Give me back my Wordsearch, or better yet the original Bible Explorer
I have a simple philosophy about computers and software, if it helps me do what I do more efficiently then it is good, if I have to change to fit the software then it has become my master and that makes it bad. Bible Explorer and Wordsearch allowed me to quickly find and organize my desktop so that I could quickly navigate just like a physical desk.
I want all of my books listed by title as a menu on the left, no fancy icons, no details. I just want commentaries in a folder listed as commentaries, when I open it I want to see the same thing as if it was a hard copy on my bookshelf, the same for Bibles, word study resources, etc. I want panes for Bibles, commentaries, word studies, and other panes as necessary, I want to be able to minimize them into tabs, or make them free floating as I choose. I am tired of having one pane suddenly morph into another pane creating some large single pane. I want actual words for my books, not little icons. I want a KJV with Strong's numbers that I can then use to link to my word study window with my Vine's Thayer's or other books linked to the Strong's numbers automatically. These are all things I lost when I had to switch to Logos because they would no longer support Wordsearch. I am wasting what limited time I have trying to get this program to do what I need instead of studying to prepare my lessons. Yes, this is a rant, but I am frustrated beyond belief.
Comments
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Forgive me in advance for any ignorance or lack of familiarity with your background. I don't own Bible Explorer nor have I had any experience with Wordsearch. I am therefore not the best person to respond to your frustration. Do you have a working knowledge of Layouts? If so this may be your best friend in Logos.
@xnman or someone like him may be able to point you in the right direction if I have not given you any insight.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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I'm familiar with layouts, the problem is that I have found trying to navigate and get the program to do what I want is complicated, slow and clumsy. I get it, Adobe suite is a great program, but it takes forever to learn, for my podcast Audacity is free, simple and does the job for a start up podcast ministry. Adobe Audition is great if you are a sound engineer doing high level professional work. If you are a bi-vocational minister, whether pastor, or para-church ministry you need simple and inexpensive. That is my frustration with Logos.
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I agree with your sentiments. I just think that train left the easy-to-use station many years ago. I'd really hate to be new to Logos.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Unfortunately, Wordsearch's model was not sustainable, which is why they went out of business. Logos is not going to bring back a failed product that they bought for the user and book base. I know you're frustrated, but the forum is mostly a place for users to help each other, and so there is not much we can do anyway. But we can help you get Logos to work better for your needs.
I think I can help you get set up with something that will be much closer to what you are used to, but I think that your desires are unique enough that there is not much purpose in recording a video or annotating a bunch of screen shots. If you would be willing to set up a Zoom call, I can take remote control of your computer, set up a Wordsearch-like layout, and walk you through what is happening. Send me an email if you're interested: justin@alvinmbc.com.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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@Matthew Neale Hello. I may not understand fully, but will try to answer your question and hopefully help with your frustration. I came from WordSearch, love it, found it to be simple, straightforward and practical. It took some adjustment for me to get into Logos… but as things change so must we.
Logos is more powerful than WordSearch in that Logos has kept evolving whereas WordSearch didn't. And it does take some time to get into the full swing of Logos just because of the difference in thinking and the way the program menus are. And that demands the way you use the bible program changes also. I know, change is not easy. But I suggest taking a time period each day or week and watch the free videos offered in the "Training & Articles" or the "Events" menu items at the top of this page. They will definitely help. Also, Logos has been offering thru email, free webinars on Logos software, I suggest signing up for those when you can.
Now about Bible Explorer from WordSearch. First, I did not use "Bible Explorer" that much in WordSearch. Sorry. But right off, I don't remember what happened to it but I think it got renamed to either "Explorer" or one of the other "Bible xxxxx" found in "Tools". Look in "Tools" and type "Bible" in the Search bar and you'll see about 4 "Bible xxxxx" there. Also, in "Tools" you will find "Explorer". I suggest you poke around in them and see if they come close to what you're looking for.
And as has been suggested, poke around with Layouts in Logos. They are very flexible and I find I can setup things how I want them and "save that layout" to a name which I can use later. Look in "U_Tube" and type in "Logos Layouts" in the search and you will find several suggestions on how to use layouts. I do use layouts, I have 4 different ones that I use, depending on what I am researching or looking to do.
Sorry I wasn't more help.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I agree with DMB. Logos is not easy to use, and over the years it's only gotten more complex and confusing. I will not recommend Logos to anyone who isn't either a seminary student or full-time minister. If I didn't already have Logos, and were looking to buy a Bible study package for myself for the first time, I would not choose Logos.
I know FaithLife keeps trying to make it simpler - and I appreciate the effort. But they do it by bolting on even more bells and whistles, and over time it ends up further complicating an already confusing program.
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When I was young, I remember disking, plowing, planting and such with a 53 Ford tractor. Basically, 4 rows at a time. Loved that tractor. It was simple, easy to operate and for small acreage, it was a good fit. But that's all that was had and that's what we used. For the acreage, it was too small and cost us lots of time driving that tractor to get things done. And I remember loooong hours spent in the field driving that tractor.
But today with the large acreage of most farms, that tractor would not fit well. The big tractors now are complicated, with GPS, drive themselves, all kinds of electronics, etc. And for someone like me to jump into one of the big tractors… wellll… I would bet there would be a learning curve, that if I wanted to operate the big tractor and get lots done rather quickly, I would have to learn.
My first bible program didn't do much. A simple search was about all the features it had. And that search was mainly to search the bible with only. But now with Logos, I can do so much more in a relative quick amount of time. Sure, it takes time to learn "the big program", but the choice is to stay back in time and take mucho more amount of time to do the same job (small Ford tractor mentality) or learn Logos and do more faster (big tractor mentality). Things change. We either change with it or we quit advancing and live in the past.
I spent time and still do, learning what I know of Logos. I believe the payback is worth it. You don't have to, and can't, do it all in one setting. Do a little bit each day or each week. Pretty soon, you'll be amazed at what you can do when it comes to studying and understanding God's word.
That's my 2 cents, which with about $3.00 or so, you can buy a cup of coffee in some places. 😎
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I still think that Logos would do well coming up with a "Logos Lite" version, both desktop and mobile app. No bells and whistles. Mostly just for reading/highlighting, maybe simple notes and basic searches.
That might be useful to those who struggle with all the extras, especially if they aren't really interested in them. It might also be helpful to those who have older computers or phones and do not have the means to upgrade.
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@Matthew Neale
April 13I want all of my books listed by title as a menu on the left, no fancy icons, no details.My library preference is Details View to show title list.
@Matthew Neale
April 13I want panes for Bibles, commentaries, word studies, and other panes as necessary, I want to be able to minimize them into tabs, or make them free floating as I choose.Thankful for Logos Bible Software change that allows more than one Library tab to be open:
Library filtering allows "shelves" to be left out of list: e.g. Type:Bibles includes Manuscripts, Dead Sea Scrolls, and Targums.
Keep Smiling 😊
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I appreciate what you're trying to say, @xnman, but I don't believe your analogy addresses my core point. Different people have different needs, and the needs of the average member of the congregation I attend are not the same as those of a seminary professor or full-time minister.
Or, to put it slightly differently, I have no doubt that your big tractor is a true mechanical marvel, and a great leap forward for the modern professional farmer. But there's not enough room in my little suburban yard to park the thing, let alone turn it around. My little Toro push-mower with a 150 cc Briggs and Stratton motor is a much better fit for me. It's much easier to use, does the particular job I need to do much more conveniently - and is much more affordable. Telling me that the tractor comes with GPS so you'll never get lost out in the fields, or that it's totally worth it once you get past the learning curve, is never going to convince me (or any of my suburban neighbors) to trade in my mower for a top-of-the line, full-size farm tractor.. I doubt you'd even try, because the mismatch with my needs is so glaringly obvious.
I've tried to pitch Logos to my spouse several times, and whether you believe it or not, the mismatch is just as glaring. Logos was just too durn much. (Olive Tree turned out to be a good fit.)
Other analogies are easy to find. A point-and-shoot camera may be a better fit for a new parent who wants to take snapshots of their child than a professional DSLR with all the buttons and dials. I'd rather use a Honda for my daily commute than a Maserati. Sometimes a home repair is better accomplished with a handheld circular saw than a professional cabinet saw. Not everyone needs a full-size Ford F-350 in their driveway. Which tool is best depends on your needs. And I would suggest that many faithful Christians who study the Bible regularly have no need for anything nearly as complex and feature-laden as Logos.
One closing thought. The learning curve is a real issue. I first bought Logos years and years ago when basic packages were still being sold in Christian bookstores. I got it on sale, tried it for a few months, and gave up on it because it was more trouble than it was worth to me at the time. I know that people can buy Logos, give it a serious try, and make a conscious decision to walk away - because I did it myself. It was years later before I gave it another look. I don't recall what made me decide to do that, but it was touch-and-go as to whether I would grit it out through the learning curve. And it was a lot simpler back then (circa 2010) than it is now.
I truly believe that FaithLife will never reach a broad audience of lay Christians until they find a fundamentally different and far more effective way to address the ease of use challenge.
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I still think that Logos would do well coming up with a "Logos Lite" version, both desktop and mobile app. No bells and whistles. Mostly just for reading/highlighting, maybe simple notes and basic searches
Have you looked at the Faithlife ebooks app for mobile?
It does a bit more than you mention but doesn’t have all the features of the main mobile apps.
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The concept of a lite version is something Adobe has learned. When I worked as a professional photographer I loved all the tools available in Photoshop and Lightroom. The learning curve and workarounds were part of the profession. But for the amateur who pursues photography as a hobby, or the aspiring professional who has a day job, there aren't enough hours in the day to learn complicated programs and still do the work. Adobe learned that there was a large market for these people. In fact Lightroom has presets that you click and most of the editing is done. The analogy of a camera is also valid. For most people a simple point and shoot will be easier to use and give better results than even a cell phone. Serious amateurs and professionals use DSLRs because of the control they have over their images.
If you love playing around with Logos and you have the time to do so, great. To me programs like Logos are simply a repository of books, I just want it to function like a physical library and desk. I want my computer screen to look like a physical desk with my Bibles and books spread out before me, then I want to switch from one book to another. I still make my notes in a physical notebook.
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Actually I have Logos on my phone and combined with my notebook has allowed me to get a lot done while I am out and about. I like the phone app, it's the desktop program I find so frustrating
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Yes, and unfortunately my tablet was about 2 months too old for it to work. My friend got the same tablet, only 2 months after mine (after seeing how mine worked) but his had a slightly newer version of the OS, then this past December Logos upgraded the app for all the subscription stuff, and my tablet's OS was just outside the cut off. Neither app will work.
I do have the Logos app on my phone. I use it for the Bible occasionally, but it's too small of a screen for me to enjoy reading on. That's what the tablet was for - so that it was something about the size of a book. I didn't need any extras on it - I just wanted to read and highlight now and then. :-( I got about a year out of it before the subscription stuff made it "too old".
I'd be happy with just a glorified e-reader to read my books on.
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I truly believe that FaithLife will never reach a broad audience of lay Christians until they find a fundamentally different and far more effective way to address the ease of use challenge.
I really believed in Bob's expressed goal of ease of access to people who never had easy access. I truly did. I remember our Bible college library and its mysteries as I tried to do assigned papers. I was so naive.
Now, I just love opening Logos and that college library (almost!) at my fingertips. Zooming among Qumran and Coptic sources. Akkadian! I'm still amazed 20 years later.
But I watch Kristin ask obvious questions … that for me were answered over that 20 year period. Or other new folks as well. I gave up on my vision of Logos (the app) for the church. FL moved on from ease of use.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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You make a lot of good points here.
I used to recommend Logos to anyone I could. And I still would. But realistically, anymore, it's not really for the average lay person. I used to say, for the average person sitting in the pew, you could go and spend $50 or even $100 on The Fundamentals and then a starter package or two and have more than enough to fulfill the needs of the average believer. A couple months ago I set two guys from church up with Logos - helped them get all the freebies, and I did tell them about the subscription but honestly, they'd have little need for it. They've got a Bible and the FSB, and for them that probably meets their needs for the time being.
And the ease of use is still something that needs a lot of work. I've never understood the logic of making people pay for training videos (I can understand 1:1). I would have thought they would want to make that free, because the more people know how to use it and all the cool things they can do, the more likely they'll become more invested in it.
The bigmarker videos have been very very basic and simplified. Most of them seem to be clearly just a sales pitch, and cover a few simple things that probably could have taken all of 5 minutes but took 45 minutes to do so.
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One challenge with this debate is that most of my friends want a free or very low cost, easy to use digital study Bible. This is not Logos.
There are two dynamics with Logos. First, it is a Swiss Army knife of tools. This makes it extremely powerful to be used in a broad range of use cases, including very specialized studies.
Second, it has a huge resource base. The data sets are extensive. There is no other platform to compare it to.
So to get the most out of this, you need to learn the tool. You also need to know the resources and data sets that the software interacts with.
I learn something about this platform all the time as a result. My workflows are not the same as they were a year ago, because I am tasking the platform with new things as I learn and grow.
I am not sure the answer to this, except to say that for me, with time it only gets better and better.
This is not to say it will work for everyone and whilst the software can do basic things easily (I.e. run a passage guide), it requires a lot of investment that does pay off handsomely for some use cases.0 -
One challenge with this debate is that most of my friends want a free or very low cost, easy to use digital study Bible. This is not Logos.
But it could be, without taking anything away from what power users currently enjoy. FaithLife could eat Olive Tree's lunch if they offered a lite version with a streamlined interface that was carefully designed to meet the needs of the average faithful churchgoer in the pew. If they did that, I would recommend it all day long.
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With the new subscriptions and included resources, the barrier to entry feels lower to me to get folks introduced (although they should include NKJV by default along with the other translations). However, I feel like I have to personally sit down with them, demonstrate the value, and hold their hand to get them productive.
The next step Logos needs to take is significant investment in the onboarding experience. Some features (like resource prioritization) have been largely ignored from a usability perspective because they view them as one and done, but resource prioritization is a critical aspect of making the tooling behave better and present useful / interesting data.
I don't believe that the power available in Logos prevents them from being able to provide an easy entry into Logos. There are plenty of very straightforward features that users can get immediate value out of, but it requires real investment in onboarding and guided interactions. Right now, you just get dumped in with a little dashboard box that lets you pick a preferred Bible (as long as it's one they've included - otherwise, you're left to fend for yourself).
I, too, was shocked they were charging for training. One of my friends is a pastor who rarely uses Logos. I asked him why, and he said it was too hard to figure out. Maybe he's an anomaly, but I doubt it.
I got excited when they started talking about Logos for Churches, and I was hoping to find out that a user friendly introduction into the Logos ecosystem was going to be the broad outcome. I was pretty disappointed to find out it was just about package deals for leaders and no focused improvements around adoption. It's great that those package deals are available, but I have to convince folks to even use the software and show them it's not as difficult as they think it is right now (and some parts of the software honestly are as difficult as they think it is… but shouldn't be).
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So to get the most out of this, you need to learn the tool. You also need to know the resources and data sets that the software interacts with
Well, I don't know the datasets and don't know the tools. Have no need to find all the giraffes in the Bible, nor the intersection of Abraham and lieing. And I love my Logos.
But I'd hate to be new. I wonder about all those 'church leaders' … some (most?) know their Bibles already. Learn a complicated app?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thankful for Logos Bible Software change that allows more than one Library tab to be open:I remember back when the Library tab was just a menu, and it only stayed open while you had your mouse over it - as soon as you clicked on a book, it was gone. It was difficult to just "browse". We've got it like 1000000000x better now :-)
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I don't believe that the power available in Logos prevents them from being able to provide an easy entry into Logos.
I do. There's a reason that designers spend so much time trying to streamline and simplify the user interface for products. Complexity that's exposed to the user comes with a cost in both confusion and intimidation. Logos is rife with this. If you right-click on something, you have an intimidatingly complex context menu pop up. Your options are different if - within that memo - you choose "Lemma" rather than "Selection." What if you don't know what a lemma is, but have accidently selected it? Then you don't see the options you're accustomed to, and don't know how to do the thing that worked so well for you last week. What's a "guide" and what's a "tool" - and why are they in different places? (And why are all the coolest "tools" at the bottom of the tool menu?)
It's never going to be easy to use until FaithLife finds a way to truly hide all of the complexity. Logos is a Fortran compiler. Some of use just need a calculator app.
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Please understand - I'm not trying to pound on FaithLife. If I didn't care, and didn't want them to succeed, I wouldn't keep harping the the usability problem.
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I think you misunderstood me because I've been harping the same thing in a number of threads. I'm not saying it's an easy entry right now. I'm saying there's nothing implicit about the power of what you can potentially do in Logos that would prevent someone from coming in and addressing the usability issues. Logos just needs to have the appetite to do so.
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The bigmarker videos have been very very basic and simplified. Most of them seem to be clearly just a sales pitch, and cover a few simple things that probably could have taken all of 5 minutes but took 45 minutes to do so.
The problem Logos has is that the breadth of users include those requiring 5 minutes or less as well as those who require 45 minutes or more. I learned that lesson the hard way when I chose qal va-chomer as an example of new terminology for common thought. Using the example of minimum ages for movies, I was unable to get one participant to understand. What confuses me is that people who are comfortable with the very complex Word complain about the impossibly (less) complex Logos. I've puzzled for decades over how Logos could be more Word-like in the users acceptance of complexity that they've never learned because they never use.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@Matthew Neale I used to use WordSearch since Wordsearch 10 until Wordsearch 12 and I loved it. I had Logos on my computer and never used it because WordSearch was perfect for me. I still have WordSearch 12 on my laptop that I refer to every once and a while to see the books I was using and how I had my layout there. Finally on day in August of 2023 I decided to check out Logos Bible Software as my primary Bible study software and I loved it more than WordSearch because of how powerful it is and the many tools it has at our disposal. One thing I didn't like was my lack of knowledge about the software. I looked through my old email and found that Morris Proctor of MP Seminars did a webinar for WordSearch users. I looked at it and he made it so easy were we can still have the feel we had with WordSearch and it made me love Logos so much more. Here is the link for you my brother: MP Seminars WordSearch Webinars. I hope these help you to like or even love Logos Bible Software even more. Oh by the way the webinars are free. You do not need a subscription to MP Seminars to view them.
God Bless you
Fred Holmes
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But I'd hate to be new. I wonder about all those 'church leaders' … some (most?) know their Bibles already. Learn a complicated app?
For those that I know who don’t find Logos approachable, I refer them to Olive Tree, E-sword, You Version or Blue Letter Bible. (Believe it or not, I used to recommend Accordance because it could be a bit of a challenge to learn, but the resources were so tightly stitched together - timeline, Atlas, photo guide, etc, that even English only readers could get a lot of return on effort)
Alas, one of the things we all face is that the market has seen a lot of products leave the market - PC Study Bible, WordSearch, QuickVerse, Bible Works… we have a few less options in the premium studies space. 😕
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Sorry, I did misunderstand you. I completely agree with that.
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What confuses me is that people who are comfortable with the very complex Word complain about the impossibly (less) complex Logos. I've puzzled for decades over how Logos could be more Word-like in the users acceptance of complexity that they've never learned because they never use.
I don't love Microsoft Word, even though I have used it every day for longer than I would care to admit.
But having said that, I believe part of the answer to your question is that Word does a much better job of hiding the complexity from the user. Even though I hate the way they keep changing it up, Microsoft really does sweat the user interface. Microsoft also does a better job of hiding the program's underpinnings from the user. Specifically, there aren't artificial distinctions between features based on the way they're implemented or sold, like the distinction Logos makes between a "tool" and a "guide."
"Easy to use" is a feature - and I daresay it's more important to the average user than the next generative AI-based thing Faithlife has in the works. I know it's the only feature that will ever convince my spouse to use Logos, and it's likely the only feature that will gain the program widespread adoption among most typical churchgoers.
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Ok… ease of use? I mean this in a kind way … But….
Let me explain… Logos has a bible…. has a search… that's what my first bible program had (small tractor mentality). Why not just use just those two features and call it "ease of use"??? I don't understand all the complaining anymore. I came from WordSearch…. and had a problem learning Logos (I was overwhelmed then and didn't understand I could just use some features) and I complained…. until …. I realized if I wanted more out of Logos then I needed to learn more. No one was gonna learn for me! I finally figured that out!!
Then I slowed down my complaining and and started learning…. I learned I was blaming Logos for what I didn't want to do…. Learn!
Logos is as easy or as hard as you want to make it. Really! It is your choice. Don't get overwhelmed with all the features and then say it's not easy to use. No fair. Use the features that are easy for you to use. It can be that simple.
Open Logos to a blank screen…. open Search. That is about as easy as any bible program will ever get. Want more? Learn. And remember, that is what you have to do with any program that you want more out of. Use videos, use U-Tube, ask questions…. but like anything in life…. no learning…. no progressing forward.
And if you just want a lawn mower, then just use the lawn mower features… if you want a medium tractor, then learn a little bit more. If you want to run with the big dogs…. then spend a few minutes every day and learn and pretty soon you'll probably be teaching the big dogs where they are wrong! (very interesting idea don'tcha think? LOL)
Just saying…… (Now… I'm gonna hide under the bed for all the fallout that I think is coming…. LOL) 😎
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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From a user that wants to derive value from Logos, you're not wrong. You can get out of it what you're willing to invest the time in to learn - however painful that might be.
However, from a business standpoint, there are two knobs Logos can tweak to increase the size of their user base: adoption and retention. Adoption is about getting users to know about your product and its features. Retention is about keeping the users around. There are plenty of articles that probably talk about this, but this one seemed to cover the concept reasonably well: https://funnelstory.ai/blog/how-product-adoption-drives-retention.
I think you see some early attempts by Logos to tweak these knobs in the cards showing up on the dashboard (i.e. What would you like to do today? What's your top bible? etc). However, the nature of Logos is really begging for more interactive onboarding and feature exploration, but it seems to heavily leverage documentation and some quick videos, instead, and they need to get beyond "hey we can do that" to a place where the user feels comfortable in actually being able to do that.
I was hoping that perhaps if I clicked on the "Personal study" section in the "What would you like to do today?" that I'd find an experience that was introductory in nature, and it's attempting that in some fashion. It has a basic layout and a help section on the right, but everything else is still all up in your face. All the bars, all the Factbook tags, there's no effort by the software to trim itself down and slowly introduce users to the complexities that it can support and why they might want them. When it does take pains to attempt to introduce something, it involves either a lot of reading or a video outside the constraints of the app itself rather than an interactive the user could experience.
Right now, even some of the basics you're saying are easy aren't as easy as you've positioned them because it lacks a comprehensive treatment of what I'd consider a minimally viable product when it comes to bible study software. Basic reading of the text and the ability to search are not enough because someone can do that online without all of this. If I was to define an MVP for bible study software, I'd say you must be able to read the text, search the text, highlight the text, make notes about the text, and search your notes about the text. Reading and searching the text seem relatively straightforward (I'm assuming without any user testing). Notes and highlights, though? I see confusion about those all the time on this board. Basic bible study has to be easy in Logos and demonstrate enough value that users are able to see a reason to continue using just that. Additional features should come in that continue to pull them deeper into what is available, how they can leverage it, and additional resources they might want to acquire to support it.
I have a vested interest in Logos succeeding and building an extensive customer base because it ensures a long-term platform I can leverage in my own studies and a broader audience which opens up new opportunities for them to leverage for additional resources, further investments in the platform, etc. I'm a software engineer by trade (when I'm not wearing my leadership hat), so I find it relatively easy to dig in and figure out how to do things with minimal handholding. I don't expect others without my background to have that same ease, and I'm advocating for an improved experience so that I can get everyone I know to use Logos.
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I've started watching these videos and in the first three minutes of the first video it has already made Logos 100% more useful. I have to adjust some of how I do things but I can live with it. I'm probably going to have to be a bit neater in how I use the books, I tend to be as messy on the computer screen as I am when using physical books. Thank-you for the help.
I'm only part way through the first video, but I think these videos should be bookmarked, linked or something for everyone, even those who have never used Wordsearch. If you know how to use software, but Logos leaves you lost this video takes you step by step as a how-to. It's not about impressing you with how great the program is, it's about how to get up and running quickly. I have tried to watch the official Logos videos and they just left me as lost as before.
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@Matthew Neale I’m happy to help anytime man. Keep watching them. Once you finish watching them I hope you have that WordSearch feel again and you’ll be so happy you’ll praise the Lord with Hallelujahs and Thank You Jesus!!
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Ok… ease of use? I mean this in a kind way … But….
@xnman, I'm glad it clicks for you that way. It doesn't for everyone. Trust me - I've seen it. I've introduced Logos to someone on a couple of different occasions, installing it on their computer for them and demoing it exactly the way you describe, only to have them drop it immediately. Understand, I tried this more than once with them, and they knew that I use Logos on an almost daily basis. Then the same person came back to me later all excited because they'd found Olive Tree, showing it to me and describing how it was exactly what they needed.
Olive Tree wasn't more powerful, it didn't have more resources, and it certainly didn't have more features - but it was easier to use. That was a make-or-break issue for them.
I get where you're coming from, but Olive Tree was objectively better for them, because of ease of use. They tried both, and picked the simpler, easier to use program because it better fit their needs.
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Justin,
It’s fantastic that you are offering to help, but you should be aware that in the past providing a full email address without disguising it in some way made it easy for the spam bots to get a hold of your email address. You may want to consider changing it up a bit to avoid detection.
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I thought about that and initially wrote it a different way, but then I decided that in the world of LLMs any disguise which a human will be able to decipher, a bot will also be able to decipher.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I appreciate the offer, but Fred Holmes had the exact same problem and sent me to videos that made Logos useful to me within minutes. As I continue watching it is helping even more. Is there not a way to private message to keep things private and reduce the likely hood of spam? I know other forums I belong to use it all the time.
For my use placing my books in the menu bar solved a huge problem. Now I just open them as I need them and can close it, or just open another as needed. It also teaches how to do word studies quickly and easily. Layouts may look like Wordsearch, but they don't really work the same way. That is the confusing part. Just like a physical desk I can have things side by side, or lay on top of everything.
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Years back, I have a friend that one time wanted to ride a horse. So I saddled up a gentle mare with a bit of age on her and told my friend it would be good for him. Through a lot of anguish, frustration and complaining, he rode for about 30 minutes and got off the horse and walked back to the barn. It wasn't the horses fault. The horse did nothing wrong. That friend of mine just didn't like to ride horses.
Conclusion: Not everyone understands or wants to understand some programs. That's just a fact! Tell those you demoed Logos too and they don't like it… to go use Olive Tree or whatever. No harm done. But what I said about making Logos as hard or as easy as you like, is a fact! My friend didn't like horses, that didn't make inside horses bad, but for him, he could or would not do it.
And I'll venture to say…. (without having used Olive Tree) that the Search in Logos is much more powerful than the Search in Olive Tree. And the Search in Logos is very easy to use. So is finding verses both on the desktop and on the mobile app. But like my friend, some people just don't want to change. And as far as easy to use, I don't understand how using a bible and Search in Logos could be any easier?? I don't see it. Click on "ALL" in Search and generally find what you want … and fast. Click on "Bible" in Search and find anything in the bible. Take 2 minutes to understand the menu of Search and then you're on your way. It really is that easy.
Take someone that has never used Olive Tree or any other bible program… I would bet (if I was a betting man) that they'd have to take a few minutes to learn how it works also. Don'tcha think?
I understand that some people just don't like Logos. And the rest of us just have to put up with their complaints. And I believe I am right in saying… no one that uses Logos is making anyone else use Logos. Just saying….😎
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I suspect we're just going to disagree.
That friend of mine just didn't like to ride horses.
That's a red herring. Everyone we're talking about likes the study the Bible, and the person I'm talking about does it every single day.
Take someone that has never used Olive Tree or any other bible program… I would bet (if I was a betting man) that they'd have to take a few minutes to learn how it works also. Don'tcha think?
And that's a red herring too. The person I'm talking about is not technically savvy, and was able to teach herself how to use Olive Tree in a few minutes. So yes, there's a learning curve - but not enough of one to create a meaningful barrier for even a casual, non-technically adept user. If you can say the same thing about Logos with a straight face, you haven't been paying attention to the questions and feedback in the forums.
I'm glad you find Logos' user interface friendly and intuitive. That's not how most new users experience it.
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@xnman your horse story was … well, like what cattle do after munching. There's gentle horses; there's spirited horses. You don't hand a spirited horse to a new rider and then say, well it's the rider. Of course it's the rider … that's the point.
Logos is a spirited horse … powerful but wayward. Needs a bit more training.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Comparing plows and horses to a software program doesn't really fit. That tractor is still useful, in fact a garden tiller is great for a small garden. Use the right tool for the job. Someone said Logos is a Swiss Army Knife, I would compare it to a fully equipped shop. Let's say a woodshop. I find a really nice desk at a garage sale but it needs refinishing. Just some sanding and staining. If the craftsman who owns the shop shows me where the tools are and gives me some guidance I can do the job. I just need a hand sander, stain, and brushes. I don't need that really nice table saw, drill press, etc. The shop owner has all that stuff because he uses it. He wouldn't let me near the chop saw without training and supervision.
It is never a winning proposition to blame the customer/end user even if it is their fault. The key is to understand what the user needs the program to do and then show them ways to accomplish their goals. The Lord brought Fred Holmes into this thread and he pointed me to a video series that did just that. To me the desktop window is a digital desk and the library is just that, a library of books that I own. Imagine a desk with the books I need spread out in front of me. That is what I was looking for. Now I know how to what I need.
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It's been fun…. but comes a time when enough said. LOL Thanks for the discussion.😎
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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