefficient eyes in my direction), I do think the experience will pay-off in the form of a better subscription toolbar (customizable!). If they didn't do such a bad job, there wouldn't be a payback on a better one. (Using Paul's logic on sin and justification).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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No shade to the OP, as everyone has their opinion, but I do want to chime in as Logos staff read these threads: some of us like the new toolbar. I find it vastly superior to the old, which would lose buttons and functionality with narrower panes. I do have to sometimes hunt to find buttons in the new bar, but at least they are there.
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I find it vastly superior to the old, which would lose buttons and functionality with narrower panes.
They should have scrapped the entire user interface and modernized it. When they first began talking about the toolbar, I thought it would be like the Ribbon toolbar in Microsoft Office. It works on whichever windows is highlighted, and this does not have to appear a dozen times on the screen for a complex layout.
if they would have scrapped the old interface completely, they could’ve modernized it made it easy to use and made it touch friendly at the same time. Then it would be able to run on tablets as well as desktop computers.
What they did is make some changes to an old and obsolete design, and the majority of users did not even want it. A bandaid fix for an imaginary problem.
Yes there are some on the forum who are cheerleaders of what is going on with Logos. They are very vocal and over-represented on the forum.
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I've been a Logos user since the Libronix days. Lots of muscle memory built up over those years.
Yes, it took some getting used to, but I now prefer the new toolbar and would not want to go back.
Wish there was a simple shortcut for turning interlinear on and off though.
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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@Mark Barnes (Logos) addresses this in the video link that I posted earlier in this thread.
Do you know about the keyboard shortcuts as a workaround for now?
• Inline Reverse Interlinear (displays interlinear information within the text):
• Windows: Ctrl + I
• Mac: Cmd + I
• Reverse Interlinear Pane (shows interlinear information in a pane at the bottom):
• Windows: Ctrl + Shift + R
• Mac: Cmd + Shift + R
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Cmd+I — Toggle Inline Reverse Interlinear on or off
Shift+Cmd+ R — Show/Hide Interlinear Pane
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I am another long time user who prefers the new toolbar. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks! 😎
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"I thought it would be like the Ribbon toolbar in Microsoft Office. It works on whichever windows is highlighted, and this does not have to appear a dozen times on the screen for a complex layout."
That's probably the one big reason I'm not updating (nor subscribing). It's a stupid design (I admit 'stupid' is a bit extreme!). On a window in my layout, there'd be 10 menus. I remember in my early UI learning days … repeating the menu that many times was a no-no (looked stupid). And takes up precious vertical space.
Then there's the false argument, they 'measured it' and new users 'discovered' … as if any improvement is proof positive! Early users still have to trudge thru the mouse-clicks with all their discoveries … 'forever'.
I'd have repeated the magic of the right-click. A single menu-icon to pop a nice panel, with all the options that can easily be discovered, and 2 clicks in general. Add drag-an-icon to the panel header for customization! And watch those subscriptions go crazy! $$$. Everyone a subscriber!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Some insightful thoughts in this thread. I think the Dynamic toolbar is pretty good as is, but I'm most excited about where it is going. Having only one toolbar would be neat, but there would be a lot of accidental navigation with users not selecting the correct window before clicking the menu options.
Logos has a lot of features. For this reason I think trying to shrink the toolbar is difficult. But brainstorming is fun to do and to read. I would like to hold a poll in about a year when I expect the toolbar to be finished to see how people are enjoying the final product. I expect a happy ending.
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I can imagine that many people prefer the "dreaded" toolbar and would never use that term to describe it. The reason that I can is that the complaints revolve around very specific functions that many users set once and leave rather than toggling AND the movement of actions from the panel menu into the "dreaded" toolbar makes it faster for the users that use those functions heavily. I agree there is still some tweaking to be done for the constant-toggle users and I personally think there is one more function to move for the panel-menu users but Logos statistics that they've shared indicates it has positive results in the discovery area, a significant goal for the redesign.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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From day 1 I thought the search tab had been given too much space for only one function. Compared to all the other tabs in which the features share their space so generously, search looks pretty selfish. "Find" would be a welcome companion.
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They should have scrapped the entire user interface and modernized it. When they first began talking about the toolbar, I thought it would be like the Ribbon toolbar in Microsoft Office. It works on whichever windows is highlighted, and this does not have to appear a dozen times on the screen for a complex layout.
Stop and think about it. The Microsoft Office model works well because it has a single window active at a time with panes that only apply to that window. Logos allows us to have many independent panes in multiple windows each with their own set of possible settings. Think how often users forget to select an item on the left of the Context Menu; now think how many would forget to select the panel. Nope, a pear solution doesn't work for a pomegranate. One way Logos could get a cleaner look is by making the entire toolbar a slide menu - like the wide version of the application toolbar. That would add an extra step but free up a lot of screen space. Slide menus often have a lock in place feature for those who prefer that it be visible.
Vote at Convert resource/panel toolbars into slide menus — Logos Community if you think this is a worthwhile improvement/tweak.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Since she rarely does it …
On behalf of DBM: Add drag-an-icon to the panel header for customization! — Logos Community
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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One way Logos could get a cleaner look is by making the entire toolbar a slide menu - like the wide version of the application toolbar. That would add an extra step but free up a lot of screen space.
@MJ. Smith Can you explain how this differs from the prefer minimized option that Mark recently announced is coming?
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What about a right click tab → lock toolbar setting that would minimize the entire toolbar all the way up to the tab until the user unlocked that tab? I think that would be pretty cool for layouts where you have windows that never or hardly ever need changing. Or perhaps this is what you were talking about @MJ. Smith?
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Oops your link is to the top of the thread not to Mark's post. IIRC he was leaving one line of the toolbar, I am suggesting only the tab with the resource identifier is visible (perhaps with DBM's pinned icons). In addition, the manner of painting the screen of a slide menu is likely different and more standard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Looks like I have to click on a comment's timestamp before copying a link. Duly noted.
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The Microsoft Office model works well because it has a single window active at a time with panes that only apply to that window.
The correct term is not “active window”, but which object (not necessarily a window) has the current focus. And Logos does not handle things any differently. The way Logos does it now is each document havining a separate menu, so clearly it only works on that one document (single window) at a time. I fail to see why it could not “work well”. I think it would work exceedingly well. Programming using Microsoft tools only allows you to do things the Microsoft way.
I’m thinking the power behind the Office Ribbon is being oversimplified into a pomegranate?
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The issue is that a solution for one software program isn't always effective for another software program. For the way Logos currently works, one toolbar for all panels would not be efficient. Imagine a 3-monitor setup with 10+ panels open. Imagine the distance the user would have to travel with the mouse to access the menu depending on where the user is currently focused. Not to mention verifying that the correct panel is selected every single time the menu needs to be used.
But I like the thought. There are definitely constructive elements to it.
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That would also work
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The correct term is not “active window”, but which object (not necessarily a window) has the current focus. And Logos does not handle things any differently.
I was speaking as I would to a user. I didn't know you were comfortable with developer terms ..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@MJ. Smith did you mean DMB rather than DBM?
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Thanks for the shortcuts, Donovan and Jack!
I printed them out until I can get them into muscle memory.Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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I came to the forums precisely to complain about the graphical user interface. I use Logos for advanced Biblical Hebrew academic work and the interface drives me crazy. I find it totally counter-intuitive, with options all over the place and never where I look for them. There are tabs and buttons and menus all over the place.
I really wish they would design it from scratch, working with professional GUI experts.I have to keep emailing support asking how to do the most basic things.
For example, today, when I clicked on a verse reference in HALOT, it opened up WIVU-CT, which I want to change instead to plain Hebrew text. But can I find out how to do this? I can't, so I just email support (again).I thought, perhaps if I right-click on the reference, it will show me a link to the verse, but no, it gives me instead all these options, none of which includes just Jer 6:25 in BHS (!!!!!).
It is really frustrating.
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I have to keep emailing support asking how to do the most basic things.
I have two suggestions that might help:
- The Help team is geared towards solving software problems - problems installing, program freeze, etc. They are not the best source of training in using the software. Ask in the forums or use the Help Center built into the app or use the various training videos … Ask, ask, ask in the forums
- You want "which I want to change instead to plain Hebrew text. But can I find out how to do this?" Unfortunately, I don't quite understand what you mean … are you wanting to look the reference up in a Hebrew Bible? If so, Lookup offers 5 choices under lookup - the first two in Hebrew. To change which 5 resources are shown you set priorities. I used vocabulary that will be recognized by the Help Center and people on the forums. how do you learn it? Ask in the forums and watch the training videos - knowing an answer in isolation doesn't really teach you the app.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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- I find searching the forums and help center for answers to my questions equally difficult. One has to scroll through dozens of hits and then all the answers, with no guarantee that the answer will be there.
2. Neither WIVU or AFAT are BHS. I want to look up BHS at this point. I don't want those 5 choices. You say "Set Priorities" - where is that? and more to the point, why isn't an option to do that available at the point where you see these lookups? that's basic GUI 101. As I have said in a few posts, and to Logos support, I find the GUI counter-intuitive, cluttered, and very time-consuming to work out.
I want to spend my time working on the Hebrew text, not searching through forums and emailing support for what should be very straight-forward options to adjust.
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Studying a Passage in Its Original Language – Logos Help Center and Context Menu – Logos Help Center are likely helpful.
To repeat myself asking on the forums is the most efficient way of learning Logos for people like myself; for many others it is watching the training videos. Either is a more effective use of your time than not being able to find features.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@Matthew Anstey wrote:
You say "Set Priorities" - where is that?
Logos needs to be informed about the resources you prefer it to display first. Here is a video clip that explains how:
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019683652-Prioritize-Books
I'm not a big fan of the Prioritization Pane's design, but it does function reasonably well.
If you haven't done it, another option to consider is using collections to provide better access to your preferred resources. I have one for 'Hebrew Texts, ' and when I am in one of my Hebrew texts, I can click the icon at the top next to the reference, and it will display my preferred Hebrew texts:
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016299092-Create-and-Use-Resource-Collections
Logos is a bit of a Swiss Army knife, and the power of this is that you can develop your own workflows because there are multiple ways to achieve the same thing.
MJ is correct. Feel free to come to the forum anytime; we are eager to help you. Start a new post on one topic to attract focused support. The community here is fantastic, and I have learned a lot about this powerful piece of software and still learn all the time after 20+ years.
P.S. - (Sorry, I don't know why the forum software is not rendering the above links as links. You will need to copy and paste them into your browser.) Tagging @Jason Stone (Logos) on this in case I am missing something or if there is an issue we need to resolve.
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P.S. - (Sorry, I don't know why the forum software is not rendering the above links as links. You will need to copy and paste them into your browser.) Tagging @Jason Stone (Logos) on this in case I am missing something or if there is an issue we need to resolve.
That's what happens when the site does not respond - you get that message in the lower left. It annoys me because it rejects many legit links in my tips
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you, @MJ. Smith. Support page links are a known issue, and we’re actively looking to resolve that.
Sr. Community Manager at Logos.
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The new toolbar is great once you really get used to it and accept it as the new kid in town. It just takes more time for some than others.
DAL
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I think allowing some customization and shortcuts will go a long way to make this workable for everyone.
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