Why is the recently announced Talmud pre-pub so exciting and important?
Prompted by Hendrik-Jan van der Wal's post on another thread, I decided to do for the Talmud what I did for the Catena Aurea. Maybe this post will end up edited and on the Logos blog, too. 
Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:
Perhaps the people at Logos (or someone else...) could write about the Talmud on the Logos blog.
Well, I'm not very knowledgeable about it myself, but I do know how to do a bit of research. And I don't have access to the Logos blog to post to it, but I can write here.
Logos recently announced the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection (50 vols) in pre-pub. I think this is an unfortunate choice of name since it looks like some vast scholarly collection of monographs about the Talmud. But it isn't. This is the Talmud! Many of you have probably heard of it and vaguely know it's important to Jews, but have no idea really what it is. So here's an explanation.
Compilation from several Wikipedia articles: "The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism, in the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history. The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 [AD]), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 [AD]), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh." "The Mishnah...is the first major written redaction of the Jewish oral traditions called the "Oral Torah" and the first major work of Rabbinic Judaism." Tannaitic refers to the Tannaim, "the Rabbinic sages whose views are recorded in the Mishnah." "The Tanakh...is a name used in Judaism for the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The Tanakh is also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra."
"The process of 'Gemara' proceeded in the two major centers of Jewish scholarship, the Land of Israel and Babylonia. Correspondingly, two bodies of analysis developed, and two works of Talmud were created. The older compilation is called the Jerusalem Talmud or the Talmud Yerushalmi. It was compiled in the fourth century in Israel. The Babylonian Talmud was compiled about the year 500 C.E., although it continued to be edited later. The word 'Talmud', when used without qualification, usually refers to the Babylonian Talmud."
From Internet Sacred Text Archive: "The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions. Despite the dry subject matter the Talmud makes interesting reading because it is infused with vigorous intellectual debate, humor and deep wisdom. As the saying goes, 'you don't have to be Jewish' to appreciate this text. If you put in the hard work required to read the Talmud, your mind will get a world-class workout."
Some quotations from the Talmud:
Beware of too much laughter, for it deadens the mind and produces oblivion.
Customs are more powerful than laws.
For the sake of peace one may lie, but peace itself should never be a lie.
God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee.
He that gives should never remember, he that receives should never forget.
Hold no man responsible for what he says in his grief.
Humor the sons of the poor, for they give science its splendor.
Learning is achieved only in company.
Live well. It is the greatest revenge.
Never expose yourself unnecessarily to danger; a miracle may not save you...and if it does, it will be deducted from your share of luck or merit.
Until a child is one year old it is incapable of sin.
Who can protest and does not, is an accomplice in the act.
Whoever destroys a single life is as guilty as though he had destroyed the entire world; and whoever rescues a single life earns as much merit as though he had rescued the entire world.
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"Talmud" is part of the Logos Controlled Vocabulary, so a Basic search for Talmud in your Entire Library will produce a Topic section at the beginning, with links to all your resources that have a main entry for Talmud. Worth reading a couple of these to get a better idea of what the Talmud is and what its value is to Christian study of the Bible and Judeo-Christian history.
The Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible entry has this helpful section:
"Present Significance of the Talmud.
"The Talmud across the centuries occupied an important place in Jewish education and was the principal text of study. Jewish academies and schools studied the completed Talmud. At an early age, Jewish youth began study, and this emphasis continued in the more advanced program of instruction in the Yeshivot (seminary equivalents). This distinctive feature of study, spanning the Middle Ages to the modern period, reached the point where the knowledge of the Talmud was considered better than that of the Scriptures. However, the Jewish humanist Enlightenment movement in the 1800s, no doubt resulting from attacks on the validity of the OT by critical scholars in the continental church in Europe, appealed to great numbers of Jewish people who could find little help in the Talmud for the secular world view of the 19th century. At the same time however, the Talmud was the mainstay of the religiously oriented Jew who sought by Halakah to meet the new demands of a modern world.
"With the rise of the State of Israel there appeared a greater interest in the Talmud, even where it had been previously neglected. More and more Jewish schools outside of Israel and the schools in Israel include it as a course of study. In Israel in particular, many laws which had become obsolete with the fall of Israel in a.d. 70 are now beginning to find application, for example, in agriculture, and the Talmud is providing more light and guidance. Even in situations where the laws of the Talmud would not directly apply the Talmud provides applicable guidelines, for example, in observance of Jewish festivals, marriage laws, virtues of compassion and benevolence, and hatred for injustice in society, that reflect biblical and Jewish values.
"The Christian can also benefit from the Talmud since it provides insights into life, beliefs, and religious practices of the 1st century a.d. The Gospel accounts find parallels in the Talmud. Not unexpectedly, the Gospels reflect a Jewish world and culture, and therefore the Talmud provides an indispensible background. The Mishna in particular provides a great deal of knowledge as to temple life and practices. There is also an opportunity to observe ancient Jewish insights into scriptural exegesis and practice."
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Here's an example of one of the multitude of places where Logos resources refer to the Talmud that could be enhanced by having the Talmud to link to. This is from the first International Critical Commentary volume on Matthew, discussing the "voice from heaven" in Matt 3:17:
"It is natural to link the voice from the heavens with the rabbinic bat qôl (‘daughter of a voice’) because this vehicle of revelation sometimes quoted Scripture (e.g. b. Soṭa 21a; b. Sanh. 104b), often came to declare God’s favourable estimation of a righteous individual or to settle disputes (e.g. t. Soṭa 13:3–4; b. Soṭa 48b; b. Sanh. 11a; b. B. Meṣ. 59b; b. Ta˓an. 24b), was often spoken of as being from the heavens (e.g. b. Ḥag. 14b; b. Sanh. 11 a;—but note also Deut 4:36; Dan 4:31), and could be thought of as the voice of God himself (e.g. b. Meg. 3a; b. Sanh. 94a). Caution is nevertheless required. The distance between the rabbis and the evangelists can be seen in this, that while for the former—perhaps in response to Christianity?—the bat qôl is generally an inferior substitute for the Holy Spirit (t. Soṭa 13:2; b. Yoma 9b), for the latter the voice accompanies a new coming of God’s Spirit, and it is no ‘echo’: in the gospels God speaks directly, without intermediary, to his Son. Hence specifically rabbinic conceptions of the bat qôl offer as much of a contrast as a comparison with regard to Mt 3:16, and we cannot claim that the voice at the Jordan is just the Christian equivalent of the rabbinic ‘daughter of a voice’."
All of those obscure references beginning with the abbreviation "b." would be links to the Babylonian Talmud in your Logos Library if you had it.
That's why this is such a monumental announcement from Logos that they are going to produce this resource. We are so blessed! (And this is from someone who didn't know that much about the Talmud before I started writing this post. Doesn't take long to find out how valuable it is.)
Yes, $159.95 sounds like a lot of money for a single Judaic resource, but it is after all 50 volumes worth of content. Think of it as more comparable to a 50-volume commentary set than a collection of miscellaneous books about some topic. Would you think $159.95 is a good deal for the former? Probably. Now go raid the penny jar and put $5 away this week, and again next week, and before you know it you'll have $160 saved up...long before Logos will be able to finish getting this resource produced.
Comments
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One minor nitpick- "The Christian can
also benefit from the Talmud since it provides insights into life,
beliefs, and religious practices of the 1st century a.d."The Talmud doesn't date to the 1st century AD, and we must be very
cautious in how and when we retroject its mindset, positions, arguments,
etc. back onto 1st century jews. After all, how much has law and
religion and general worldview changed in our last few hundred years?"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Rosie, you had me at "Talmud." [;)]
wish we had the Mishnah, too.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
Rosie, you had me at "Talmud."
You shouldn't have stopped there, but should have read on. [:)]
Dan DeVilder said:wish we had the Mishnah, too.
We will! It's part of the Talmud. "The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 [AD]), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 [AD])..."
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Rosie Perera said:Dan DeVilder said:
Rosie, you had me at "Talmud."
You shouldn't have stopped there, but should have read on.
Dan DeVilder said:wish we had the Mishnah, too.
We will! It's part of the Talmud. "The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 [AD]), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 [AD])..."
lol, Rosie, you are right. And the sad thing is, at one time, I KNEW that, too. Brain's gotten a little rusty in the last 2 decades.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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We have! http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/MISHNAH
And the Talmud will be linked to Mishnah
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Ben said:
One minor nitpick- "The Christian can also benefit from the Talmud since it provides insights into life, beliefs, and religious practices of the 1st century a.d."
The Talmud doesn't date to the 1st century AD, and we must be very cautious in how and when we retroject its mindset, positions, arguments, etc. back onto 1st century jews. After all, how much has law and religion and general worldview changed in our last few hundred years?
Of course. Very good point. But our general worldview has changed a lot faster even in the last ten years years than things changed in a whole century before modern technology and communication and transportation and the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution and Enlightenment ideas and all those sorts of things. That's not to say there would have been no changes in worldview over such a timespan -- evidently various sects did arise and die out in short spans of time even back then. But overall, the changes within the Jewish tradition in those early centuries would have been much more gradual than the changes in our contemporary church traditions.
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ELA said:
We have! http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/MISHNAH
And the Talmud will be linked to Mishnah
need an emoticon for "egg on the face". But that is weird, because I searched "Mishnah" . . . oooops, no I didn't, I accidentally left off the "h". Sigh. Am going to give up my "star" today.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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okay, what's the deal, is the Talmud inclusive of the Mishnah, or not? Or does it depend?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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LOL!!!!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
okay, what's the deal, is the Talmud inclusive of the Mishnah, or not? Or does it depend?
Answer my own question:
Talmud n. Hebrew (TAHL-muhd) The collection of ancient rabbinic laws, commentaries, and traditions related to the Torah. The Talmud is a compilation of two books: the Mishnah, or Oral Law, and the Gemara, which consists of commentaries on the Mishnah. Much of the Talmud follows a format in which a law from the Mishnah is cited, followed by rabbinic discussions and rulings on its meaning. The Talmud explains and elaborates on every aspect of Jewish life, including daily prayers, mitzvot, and holiday celebrations. The documents and commentaries—more than 2½ million words—that make up the Talmud were written, mostly in Aramaic, more than 1,500 years ago. Even today, many observant Jews spend years reading the tenets, commentaries, and variations of Talmud and looking for new interpretations. Talmudic scholars are regarded with respect and admiration; it is considered a noble and lifelong task to study the intricacies of Talmud. The word “Talmud” generally refers to two versions: the Jerusalem Talmud, compiled in the late 5th century C.E., and the more extensive Babylonian Talmud, compiled in the late 6th century C.E.
Joyce Eisenberg et al., The JPS Dictionary of Jewish Words (Philadelphia, PA: Jewish Publication Society, 2001), 167.logosres:jpsdicjewrds;ref=Page.p_167
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
okay, what's the deal, is the Talmud inclusive of the Mishnah, or not? Or does it depend?
I guess I was wrong. Or at least this Logos product will not include the Mishnah but rather will link to the existing resource.
Key Features Included
- Insightful introductions to each edition
- Detailed introduction to each tractate
- Linked to Neusner’s translation of the Mishnah
- Over 25,000 searchable pages
And further, the description of the Jerusalem Talmud and Babylonian Talmud:
"The Jerusalem Talmud, or Yerushalmi, is a commentary on the oral law (the Mishnah) of Israel that ties that oral law to the written law (the Torah, the Hebrew Scripture). Completed about 200 years prior to The Babylonian Talmud. "
"The Talmud of Babylonia (a.k.a., the Bavli, or Babylonian Talmud), is a sustained commentary on the written and oral law of Israel. Compiled between 500–600 C.E., it offers a magnificent record of how Jewish scholars preserved a humane and enduring civilization. Representing the primary document of rabbinic Judaism, it throws considerable light on the New Testament as well. "
The seven sample pages for the Jerusalem Talmud contain the introduction and are worth skimming through for further explanation of this.
And here's a screenshot from one of the sample pages in the Babylonian Talmud's introduction:
So it looks like what we'll be getting in this resource is just the Gemara (which is sometimes called the Talmud). The Mishnah is much shorter and is already in Logos format. I'm sure there will be plenty of quotes from the Mishnah in this commentary on it, just as a thorough commentary on a book of Scripture might contain pretty much every word of that book somewhere or other. But the straight Bible text as a whole is often not included within the commentary, since it is expected that you've already got it elsewhere. I think that's pretty much analogous to the Talmud situation.
I did learn all this stuff in my New Testament Survey class, but I'd forgotten it all. It's good to get a refresher.
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Ben said:
The Talmud doesn't date to the 1st century AD, and we must be very
cautious in how and when we retroject its mindset, positions, arguments,
etc. back onto 1st century jews.True, but it is also true that the Talmud is a collection of earlier materials including Paul's teacher. From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
The name "tanna" is derived from
the Aramaic "teni" or "tena" (="to teach"), and designates in general a
teacher of the oral law, and in particular one of the sages of the
Mishnah, those teachers of the oral law whose teachings are contained in
the Mishnah and in the Baraita. The term was first used in the Gemara
to indicate a teacher mentioned in the Mishnah or in a baraita, in
contradistinction to the later authorities, the Amoraim. Not all the
teachers of the oral law who are mentioned in the Mishnah are called tannaim,
however, but only those belonging to the period beginning with the
disciples of Shammai and Hillel and ending with the contemporaries of
Judah ha-Nasi I. The authorities preceding that period are called
"zeḳenim ha-rishonim" (the former elders). In the time of the Amoraim
the name "tanna" was given also to one well versed in the Mishnah and
the other tannaitic traditions.
The period of
the Tannaim, which lasted about 210 years
(10-220 C.E.), is generally divided by Jewish scholars into
five or six sections or generations, the purpose of such division being
to show which teachers developed their principal activity
contemporaneously. Some of the tannaim,
however, were active in more than one generation. The following is an
enumeration of the six generations and of the more prominent tannaim
respectively belonging to them:
First
Generation (10-80 C.E.):
Principal tannaim: the Shammaites (Bet Shammai) and the
Hillelites (Bet Hillel), 'Aḳabya b. Mahalaleel, Rabban Gamaliel the
Elder, Ḥanina, chief of the priests ("segan ha-kohanim"), Simeon b.
Gamaliel, and Johanan b. Zakkai.
Principal tannaim: Rabban Gamaliel II. (of Jabneh),
Zadok, Dosa b. Harkinas, Eliezer b. Jacob, Eliezer b. Hyrcanus, Joshua
b. Hananiah, Eleazar b. Azariah, Judah b. Bathyra.
Principal tannaim: Ṭarfon, Ishmael, Akiba, Johanan b.
Nuri, Jose ha-Gelili, Simeon b. Nanos, Judah b. Baba, and Johanan b.
Baroḳa. Several of these flourished in the preceding period.
This
generation extended from the death of Akiba (c. 140) to that of
the patriarch Simeon b. Gamaliel (c. 165). The teachers belonging
to this generation were: Meïr, Judah b. Ilai, Jose b. Ḥalafta, Simeon
b. Yoḥai, Eleazar b. Shammua, Johanan ha-Sandalar, Eleazar b. Jacob,
Nehemiah, Joshua b. Ḳarḥa, and the above-mentioned Simeon b. Gamaliel.
Principal tannaim: Nathan ha-Babli, Symmachus, Judah
ha-Nasi I., Jose b. Judah, Eleazar b. Simeon, Simeon b. Eleazar.
To this
generation belong the contemporaries and disciples of Judah ha-Nasi.
They are mentioned in the Tosefta and the Baraita but not in the
Mishnah. Their names are: Polemo, Issi b. Judah, Eleazar b. Jose,
Ishmael b. Jose, Judah b. Laḳish, Ḥiyya, Aḥa, Abba (Arika). These
teachers are termed "semi-tannaim"; and therefore some scholars count
only five generations of
tannaim. Christian scholars, moreover, count only four
generations, reckoning the second and third as one (Strack, "Einleitung
in den Talmud," pp. 77 et seq.).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
I guess I was wrong. Or at least this Logos product will not include the Mishnah but rather will link to the existing resource.
if all the sources we have cited from Wikipedia to the JPS dictionary are correct, I think the problem was our interpretation. Your quote said the Talmud was a compilation of the Mishnah and Gemarra. That does not mean (as we were assuming) a complete reproduction. Talmud is like a commentary on a commentary, right? Anyway, my understanding is it refers to the Mishnah, but is not THE Mishnah. So, Logos links to THE Mishnah if we want to see it in complete context.
Okay, someone prove me wrong. It's been done more than once in the last hour. [:$]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Soncino Babylonian Talmud http://www.halakhah.com/
Looking at the Talmud here should convince you that Logos tagging is very very useful.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan DeVilder said:
okay, what's the deal, is the Talmud inclusive of the Mishnah, or not? Or does it depend?
The answer is: sort of. The tractates of the Mishnah are divided into 6 divisions. The first division on Agriculture was seen as only pertaining to the land of Israel, not to Jews in diaspora, so the Babylonian Talmud only covers one tractate in that section, while the Jerusalem Talmud covers the entire division. However the Jerualem Talmud covers little of the Fifth Division, which is included in the Babylonian Talmud. And neither Talmud has much to say about the sixth division, except for the tractate Niddah. So while the Talmuds do print the portions of the Mishnah that they directly comment on, if you only owned the Talmuds, you would not have the complete Mishnah.
There are also other small differences between the Mishnah and the Mishnah as represented by the Talmuds - omissions of individual lines, etc.
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Dan DeVilder said:
if all the sources we have cited from Wikipedia to the JPS dictionary are correct, I think the problem was our interpretation. Your quote said the Talmud was a compilation of the Mishnah and Gemarra. That does not mean (as we were assuming) a complete reproduction. Talmud is like a commentary on a commentary, right? Anyway, my understanding is it refers to the Mishnah, but is not THE Mishnah. So, Logos links to THE Mishnah if we want to see it in complete context.
I think that my little screen shot from the intro to the Babylonian Talmud answers the question:
"The Talmud consists of a law code and a commentary on that code. The code is called the Mishnah....The commentary is called the Gemara or (somewhat confusingly) simply, the Talmud....Thus: the Mishnah + the Gemara = the Talmud."
The confusing part is that the word Talmud can mean two different things: 1) the entire Talmud (consisting of both the Mishnah and the commentary on it ); 2) just the commentary. So it depends on context what is meant by the word Talmud. In the case of this Logos resource, it is apparently just the commentary, since the Mishnah is externally linked, but in its other definition, the Talmud does include the text of the Mishnah in it, and there could be editions of it which include the full text of THE Mishnah. Just like some biblical commentaries include the full text of each chapter of a Bible book before they launch into the commentary section on it. See, for example, WBC, which includes the commentary author's own translation of the biblical text for each section. This edition of the Talmud edited by Jacob Neusner et al. evidently doesn't do that. Or else if it does include the Mishnah in its print version, Logos felt it would be redundant to include that in the digital resource since Jacob Neusner's own translation of the Mishnah is the one we already have in Logos as a separate resource.
EDIT: Vincent's more knowledgeable post which he was posting as I was writing mine answers the question better.
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Rosie Perera said:
Vincent's more knowledgeable post
Summary:
- The Talmuds have a direct relationship to the concept of oral as well as written Torah - some hold that the oral Torah also dates back to Moses
- The Talmuds include the portions of the Mishnah on which they directly comment
- The Talmuds are a collection of rabbinical interpretation, disputation etc. representing views both before and after the time of Jesus Christ
- The Talmuds are fundamental to the understanding of Judaism
- One may sample the Soncino Babylonian Talmud at http://www.halakhah.com/
- The Karaite Jews 'reject' the oral law, the Mishnah and the Talmuds
- The Talmuds provide the conceptual backgound for Edmond Jabes' The Book of Questions
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Saw this on Wikipedia about the Mishnah and Talmud
"The two main commentaries on the Mishna are the Babylonian Talmud and the Yerushalmi Talmud. Neither work covers all the Mishnayos, but each work is on about 50%-70% of the Mishna. The reason that the Talmud is not usually viewed as a commentary on the Mishna, is because it also has many other goals, and can get involved in long tangential discussions. However, the main purpose of the Talmud is as a commentary on the Mishna."
Jason Saling
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Ben said:
The Talmud doesn't date to the 1st century AD, and we must be very
cautious in how and when we retroject its mindset, positions, arguments,
etc. back onto 1st century jews. After all, how much has law and
religion and general worldview changed in our last few hundred years?Amen! And we need to be even more careful to assume that the views explained in the Talmuds were shared by the Jewish writers of the NT. Nevertheless, I am delighted to see this resource on pre-pub. I really hope it will be properly linked to from all my other resources.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Thank you, Vincent, et al. My brain is clear and free to roam now. [:)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Thank you everyone who commented!
Not only was this a very informative thread, it looks like this is something that will be valuable to my Logos library!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Mark Barnes said:
Amen! And we need to be even more careful to assume that the views explained in the Talmuds were shared by the Jewish writers of the NT
Good points, we need to be equal careful to assume the the views of todays seminaries, commentaries in our resources (I too am delighted w/them) etc, share the same mindset of Jewish writers of the NT. (Please don't take this in a negative way) We are on the same page, making the same point really. Create in me O Father Yah, a Yahweh mindset!
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Robert Pavich said:
Thank you everyone who commented!
Not only was this a very informative thread, it looks like this is something that will be valuable to my Logos library!
With Robert and others I express my appreciation to all who have written ...
My order is in! ........... *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Those who want to prepare themselves for the big day when the Talmud is published, might also want to read a good introduction to the Talmud and/or Jewish literature.
I would recommend:
- R.C.Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the Writings of Judaism, OUP 1982 [translated from Dutch; very short, but covers everything from the Hebrew Bible to Maimonides and the Kabbalah].
- Adin Steinsaltz, The Essential Talmud, Basic Books 1976.
- H.L.Strack and Günter Stemberger, Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash, Augsburg Fortress Publishers (Logos partner!!!) 1992 [for those who like German - or rather Austrian - thoroughness].
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Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:
Those who want to prepare themselves for the big day when the Talmud is published, might also want to read a good introduction to the Talmud and/or Jewish literature.
I would recommend:
- R.C.Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the Writings of Judaism, OUP 1982 [translated from Dutch; very short, but covers everything from the Hebrew Bible to Maimonides and the Kabbalah].
- Adin Steinsaltz, The Essential Talmud, Basic Books 1976.
- H.L.Strack and Günter Stemberger, Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash, Augsburg Fortress Publishers (Logos partner!!!) 1992 [for those who like German - or rather Austrian - thoroughness].
Would be nice if some of those resources were available in Logos format. But lacking that, there is: Studies in Talmud and Midrash Collection, which contains these two books:
- Michael Katz & Gershon Schwartz, Swimming in the Sea of Talmud, Jewish Publication Society, 1997.
- Michael Katz & Gershon Schwartz, Searching For Meaning In Midrash, Jewish Publication Society, 2002.
"Within both volumes you will find comprehensive, clear and accessible guides to help you understand Jewish Scripture, law, ethics, customs, and history. Whether you are familiar with the Talmud and the Midrash, or are looking for an understandable resource to acquaint yourself with these important works, the Studies in Talmud and Midrash Collection (2 Vols.) provides you with the tools you need to for a fuller understanding of the Talmud and the Midrash."
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Rosie Perera said:
Would be nice if some of those resources were available in Logos format. But lacking that, there is: Studies in Talmud and Midrash Collection, which contains these two books:
[Y] You're right, I should have mentioned this collection.
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Ben said:
One minor nitpick- "The Christian can
also benefit from the Talmud since it provides insights into life,
beliefs, and religious practices of the 1st century a.d."The Talmud doesn't date to the 1st century AD, and we must be very
cautious in how and when we retroject its mindset, positions, arguments,
etc. back onto 1st century jews. After all, how much has law and
religion and general worldview changed in our last few hundred years?Interestingly, the same Jacob Neusner in his Rabbinic Literature and the New Testament: What We Cannot Show, We Do Not Know says that the rabbinical writings are largely useless for informing us about the New Testament, because they are quite unreliable in terms of trusting what they say about who said what and when and where. In the first chapter, I think, of the book, he explains what he means by giving a description of what the reliability of the NT would be like if it resembled the Talmud.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Dan DeVilder said:
Rosie, you had me at "Talmud."
wish we had the Mishnah, too.
We do.
Neusner, Jacob. The Mishnah : A New Translation. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1988.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie Perera said:
Prompted by Hendrik-Jan van der Wal's post on another thread, I decided to do for the Talmud what I did for the Catena Aurea. Maybe this post will end up edited and on the Logos blog, too.
And if you wish to read from the Talmud before you decide whether to jump in (you don't have much time), here it is
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/talmudtoc.html
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Dan DeVilder said:
Rosie, you had me at "Talmud."
wish we had the Mishnah, too.
We do.
Neusner, Jacob. The Mishnah : A New Translation. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1988.
dangit, George, my ignorance was like so yesterday!!!!!! Thanks for resurrecting it. In between times I have seen the light.[I]
[8-|]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Does anyone know if the Tosefta are included? They apparently are "addenda" to the Talmudic writings that, at least in physical form, are published separately.
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Oldnewbie said:
Does anyone know if the Tosefta are included? They apparently are "addenda" to the Talmudic writings that, at least in physical form, are published separately.
The Tosefta are supplements to the Mishnah and frequently quite in agreement with it. It does, however, have some additions from which it gets its name. It is less authoritative.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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How much will this be after the Pre-Pub price?
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Thomas Yassine Bourega said:
How much will this be after the Pre-Pub price?
I'm afraid none of us know, and Logos normally don't tell us until after pre-pub. Very occasionally the price doesn't go up at all, but that's very unusual.If I had to guess, I'd guess around the $400-$500 mark, but that is a complete guess and I could be completely wrong.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Aw man lol. This would be so great to have... I'm doing Old Testament Historical Books this semester too, and it would make a great contribution to my understanding... certainly could be on the cards by the looks of it!
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Mark Barnes said:Thomas Yassine Bourega said:
How much will this be after the Pre-Pub price?
I'm afraid none of us know, and Logos normally don't tell us until after pre-pub. Very occasionally the price doesn't go up at all, but that's very unusual.If I had to guess, I'd guess around the $400-$500 mark, but that is a complete guess and I could be completely wrong.
I don't find a print edition of these. I do, however find CDs containing separately the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud at about $100.00 each = $200.00.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Mark Barnes said:Thomas Yassine Bourega said:
How much will this be after the Pre-Pub price?
I'm afraid none of us know, and Logos normally don't tell us until after pre-pub. Very occasionally the price doesn't go up at all, but that's very unusual.If I had to guess, I'd guess around the $400-$500 mark, but that is a complete guess and I could be completely wrong.
I don't find a print edition of these. I do, however find CDs containing separately the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud at about $100.00 each = $200.00.
It looks like only the print edition of the Babylonian Talmud is still available (for over $400), but Neusner's Jerusalem Talmud appears to be available in high-priced individual print volumes, though not as a set. I could swear I saw print sets of both editions of Neusner (Babylonian and Jerusalem) on a friend's bookshelf in Jerusalem when I was there in 2009, but maybe Hendrickson has stopped printing Yerushalmi. That said, if you think you'll have any interest in, or use for, the Talmud, and you can't read the Aramaic original with fluency or, like me, can't read it at all, then I think this purchase at this price is a must-have no-brainer for every Logos user. Combined with the $35 Logos Mishnah by Neusner (which I'll get when the Talmud ships), the linking to Scripture and back and forth between the Talmud (Gemara) and Mishnah makes this IMO so superior to every other way of accessing the Talmud that one shouldn't have to think twice about whether to purchase it. Rabbinical citations are part and parcel of NT studies even if they may only be of tangential interest and may, per Neusner himself, be worth very little in terms of helping our understanding of the NT. Some will probably disagree with Neusner's translation - I assume it's like Bible translations, the great number of which we have show the difficulty and sometimes impossibility of getting it "right" when translating into English. But I assume it's a good basis for starting one's reading of and use of the Talmud. Plus, whenever a commentary or something references a Talmudic passage, you'll be able to click and read it, at least in translation.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
I think this purchase at this price is a must-have no-brainer for every Logos user.
Well said, I heartly concur.
Eric Weiss said:Rabbinical citations are part and parcel of NT studies even if they may only be of tangential interest and may, per Neusner himself, be worth very little in terms of helping our understanding of the NT.
Yeah, right ! That's why Strack and Billerbeck wrote Kommentar zum Neuen Testament, aus Talmud und Midrash since they apparently didn't think it was worth much in understanding the New Testament.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I'm guessing Eric wanted to balance his enthusiasm for those who caution care when using the Talmuds.
But when I'm in the first 6 books of the NT, John Lightfoot's commentary on the NT from the Talmud is a definite go-to. It's over 150 years old and still great reading. http://www.logos.com/product/5912/a-commentary-on-the-new-testament-from-the-talmud-and-hebraica I say the first 6 books since that's as far as he got.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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George Somsel said:Eric Weiss said:
I think this purchase at this price is a must-have no-brainer for every Logos user.
Well said, I heartly concur.
Eric Weiss said:Rabbinical citations are part and parcel of NT studies even if they may only be of tangential interest and may, per Neusner himself, be worth very little in terms of helping our understanding of the NT.
Yeah, right ! That's why Strack and Billerbeck wrote Kommentar zum Neuen Testament, aus Talmud und Midrash since they apparently didn't think it was worth much in understanding the New Testament.
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Book DescriptionHere is a sustained
criticism of the "rather facile use" of rabbinic literature by New
Testament scholarship. In particular, Neusner addresses the writings of
Helmut Koester, Samuel Sandmel, Reginald Fuller, Harvey Falk, Geza
Vermes, E.P. Sanders, S.J.D. Cohen, Morton Smith, John P. Meier, and
Brad H. Young.
The book begins with a study of the
characteristics of rabbinic literature and a demonstration of why this
literature cannot be easily used for the kind of history New Testament
scholarship proposes to produce. Then follow critiques of the writings
by various New Testament scholars and the differences between Professor
Neusner and his critics. A concluding section pays tribute to the New
Testament field for all it has taught the author.
The problem scholars had in using and recommending Edersheim''''s work
was his sweeping use of Jewish material, especially the Babylonian
Talmud, without addressing issues of dating as it might apply to the
first century (especially problematic since the Talmud was compiled some
five hundred years later near the end of the sixth century). The proper
use of Talmudic material for New Testament studies is still debated,
although no one doubts its benefit and relevance.Just sayin'....I may have overstated Neusner's criticism of the Talmud for NT studies, as it's been years since I read the book, but he does criticize its use and value nevertheless.- - -
And I may have misrepresented Neusner. He may be more focusing on the use of the Talmud in the search for the historical Jesus as opposed to its value for NT studies in general:
http://www.bookmanministries.com/Documents/Neusner%20and%20the%20Quest.pdf
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
I may have overstated Neusner's criticism of the Talmud for NT studies, as it's been years since I read the book, but he does criticize its use and value nevertheless.
You haven't overstated it at all. Neusner accepts that some content that found its way into the Talmud (and other Jewish documents) undoubtedly influenced the NT. But he argues that we cannot assume that ALL the Talmud was equally influential or even known to NT writers, and the fact that there are similar ideas in the two documents is not sufficient evidence to demonstrate influence or dependency. His basic point is the NT scholars generally make too many assumptions without proving their point through evidence, hence "what we cannot show, we do no know".
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Eric Weiss said:
The problem scholars had in using and recommending Edersheim''''s work was his sweeping use of Jewish material, especially the Babylonian Talmud, without addressing issues of dating as it might apply to the first century (especially problematic since the Talmud was compiled some five hundred years later near the end of the sixth century).
While the date of compilation is much later than the time of the NT, one must take into consideration the character of such works as the Mishnah and Talmud. The date of compilation does not necessarily reflect the date of the opinions expressed since this is a dialogue of various Jewish scholars not only of one time but across generations. If Rabbi Split-pants says X and Rabbi Stubble-beard says Y while Rabbi Blue-eyes says Z on the basis of Rabbi Pick-nose, that is what we are told. The job then is not to simply accept the entire general view of the Talmud but to examine the opinions of whoever lived at or close to the time of the NT.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Eric Weiss said:
The problem scholars had in using and recommending Edersheim''''s work was his sweeping use of Jewish material, especially the Babylonian Talmud, without addressing issues of dating as it might apply to the first century (especially problematic since the Talmud was compiled some five hundred years later near the end of the sixth century).
While the date of compilation is much later than the time of the NT, one must take into consideration the character of such works as the Mishnah and Talmud. The date of compilation does not necessarily reflect the date of the opinions expressed since this is a dialogue of various Jewish scholars not only of one time but across generations. If Rabbi Split-pants says X and Rabbi Stubble-beard says Y while Rabbi Blue-eyes says Z on the basis of Rabbi Pick-nose, that is what we are told. The job then is not to simply accept the entire general view of the Talmud but to examine the opinions of whoever lived at or close to the time of the NT.
George: I think I had one of those rabbis at Temple B'nai Jeshuran or Tifereth Israel Synagogue when I went to synagogue as a kid. [8-|]
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Delayed again until April 28 this time: http://www.logos.com/product/6667/babylonian-and-jerusalem-talmud-collection
You can still get the pre-pub price if you hurry!
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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It looks like we're FINALLY getting this 5/19/2011.
Of course, it says ~5/19/2011.
But if we get it this Thursday, that will give me 1-2 days to read it all before the Rapture! [8-|]
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
But if we get it this Thursday, that will give me 1-2 days to read it all before the Rapture!
What ??!! You mean that even with my inside connections I wasn't informed of this? [:S]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Eric Weiss said:
But if we get it this Thursday, that will give me 1-2 days to read it all before the Rapture!
What ??!! You mean that even with my inside connections I wasn't informed of this?
Apparently you've missed all the public service announcements from the good folks at: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com
and http://www.wecanknow.com. They've been traveling the US in "Project Caravan" and distributing billboards and tracts all over the world to let everyone know. Apparently the people in Alaska, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, most of the Middle East, most of northern Africa, most of Russia, and northern Canada aren't worth saving, though (http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/map/).And who inspired all of this? Harold Camping of http://www.familyradio.com.
Here's more info.
And more.
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Rosie Perera said:
Apparently you've missed all the public service announcements from the good folks at: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com
and http://www.wecanknow.com. They've been traveling the US in "Project Caravan" and distributing billboards and tracts all over the world to let everyone know. Apparently the people in Alaska, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, most of the Middle East, most of northern Africa, most of Russia, and northern Canada aren't worth saving, though (http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/map/).Actually, I didn't miss it. I've seen the billboards. I was simply making light of it. [;)]
Matthew 24:23–27 (NRSV)
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Rosie Perera said:
Apparently you've missed all the public service announcements from the good folks at: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com
and http://www.wecanknow.com. They've been traveling the US in "Project Caravan" and distributing billboards and tracts all over the world to let everyone know. Apparently the people in Alaska, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, most of the Middle East, most of northern Africa, most of Russia, and northern Canada aren't worth saving, though (http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/map/).Actually, I didn't miss it. I've seen the billboards. I was simply making light of it.
Ah, I see. Didn't catch the humor in your online tone of voice. [;)]
George Somsel said:Matthew 24:23–27 (NRSV)
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Try telling them that and they've got an answer for it. It's good enough for me, though, to give this group or anyone else like them a pass. As for Harold Camping himself? Well, the letters in his name spell ... (you figure it out; there are several good anagrams in there; try adding his middle name Egbert too), which is surely a code God put in there to tell us how much we should listen to him. [;)]
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