making OL work in Logos as smooth as possible

Kristin
Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭
in English Forum

I am starting this thread per the advice of @Justin Gatlin, and I am hoping to achieve the best way to do OL work, specifically, searching the "lemma" (which I think everyone knows at this point, but just to clarify, is called a "lexeme" in Accordance). Also, in these examples I will put steps in brackets, and hope that the program doesn't create emojis. Ok, with that as a preface…

As an example, starting with Lk 1:4 in Accordance, I have the ESV on the left, the Greek as a parallel on the right, let's say I want to find all the hits of κατηχήθης. So I click κατηχήθης (1) and click "lexeme" (2) all of the hits appear in a new tab with the Greek now on the left and the ESV on the right. All of the hits are highlighted in green which is distinct from the color words become when they are just randomly rolled over. The text is large (as in, not just a side panel), and if I want to detach the tab and make it a new workspace/ layout I can!). Importantly, if I want to go back to my prior tab I can, and my text is still preserved.

By contrast in Logos with the same setup with the ESV and Greek on the left and right, I click κατηχήθης (1), click the lemma wheel (2) click κατηχέω under search (3) and it not only took an extra step, but now the results are in this awkward side panel next to the Hebrew. :/ Furthermore, the highlighted words from being searched are yellow, which is the exact same color as words just being hovered over.

This weird side panel (as opposed to it opening in a new tab) isn't great. So this time I right click on κατηχήθης (1) click the lemma wheel (2) click "Inline" (3) and while it thankfully opened in the main section, it has now eaten my text and all the random instances of κατηχέω have taken over my Luke text. So that is also unacceptable.

So now I try to click κατηχήθης (1), click the lemma wheel (2) and click "Bible" (3) which not only puts it in that side panel, but puts it in parallel with two random versions. So that is for sure not what I am looking for.

Ok, now … bla bla "All Open" (3) also requires three steps to produce a side panel. Same with "All". This "All" isn't what I am looking for but this is a way to get to the equivalent of Accordance "Research" correct? It appears to have a disadvantage though as it is appearing in this side panel, and obviously I can't detach the tab and make it a layout, so that seems problematic.

So then finally I click k κατηχήθης (1), click the lemma wheel (2) and click "κατηχέω @ vap12s" (3) which brings up a separate panel of only Lk 1:4. That looks interesting, but not what I am looking for.

Apparently the one I need is the Inline, as the only problem with it is that it eats my work. So then I guess I need to start with Lk 1:4, then duplicate the tab (1) right click on κατηχήθης (2) click the lemma wheel (3) click "Inline" (4) just to preserve my work?? And then when I hover over words, it turns the same color as the word searched?

So I wanted to start the process over and so I went to the top where it says "Lue 1:4" and pressed "enter" thinking it would clear everything out and give me Lk 1:4, 5, 6 etc. But even after pressing enter it does nothing and my text still says Lk 1:4, Ac 18:25, Ac 21:21, etc, etc (from the Inline search).

I take it the only way to get back to where I was is to go to the "Passage or topic" thing on the top left and start over? So I do, and it takes a minute to open, and now it opened the ESV on the left, Greek on the right, but these two texts are only on half the screen since a random book opened on the right.

This is all just so clunky. So then I go back to Accordance and I want to search for the Strongs key numbers. So this time I right click on "taught" (1) click "key number" (2) and like before, the results appear in a new tab, my old work is preserved, the ESV is there on the left and Greek on the right, and if I want to detach the tab it becomes a full-fledged new workspace (layout).

So everything is just faster in Accordance and I am sort of frustrated. I guess my goals are as follows:

  1. To understand how to search for the lemma and have it appear in a NEW TAB next to my work, and not eat my work and not appear in a weird side panel in as few steps as possible (hopefully two like Accordance).
  2. Have the highlight color of searched words be unique from the highlight color words appear when they are just hovered over.
  3. Ideas how to sort of compensate for having only one layout open at a time. Someone previously mentioned the idea of using the web version as a separate layout (which was a really good idea), but so far I have had some technical issues with it, as the web version apparently is missing some key features of the app (such as lacking a parallel button, for example).

I think those are my main issues at the moment.

I appreciate any thoughts anyone has. I understand there is a learning curve, but a lot of what I am describing is an extra step, which might not seem like a big deal, but it really is when you do something a thousand times a day.

Comments

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 12

    By contrast in Logos with the same setup with the ESV and Greek on the left and right, I click κατηχήθης (1), click the lemma wheel (2) click κατηχέω under search (3) and it not only took an extra step, but now the results are in this awkward side panel next to the Hebrew.

    I haven't found a disadvantage here in Logos. Step 2 is unnecessary if lemma is the most recently selected item from the context menu, so this becomes a 2-step process in Logos as well if the process is being repeated. I don't understand what you mean about the awkward side panel. The results either open for me in a new tab as I would expect, or by pressing Shift+left-click, they open in a new window.

    To understand how to search for the lemma and have it appear in a NEW TAB next to my work, and not eat my work and not appear in a weird side panel in as few steps as possible (hopefully two like Accordance).

    Shift+left-click on Inline search

    Have the highlight color of searched words be unique from the highlight color words appear when they are just hovered over.

    I tried to discuss this once before, but I'm not sure I expressed myself clearly. You should experiment with the various emphasize corresponding words options under your visual filters button. Let me know if you need more clarification on what I mean with that. We cannot choose the highlight colors, but we can influence them. Same word, Same surface text, Same lemma, and Same root all have their own designated color. Perhaps it would work better for you to emphasize "Same lemma" instead of "Same word" in order to avoid the yellow highlight. Multiple options can be selected which will stack the highlights and change the color.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    Hi @Aaron Hamilton,

    Thank you for your response.

    I haven't found a disadvantage here in Logos. Step 2 is unnecessary if lemma is the most recently selected item from the context menu, so this becomes a 2-step process in Logos as well if the process is being repeated. 

    Oh! That helps a lot!! Thank you! :)

    I don't understand what you mean about the awkward side panel. The results either open for me in a new tab as I would expect, or by pressing Shift+left-click, they open in a new window.

    I am not sure what I am doing wrong, so I will post a screenshot.

    Bildschirmfoto 2025-03-12 um 16.58.23.png

    … or by pressing Shift+left-click, they open in a new window.

    Could you clarify this more? If I press shift or not there isn't a change.

    I tried to discuss this once before, but I'm not sure I expressed myself clearly. You should experiment with the various emphasize corresponding words options under your visual filters button. Let me know if you need more clarification on what I mean with that. We cannot choose the highlight colors, but we can influence them. Same word, Same surface text, Same lemma, and Same root all have their own designated color. Perhaps it would work better for you to emphasize "Same lemma" instead of "Same word" in order to avoid the yellow highlight. Multiple options can be selected which will stack the highlights and change the color.

    Thank you for explaining this again. I kind of don't think I can accomplish what I am looking to, as when I turned the surface text off it stopped highlighting where my mouse is, and I use that too much to find my place in the text.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 33,126

    By contrast in Logos with the same setup with the ESV and Greek on the left and right, I click κατηχήθης (1), click the lemma wheel (2) click κατηχέω under search (3) and it not only took an extra step, but now the results are in this awkward side panel next to the Hebrew. :/ Furthermore, the highlighted words from being searched are yellow, which is the exact same color as words just being hovered over.

    This weird side panel (as opposed to it opening in a new tab) isn't great. So this time I right click on κατηχήθης (1) click the lemma wheel (2) click "Inline" (3) and while it thankfully opened in the main section, it has now eaten my text and all the random instances of κατηχέω have taken over my Luke text. So that is also unacceptable.

    Can I just take this section of what you wrote to explore - and leave the rest of it until I am clear I understand what the issue is?

    I have reproduced the "ESV on the left with parallel Greek text" on the left of the screen and show the results of a lemma search on the right (to which I have added a parallel Greek text). As you can see, I have set the search panel on the right to be the target of searches. Now, I can right-click any word in the ESV, select the lemma on the right of the context menu and select the Bible search option on the right and the search panel on the right of the screen will be updated.

    image.png

    Does this help at all?

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 12

    Thank you for explaining this again. I kind of don't think I can accomplish what I am looking to, as when I turned the surface text off it stopped highlighting where my mouse is, and I use that too much to find my place in the text.

    The highlight color for "Same surface text" is purple, not yellow. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. I agree that using yellow to highlight "Same word" is a bit awkward. A different color would be preferable to distinguish it from search results. Or the ability to customize colors would be ideal.

    Could you clarify this more? If I press shift or not there isn't a change.

    1. Right-click the word in an English Bible
    2. Select lemma on the left side of the context menu (if it isn't already selected)
    3. On the right side of the context menu, next to "Search:", hold Shift and left-click on "Inline"
    4. A new window opens with the search results, and the current tab is unaffected

    That said, Graham's solution of "Send searches here" may work better.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    Hi @Graham Criddle and @Aaron Hamilton,

    Thank you both for your help. In light of what you both wrote and Graham's screenshot, I think the floating window is what I need, I think. I think I have the following questions / comments:

    1. If I am understanding correctly, if I have it to send search results here, each new hit will write over that one place. However, if send search results here is not turned on, then each new search will create a new search panel. This appears to be the case, but I am not sure.
    2. If I click shift and inline, it will create an inline result in a floating window and not eat my prior work, which is really helpful. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to preserve that floating window, and when I clicked on a new word it wrote over that window. Is there a way to preserve that and have a new search create a new floating window?

    The highlight color for "Same surface text" is purple, not yellow. Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

    It appears to be yellow for me. In this screenshot I searched for κατηχέω and my mouse is just randomly hovering over ἵνα. Through testing stuff I had previously searched for ζέων and I have no idea why it is still highlighted, but old searches, the current search, and where my mouse happens to be is all yellow.

    Bildschirmfoto 2025-03-12 um 17.37.35.png

    Also, on a side note, it took me a minute to respond since Logos kept doing this spinning wheel and I had to force quit it a few times. Apple then wanted me to send the error report to them, which I did, but I am not sure if that is helpful or not since it isn't a Mac program.

    Anyway thank you both again for your help, and to Graham's question, of course it is fine to only respond to part at a time. :)

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 12

    If I am understanding correctly, if I have it to send search results here, each new hit will write over that one place.

    Correct.

    However, if send search results here is not turned on, then each new search will create a new search panel. This appears to be the case, but I am not sure.

    Each search will create a new search tab. This should result in multiple search tabs within the same panel.

    If I click shift and inline, it will create an inline result in a floating window and not eat my prior work, which is really helpful. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to preserve that floating window, and when I clicked on a new word it wrote over that window. Is there a way to preserve that and have a new search create a new floating window?

    I am not experiencing this problem. I just tried this 10 times and it opened 10 new floating windows. Perhaps your windows are popping up one on top of the other? They should all be there, perhaps just covered.

    Also, on a side note, it took me a minute to respond since Logos kept doing this spinning wheel and I had to force quit it a few times.

    Logos just released (today) a new update, v40.2. Hopefully once this update has installed correctly on your machine, certain performance issues will be resolved.

    It appears to be yellow for me. In this screenshot I searched for κατηχέω and my mouse is just randomly hovering over ἵνα.

    Below are the options I am referring to. Each of the options under Corresponding words should result in a different color highlight. Unfortunately, these colors cannot be personalized.

    Untitled.png
  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,763
    edited March 13

    to be persnickety, I hope this statement is false

    searching the "lemma" (which I think everyone knows at this point, but just to clarify, is called a "lexeme" in Accordance). 

    lemma and lexeme are not the same thing so one company or the other would have made a major blunder for this to be true.

    From Perplexity:

    Lemma and lexeme are related but distinct concepts in linguistics:

    Definitions

    Lemma: The canonical form or dictionary form of a word. It's the specific form chosen to represent a set of related word forms.

    Lexeme: An abstract unit of lexical meaning that encompasses all the inflected forms of a word.

    Key Differences

    • Abstraction Level:Lexeme: More abstract, representing a set of related word forms.Lemma: A concrete form used to represent the lexeme.
    • Representation:Lexeme: Includes all inflected forms (e.g., "run," "runs," "ran," "running").Lemma: The specific form chosen for dictionary entries (e.g., "run").
    • Scope:Lexeme: Can include multiple related meanings.Lemma: Typically represents a single dictionary entry.
    • Usage in NLP (natural language processing):Lemmatization is more commonly used in NLP than lexemization.Lemmatization may not fully capture the distinction between different lexemes with the same spelling.

    Example

    For the verb "to go":

    Lexeme: Includes all forms like "go," "goes," "went," "gone," "going"

    Lemma: "go" (the infinitive form chosen to represent this set in English)

    In conclusion, while closely related, lemmas and lexemes are not the same thing. A lemma is a specific form chosen to represent a lexeme, which is a more abstract concept encompassing all related word forms.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,763
    edited March 13

    no clue as to where this post came from

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    I am not experiencing this problem. I just tried this 10 times and it opened 10 new floating windows. Perhaps your windows are popping up one on top of the other? They should all be there, perhaps just covered.

    Ok, great! I just tried it again, and you are correct that it is opening in new windows! (I am not sure why it wasn't before, but that was before the spinning wheel and I had to force quit, so maybe it was just acting odd. I am grateful it creates new windows. :)

    Logos just released (today) a new update, v40.2. Hopefully once this update has installed correctly on your machine, certain performance issues will be resolved.

    I just checked the info, and I am apparently up to date now.

    Below are the options I am referring to. Each of the options under Corresponding words should result in a different color highlight. Unfortunately, these colors cannot be personalized.

    Thank you for the screenshot. I just searched the lemma and it is yellow, then the root and is also yellow, and the surface text is also yellow. Any ideas why?

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 13

    I just searched the lemma and it is yellow, then the root and is also yellow, and the surface text is also yellow. Any ideas why?

    I am attaching a gif to explain myself here. I understand that your toolbar will look different, but the same options should be present for you under the visual filters button as indicated in the screenshot I sent above.

    2025-03-12_21-06-46.gif
  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    I am attaching a gif to explain myself here. 

    Hi @Aaron Hamilton,

    Thank you for your gif. What is interesting is that the ESV and Greek are both there and it is working. If I have the ESV and Greek open, EVERYTHING is yellow. If I open only the Greek, Logos adds the Greek as a parallel, then the color coding works between those two copies. However, if I change the parallel to the ESV, it moves the ESV from the right to the left and then it is all back to yellow.

    On a side note, I often accidentally click "open or close sidebar" which brings up this "Translate" thing when I mean to be clicking the "multiple books display" since the two look so similar. Is there a way to get that "Translate" thing off of the toolbar? I literally never use it apart from accidentally clicking it.

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472

     Is there a way to get that "Translate" thing off of the toolbar?

    Unfortunately not.

  • Anon
    Anon Member Posts: 516 ✭✭
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1362295#Comment_1362295

    M.J.,

    it was for the reasons presented in your post that Accordance long ago changed what was once designated as "lemma" search to "lexeme" for their software.

    Lexeme: An abstract unit of lexical meaning that encompasses all the inflected forms of a word.

    in Logos a default "lemma" search (g:logos—or right-click lemma) is a "lexeme" search as it returns, as stated above, all forms of that search term.

    to search for the dictionary form λόγος (lemma) in Logos it is necessary to type that form into the search box.

    below on the left is a lemma search by typing in λόγος; while, on the right is the Logos default lemma search (right-click menu lemma—or by typing g:logos) which returns all inflected forms from the dictionary form λόγος.

    Screenshot 2025-03-12 at 8.06.05 PM.png

    so, when one executes a "lexeme" search in Accordance on the word λόγος the search results are identical to the Logos default "lemma" search on the right-hand side above—all forms of the dictionary form are returned.

    searching the "lemma" (which I think everyone knows at this point, but just to clarify, is called a "lexeme" in Accordance). 

    in summary then, Kristin is correct in how Logos and Accordance are utilizing the terms lemma and lexeme; and, it would seem that Perplexity clearly would define the Logos default "lemma" search as being instead a "lexeme" search.

    hopefully, this will clarify the issue of terminology involving the two softwares.

     

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 13

    Anon, this is a very nuanced discussion that likely deserves its own thread. But I can't agree with your conclusion. Perplexity also said, "A lemma is a specific form chosen to represent a lexeme, which is a more abstract concept encompassing all related word forms." As I understand it, both Logos and Accordance perform searches based on the lemma as described by this statement.

    Therefore, I do not think that calling the Logos search a lexeme search would be more accurate, as both Logos and Accordance are searching the lemma. Accordance simply terms the results a lexeme although it does not search the lexeme directly.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    in summary then, Kristin is correct in how Logos and Accordance are utilizing the terms lemma and lexeme

     Accordance simply terms the results a lexeme

    @Anon and @Aaron Hamilton, thank you both. My goal in my first post above expressing Accordance uses the term "lexeme" was of course just to provide clarity of the terminology of both programs for anyone not familiar with Accordance.

    By the way, as stated above, I think most people know by now that Accordance uses the term "lexeme" for Logos' "lemma" but what I am not sure of is how to find the inflected form. In Accordance I would have the choice of "lexeme" vs "inflected form" but if in Logos an Accordance lexeme is called a lemma, what is an inflected form called and how do I search for it?

    Also, with how all the cross-highlights are yellow instead of different colors, it works with the Greek next to the Greek (which is a pointless parallel), but if the ESV is on the left, and the Greek is on the right, it is all yellow. I am under the impression that for the two of you it does not just indicate yellow for everything, or is that how it is for the two of you if the ESV is open on the left? If you have different colors, does anyone have an idea what I am doing wrong? Or should I start another thread about that specific issue?

    Thank you both again.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 33,126

    Or should I start another thread about that specific issue?

    I would do that - it helps keep conversations much more focused.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13

    Citing 'Perplexity' and arguing from his exact language, is just what people thought would happen! Perplexity is reading someone(s) else's thought/assignments, for goodness sakes. Smiling. Now, I suppose 'someone else' is doing the same (with what's regarded as human intelligence and education from more someone else's). So maybe Perplexity is indeed a quotable guy (or gal) that can join humanity's arguments.

    Come on in, Perplexity! What do you think? (I am laughing)

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1362364#Comment_1362364

    Definitions are not particularly difficult to verify. Would you like to propose an alternate definition of lemma or lexeme?

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭
    https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1362371#Comment_1362371

    I'll ask Perplexity if he stands by his thinking. Smiling.

    I'd assume definitions are a point in time … usage.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472
    edited March 13

     In Accordance I would have the choice of "lexeme" vs "inflected form" but if in Logos an Accordance lexeme is called a lemma, what is an inflected form called and how do I search for it?

    @Kristin does the below screenshot indicate what you're looking for? I'll keep an eye out for your next thread in regard to your remaining question(s).

    Untitled.png
  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    @Kristin does the below screenshot indicate what you're looking for?

    Hi @Aaron Hamilton,

    Thank you for the screenshot, and yes, that seems to have worked. I had previously tried this little @ looking symbol which is for sure not it and I am still not sure what it is. I will post a screenshot of what I am referring to.

    Also, when I search the "Bible" it brings it up to the right, and it adds two Hebrew resources. :/ I know I can change them, but then the next time I am looking something up in Hebrew those resources will be gone. In Accordance there is a way to make it match, so that if I search something in Hebrew the parallels will automatically be what I want for a Hebrew text, and then when I search in Greek the parallels automatically change to match what I want for Greek parallels. Is there a way to do that in Logos?

    Bildschirmfoto 2025-03-13 um 11.20.11.png

    I'll keep an eye out for your next thread in regard to your remaining question(s).

    Thank you. :)

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472

    when I search the "Bible" it brings it up to the right, and it adds two Hebrew resources. :/ I know I can change them, but then the next time I am looking something up in Hebrew those resources will be gone. In Accordance there is a way to make it match, so that if I search something in Hebrew the parallels will automatically be what I want for a Hebrew text, and then when I search in Greek the parallels automatically change to match what I want for Greek parallels. Is there a way to do that in Logos?

    I believe the search tool simply remembers the most recent list of Bibles displayed. It cannot be customized to show different lists of Bibles based on which resource the search originated in. If this is your goal, I would recommend performing Inline searches with your preferred method of Shift+left-click while in multiple book view. In this case, the parallel books that are searched can be customized based on whichever book is functioning as the main book at the time of the search, and they will be remembered.

     I had previously tried this little @ looking symbol which is for sure not it and I am still not sure what it is.

    Clicking this on the left side of the context menu will yield further information on the right side. It indicates morphological data.

    Untitled.png
  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    I believe the search tool simply remembers the most recent list of Bibles displayed. It cannot be customized to show different lists of Bibles based on which resource the search originated in. If this is your goal, I would recommend performing Inline searches with your preferred method of Shift+left-click while in multiple book view. In this case, the parallel books that are searched can be customized based on whichever book is functioning as the main book at the time of the search, and they will be remembered.

    Hi @Aaron Hamilton,

    Ok, thanks for clarifying this and for this tip of Inline.

    Clicking this on the left side of the context menu will yield further information on the right side. It indicates morphological data.

    Ok, I think I understand. Regardless if I click on the inflected, lemma, or this @ symbol, I see that parsing. However, if I click to search VAMI3S it seems to actually be bringing up all random verbs which fit this criteria.

  • Aaron Hamilton
    Aaron Hamilton Member, MVP Posts: 1,472

    Ok, I think I understand. Regardless if I click on the inflected, lemma, or this @ symbol, I see that parsing. However, if I click to search VAMI3S it seems to actually be bringing up all random verbs which fit this criteria.

    Right, or if you would like to search more precisely, you can limit the search to the same lemma:

    Untitled.png
  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 436 ✭✭

    Right, or if you would like to search more precisely, you can limit the search to the same lemma:

    Thank you, @Aaron Hamilton. :) Ya, that makes far more sense for my typical needs. :)

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