Posture of Logos Bible Software

Is it just me or does it seem that Logos Bible Software in general is very much against Oneness Pentecostals? I feel that most of their resources, responses, even now with the use of AI it is always wanting to disprove what I believe. I purchased Logos because I thought it would just be factual and give me the resources but ever since I purchased it it seems they push their beliefs on you.

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Graham Criddle

Where are you seeing this pushing of beliefs? In which areas of the software?

It's something I've seen mentioned but never experienced or understood.

DMB

Excellent post. I don't know how representative, but the current answer to the problem, needs to caution the over-confident AI guy to deliver just what one wants. Like a good search, maybe.

Yasmin Stephen

I don't know how representative, but the current answer to the problem, needs to caution the over-confident AI guy to deliver just what one wants.

From my observations, these 'pushing of beliefs' claims seem to revolve around Study Assistant, and I'm expecting collections would help with that. We can stick all our favored resources (Oneness Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, what have you) into collections, query the SA, and get the type of answers we are okay with.

(Some good news for SA users: in the recent What's New webinar (aired last week), Mark Barnes indicated we might see a collection picker in version 49; see timestamp 00:33:16 and 00:34:16.)

Also, as a business, Logos's overall catalog cannot escape being shaped by what the majority of its customers want (or seem to want?).

John

@Yasmin Stephen … We can stick all our favored resources …

That should be how it works. But the AI does not seem to select the best resources in ones library at all. My perception is that the AI picks "safe" resources from the perspective of copyright issues. This would seem natural given the current war that has begun between those who create all types of copyrighted materials and the big tech companies that use their material without permission to train their AI models.

To the OP, Logos does allow you to prioritize resources and form collections, so you do have much control over your search results using the traditional methods. I do agree with you that the AI features are not giving you (or any of us) enough control over this, and I hope that they improve this in the future.

MJ. Smith

I doubt that there is anything specifically against Oneness Pentecostals however, there is a general bias towards Reformed/Evangelical. It shows up at low levels such as vocabulary, in design of features e.g. removing the sanctoral cycle and replacing it with a duplicate of daily devotional, its bias towards single passages rather than lectionary groupings of passages, its bias toward Word of God as text rather than music, art, literature and other forms of transmission … It becomes more obvious as AI features are produced as the underlying LLM is trained biased towards American Secular Religion based on input documents then further biased by the Logos catalogue. The net result is that the further you are from dead center in the Logos ecosystem, the more aware you are of the biases; the closer to center, the more you believe it is true and unbiased. For some, the Logos ecosystem permits them to concentrate on methods that make them feel they are studying hard without fear they might actually learn something to shake their current beliefs.

If you read the threads on AI in the forums, you'll likely see that many users define training AI to give correct answers is the same as training AI to confirm what they already believe. I am one of those strange people who believes that the vast majority of Bible study should be denominationally neutral - that we should look at what the text actually says rather than what we have been taught to believe it to say. However, this is easier as a Catholic as I have surety in what has been believed everywhere always by the members of the Church - living and dead which keeps me on track, a safeguard against mistaking the Devil for the Holy Spirit. [Apologies for the theological aside there but it is critical if you are to understand my response to the Logos bias.] My concern is that AI is statistically based. I assure you that Oneness Pentecostals are unapt to be statistically significant to AI. Therefore, it follows that AI will increase your perception that Logos is biased against Oneness Pentecostals. And I suspect that one could prove empirically that it is biased against most Christians.

I had hoped that private equity would bring in a broader perspective or at least a greater self-awareness. So far it has not. I am a bit disappointed but still comfortable with it. Why? I think of it a bit like walking into the two Libraries I knew well -

University of Washington (9 million volumes (books and journals), plus millions of microforms and other formats) - most is irrelevant, lots relevant to religious studies, religious history, influential documents … solid on the academic, little on the nitty-gritty; requires careful analysis of logic and basis of factual information.
Flora Lamson Hewlett Library GTU Berkeley (around 500–530k volumes) - almost entirely religious/Christan and biased by the theology of the schools and institutes that make up GTU knowing that students have access to the UC Berkeley library for other materials. … lots on the nitty-gritty down to the thinnest of theological distinctions, requires intense study of presuppositions to determine academic value.

So, unlike some, my question is not "is Logos biased" but rather "am I sufficiently aware of the Logos bias".

Michelle

Couldn't agree more on this common ground, @MJ. Smith

Bible study should be denominationally neutral - that we should look at what the text actually says rather than what we have been taught to believe it to say

MJ. Smith

@Yasmin Stephen

Also, as a business, Logos's overall catalog cannot escape being shaped by what the majority of its customers want (or seem to want?).

It also works the other way around - their catalog and features determine the customers most apt to purchase the software. Until they try to meet the needs of the mainstream and the liturgical churches, the peace churches, etc. those denominations will be underrepresented in their customer base. A simple example "All the Killings in the Bible" is very evangelical; "All the barren woman" or "All the women at the well" or even "All the displaced first-born" represent the broader church.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1389321#Comment_1389321

In the forums, it can take the form of outrage at the concept of "existing before Creation" which is Biblical … but you won't find it in the Biblical Event Navigator. In vocabulary, it can be subtle such as "birth of Jesus" rather than "incarnation" or "kenosis" or in Christian goal "salvation" vs. "theosis". Or as an Irish Catholic friend put it while chuckling at the exchange:

Protestant: Are you saved?

Catholic: (puzzled look on face and long pause): I guess so. I'm part of the family of God.

As I've heard with respect to the English - yes, we both speak English but we are divided by a common tongue.

DMB

I remain the opposite, conceptually. As much as I explore, far off the beaten Christian path, I also recognize, that from day-one, churches exist to teach doctrine … and just one. Pastors don't play musical chairs with other churches on Sunday (though there is a case for church-shopping).

And so, for Logos to go beyond an exploring/seminary type market, they need to allow 'walling off the garden'.

In Verbum, it's just barely. In Logos, it's walled relative to the primary denomination.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1389355#Comment_1389355

Not really opposite conceptually. I agree the Church exists to teach/protect doctrine. But that is a level above reading the Bible text in and of itself. I see Logos as a Bible study tool not as an arm of a church.

Graham Criddle

but you won't find it in the Biblical Event Navigator. In vocabulary, it can be subtle such as "birth of Jesus" rather than "incarnation" or "kenosis" or in Christian goal "salvation" vs. "theosis".

Yes but I was trying to understand the specific issues that @Daniel Aguilera was referring to.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1389363#Comment_1389363

Okay, how would you describe this answer. Note I very carefully did NOT open the door to a comparison with other views. I did NOT open the door to an evaluation of the scriptural references.

Even if I instruct it to provide a Oneness Pentecostal view, it can't resist telling me I'm an oddball …

Yes, I can explain why AI does this but I also understand why it feels like "pushing their beliefs" to the OP. The Study Assistant does better at staying on topic.

NichtnurBibelleser

Instead, as Verbum is marketed as Catholic App, I expect it show a distinct Catholic viewpoint/bias. Especially when it comes to doctrinal questions as shown above in the automatically added Factbook sections. I tested "Marriage" in Study Assistant and Factbook. The former reflected upon differences between the Catholic and Protestant viewpoints (which I didn't ask for in the Catholic App), the latter applied Logos' default Systematic Theology which is not the Catholic one.

Yasmin Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1389351#Comment_1389351

True, build it and they will come. But that's harder work than the low hanging fruit that is easy to grab and store in pre-designed crates.

Doc B

I thought theological debates like this were supposed to be off-limits in the forums.

???

DMB

I think the 'debate' is the software … not the theology.