A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
Yes it is an interesting situation.... a big upfront commitment for something unseen.
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I think I'll have to pass. I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point. It will be interesting to see what will happen with this.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Here is more information. Seems the initial work will be digital-only and Logos is the publisher.
http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/
Interesting. If I were a younger guy I would probably bite.
Note the blurb about a print edition:
"The digital edition will be unabridged, but an abridged print edition will also be published for those who want it."
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
I did preorder, but mostly to lock in the price. The authors look interesting enough to warrant the price, I think. I'll keep looking into this and decide whether or not to cancel my pre-order later.
The anticipated release dates can be found on this page:http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/volumes/
Looks like the first volume will be out in April of 2011.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Mark A. Smith said:
I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point.
They ought to rename it "The Lord Willing" Commentary James 4:13-17
But I think Logos already knows many of us place Pre-Pubs orders with a "Lord willing" view to completion.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Mark A. Smith said:
I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point.
They ought to rename it "The Lord Willing" Commentary James 4:13-17
But I think Logos already knows many of us place Pre-Pubs orders with a "Lord willing" view to completion.
[:D]
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Interesting. I wonder what happens if you pre-order this and then, after receiving the first volume or two change your mind and wish not to get the rest. Presumably it would be too late to cancel your prepub order at that point. I suppose you'd have to return those ones since otherwise you're locked into the purchase contract for the rest of them.
Another point to ponder: will our credit cards be charged the full $699.95 when volume 1 ships or only after all volumes have shipped, or will they be charged a percentage when each volume ships?
It's already listed as "Under Development" so it must have enough orders already right off the starting block, or else Logos has committed to share the risk with the publisher if it doesn't sell enough copies.
It is risky dishing out such money for an unreviewed commentary set, but as Richard pointed out, many of the authors are known from their other work, some of which I already have in Logos.
Incidentally, this isn't the first time a commentary has been published in digital form without being preceded by a print edition. The five-volume tome, An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible, by James Rosscup, was never published in print. It was released as a Logos edition only. There might have been other instances, as Mark alluded to. But this EEC does seem like a new concept. Not unlike subscribing to series in print, which has been around for a while. This is now just a final admission that we are really in the digital age.
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Rosie,
The full $699.95 (or more…if you wait too long to pre-order… [:D] ) will be charged when the first volume is ready, and then the remaining volumes will download for free as they are completed.
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Rosie Perera said:
This is now just a final admission that we are really in the digital age.
Apparently that is what the print publisher they approached concluded:
"Furthermore, the publisher could no longer be sure they could
successfully market such a massive commentary series. For many pastors
and scholars, spending thousands of dollars on a set of print
commentaries is a thing of the past."Rosie Perera said:Not unlike subscribing to series in print, which has been around for a while.
Yes, but those are charged a volume at a time, not the whole set in advance.
One is trusting that the series will not run into financial trouble after you pay your $700, and that it will not be inordinately delayed.
However, if it is completed by 2019 that $700 could look like gas and coffee money by then.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rosie Perera said:
It's already listed as "Under Development" so it must have enough orders already right off the starting block, or else Logos has committed to share the risk with the publisher if it doesn't sell enough copies.
Logos is the publisher..... and from their tweet its already been five years in the making:
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Andrew McKenzie said:
Logos is the publisher..... and from their tweet its already been five years in the making:
The whole story is in the extra link above: http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/
Logos didn't get involved until sometime last year. Seems to be an ambitious undertaking for them, although I suspect their role is mostly funding.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Don't think I afford the whole set now. I am still making payments on the NICOT/NICNT set. But I sure would like to buy some of the volumes as they come out - (especially the John Oswalt volume on Kings.) I wonder if that will be possible?
Maybe after I finish paying for the NICOT/NICNT set I will take a good look at this.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
I wonder if that will be possible?
The pre-pub page is pretty clear about the fact that Logos does not intend to release these volumes individually.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Logos is asking a lot faith from its customers and providing little when it comes to guarantees.
What if individual books (or even the whole series) are cancelled, delayed, or reassigned? Do we get a refund if the product is substandard or not as promised?
What if after the first volume is published, I realize that the great idea was poorly executed and that the series does not bring anything new to the discussion (besides updated bibliographies)?
The reason why I bought series like NICOT/NICNT, AYBC, BECNT, and other series was because they were known quantities and proven series. While I believe that the authors of the EEC are very capable (as I personally know some of them or have books by most of them), committing $700 of my hard earned money to the ECC requires a leap of faith that only the Lord gets from me.
The matter might have been different if Logos had provided one or two volumes that are representative of the series (excerpts or entire volumes like what happened with the CBC series). Additionally, the idea of being charged the full $700 after the first volume with no guarantee that I would get my money worth produces a "critical failure/deal breaker message" for me (from a financial stewardship perspective). It would be something else if I had the option of opting out if the product turned out to be less than all it was cracked up to be (This would not be the first time that a “promising” series with great scholars attached to it ends up being a disappointment).
For me to get on board or recommend the upcoming series to anyone (it is still vaporware for now), three conditions need to be met:
The structure, goal, layout, depth, and so on of the series needs to be given with much more details in additional to showing exactly how it will be better than what I already have in my library (e.g. NICOT/NICNT, BECNT).
I need to get my hands on representative samples or entire volumes and read informed reviews of early volumes.
I need to know that my investment is guaranteed against cancellations, delays, or reassignments? This means that I will only be charged for volumes when they are published and that Logos’ failure to honor any part of the contract (cancellations, delays, or reassignments…) gives me the right to opt out of the program without being charged for unpublished volumes.
I am excited about the idea of primarily digital biblical resources and this series looks like a very good idea, however, I find the terms to be unacceptable and rather one sided (besides whatever commitment Logos might have made to the potential authors). The idea of loaning almost $700 interest free to Logos for x number of years and part of it for almost a decade just does not compute.
I hope Logos is listening because the ECC appears to be promising
Alain
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I think I will pass on this as well. The stipulations and the length of time to publish these volumes is not practical. I will be retired from ministry before I would ever get the oppotunity to use the entire set. Some of the authors I would consider getting the separate volumes for but it is way to much money for me to put up front with nothing to show for it.
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does the refund guarantee within the first month apply if I get the first volume and don't think it's worth the money?
Could we PLEASE have some sample pages from at least one of the volumes to help us make up our minds? I shall order it, to lock in at the price, but may well decide to cancel my order if not convinced that it's a good and safe investment. I've decided not to order several commentaries because they are more technical than I need as a non-academic missionary.[^o)]
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If someone gets frustrated because of a pre-pub's release date gets pushed pack (time after time) then what if that pre-pub is already paid for, like when we get the first volume of the set. It looks like it will be good, but I'll have to pass as well.
love the try,
tim
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I pre-ordered but after reading this thread I going to re-think my decision. Thanks for all the valuable comments. And without a sample page(s) to actually see, I won't be ordering it at all. I agree with Nicky!
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As I continue to contemplate this one, I think it provides the necessary exception to the rule that Prepubs are not on the payment program. I would gladly start a payment program for them, but alas my pockets have bottoms; and coming up with $700 for a sight unseen project hurts worse than taking the next two years to pay it off in monthly installments.
As much as I would like to be a part of this one, I regretfully won't be able to.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I thought I would do some analysis to try and understand when different titles are actually scheduled to be released. (I know it is on the EEC site but I wanted to break it down into years of release.
I include it below - hope it is useful to someone.
Schedule of releases where the date is known
# of volumes per year (where known)
Volumes where ship date is TBA (not included in graph above)
Graham
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It would be good to see sample pages of some of the early commentaries. The press release talks about being released from the constraints of print. It would be helpful if significant portions of the Psalms and Epistles of John commentaries scheduled for 2011 be released for preview. It would be interesting not just to see the introduction sections, but the exegetical portion of the commentary. A suggestion is to give a sample of 4-5 chapters in the Psalms with varying styles and chapter one of 1 John.
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This set is a payment plan in reverse: We pay up front and hope to get the volumes over the next decade! [^o)]
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Wayne said:
It would be good to see sample pages of some of the early commentaries. The press release talks about being released from the constraints of print. It would be helpful if significant portions of the Psalms and Epistles of John commentaries scheduled for 2011 be released for preview. It would be interesting not just to see the introduction sections, but the exegetical portion of the commentary. A suggestion is to give a sample of 4-5 chapters in the Psalms with varying styles and chapter one of 1 John.
Wayne,
That would go a long way to answering questions and reservations, and would doubtless increase the pre-purchase.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I too pre-ordered after reading the promotional materials... I almost feel silly having pre-ordered now, after having read this thread. I guess I hadn't really thought through all the things that could making paying up front such a poor idea. Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Alain does make a good point; in some ways it feels like we would be lending Logos the money to aid in funding the creation of the series. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in principle, but as has been pointed out, if we are going to co-invest than we need to know a little more about the product and planned content. The kind of information Wayne is suggesting would be helpful.
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I am sorry I just can't seeing paying that much money up front for a set that won't be out by AT LEAST 2019. Quite a few volumes are TBA, and of course things slip. When will it all be out - 2021? 2025?
What will the set cost later, when done in 202x - $1500? If it's 2022, put the money somewhere at 6.5% (stocks and bonds are way beyond that over a 10+ year cycle), and then you have the luxury of paying with future money and seeing ifs the collection is good.
That money won't do anything of value for me for a very long time. It just sounds like early purchasers are funding the project .
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Alain Maashe said:
Logos is asking a lot faith from its customers and providing little when it comes to guarantees.
You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
But there are significant questions that do remain unanswered (which you also raise), and Logos is asking us to take a substantial risk in buying this set. I understand Logos is also taking a risk in publishing it, and moving ahead before having the pre-pub financial requirements fully met. Yet, as a publisher, that's the nature of the business.
Instead of withdrawing my pre-pub purchase, I'm going to keep it there (at least for now), and ask Logos to provide some up-front risk alleviation. First, while $700 is a bargain for a commentary of this size and (probably quality), early adopters may need a bit more incentive to manage this investment. How about a "6 months same as cash" plan for those who jump in before the pre-pub goes 'gold?'
Second, offer a full refund for those who are disappointed after the first 3 or 4 volumes are released (wouldn't want to judge the whole series based on one volume).
Third, offer an option for paying for these volumes as they are released (make it a separate pre-pub for the same works). I would assume that this would bump the amount significantly, as the series likely needs an inflow of cash now, not after the work is done. Then, those who would want to bow out, could do so perhaps more easily (keeping what they've purchased so far). I would imagine it would look something like this But something structured along these lines could help folks manage the risk, and balance it with financial incentives. Something like $50/volume for the 1st 22 volumes (with the remaining volumes coming free/included), paying $25/volume for all volumes planned to be released in the coming year (after the first is released), with the understanding that some delays are likely from time to time), to be paid on the first of the year.
Fourth, if Logos is looking for investors in the project, they may simply want to ask. There may be some who believe enough in the project to fork out some capital for it, provided there would be some return on the investment as well. This seems like another reasonable way to move this project forward, should the current pre-pub plan not meet expectations.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I was involved in Christian publishing for over 20 years, going back to 1971. I have seen many commentary dates pushed back considerably over the years.
All kinds of things can and will happen unexpectedly before this 44 volume set is completed.
I don't doubt Logos' intentions of doing what it says.
People must realize that there are many factors beyond their control in publishing a set like this.
I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
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Edwin Bowden said:
I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
Edwin,
I believe your right. They must have anticipated these very discussions. And they likely have a prepared response...
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[y] I trust Logos completely, and I believe 100% they would take care of any problems that may arise along the way.Richard DeRuiter said:You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
Thank you Edwin for voicing your assurance. I agree and honestly I expect we won't have to wait long for a response to the questions raised.Edwin Bowden said:I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas Black said:Richard DeRuiter said:
You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
I trust Logos completely, and I believe 100% they would take care of any problems that may arise along the way.
Thank you Edwin for voicing your assurance. I agree and honestly I expect we won't have to wait long for a response to the questions raised.Edwin Bowden said:I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
While I think any customer who has any significant experience with Logos would agree (as I certainly do).. it's surprising that Logos with their experience with their customers would not have anticipated at least some of this and sought to address it in their announcements. Especially if they have "prepared responses".
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Andrew Hughes said:
While I think any customer who has any significant experience with Logos would agree (as I certainly do).. it's surprising that Logos with their experience with their customers would not have anticipated at least some of this and sought to address it in their announcements. Especially if they have "prepared responses".
I can quite imagine that Logos does not have a prepared response. So far all their discussion has likely been internal and from a publishing perspective, and up till this point the pre-pub model has served to help them to pre-market their materials in a way that a large customer base understands. But they may not have fully appreciated all the questions that we have raised as potential customers. We're not used to taking the kinds of risks they take on a daily basis.
But I do think we'll see Logos respond to us, probably after consultation with the EEC committee, or representatives thereof (although I would expect some sort of preliminary response, if they do need to consult with the EEC before making any changes to the program). We've thrown quite a bit of commentary at them, and they'll want to respond in a responsible and careful way. I wouldn't doubt that they're discussing their response over espresso right now.
Another perspective on this:
I hinted above at another way for us pre-pub customers to look at this particular project: we have the opportunity to help fund a major, ground-breaking commentary project, done by world-class, evangelical scholars that has the potential to serve the Church for decades to come. In part, this is why I made the pre-order and why I'm letting my pre-order stand. It looks like a worthy project to support. And while my $700 won't be the deal-breaker on whether or not the project moves forward, it'll play a part, along with a lot of other parts, in doing something potentially great. In other words, I'm not making the risk/reward analysis merely on the basis of what may benefit me, but on what will probably benefit my Savior's bride.
Yet, even the above motivation makes me want to know more. Give me some sample pages. Point me to some formatting/framework parameters the commentaries will follow. Show me an example of the exegesis in one of the soon-to-be released volumes. Give me an introduction to one of the volumes. Let me "overhear" an internal discussion regarding the JEDP debate, the historical reliability of Genesis 1-11, the veracity of the "Q" theory (regarding the writing of the Gospels), or some other hotly debated issue that tends to put evangelicalism vis a vis theological liberalism and/or extreme fundamentalism. In other words, show me how this series will be faithful to the concepts of being an exegetical commentary and an evangelical commentary.
At least that's how I'm looking at it today.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Nah, Bold and Black Americano is the only suitable beverage for discussing this kind of response. Espresso is generally reserved for jovial greetings not power matches.Richard DeRuiter said:I wouldn't doubt that they're discussing their response over espresso right now.
On the serious side, I agree Richard with your reasoning. My issue is not the worthiness of the material, but the capacity of my budget. I'm working out how to make it work. And I'm silently hopeful for a payment plan.
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Thomas Black said:
My issue is not the worthiness of the material, but the capacity of my budget. I'm working out how to make it work. And I'm silently hopeful for a payment plan.
If the volumes are released on schedule, at the end of 2 years, those 7 volumes have cost you $100 each.
Yes. If we are financing the development of the series, we need some financing of the payment.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Yet, even the above motivation makes me want to know more. Give me some sample pages. Point me to some formatting/framework parameters the commentaries will follow. Show me an example of the exegesis in one of the soon-to-be released volumes. Give me an introduction to one of the volumes. Let me "overhear" an internal discussion regarding the JEDP debate, the historical reliability of Genesis 1-11, the veracity of the "Q" theory (regarding the writing of the Gospels), or some other hotly debated issue that tends to put evangelicalism vis a vis theological liberalism and/or extreme fundamentalism. In other words, show me how this series will be faithful to the concepts of being an exegetical commentary and an evangelical commentary.
At least that's how I'm looking at it today.
As a publishers' rep to bookstores for several years. I remember some of the frustration of trying to sell books and Bibles to store buyers with very little actual detailed info on their content. I often had a table of contents and what the book hoped to do. Often, I was selling a book that had not yet been finalized. When I asked a rep for a large academic publisher how he sold 300 new titles per season, he responded, "By gosh and by golly."
My wife was a book buyer for a major bookstore. I remember her complaining about a particular title that she thought did not resemble what she thought she was buying from the rep. I explained to her that the book was probably not finalized when it was presented to the rep.
Logos has a great track record of publishing digitally titles that have a proven track record from their print success.
This is a whole new ballgame. I commend for Logos for stepping up to the plate for what appears will be an excellent series. It will require a whole different approach in presenting it to Logos customers than Logos has previously used.
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I would like the "why" question clearly answered, why do we need a new commentary set? What will it add to what is already available and why will it add value?
I think that "new" is seriously overvalued, in itself it is actually bad rather than good to have soemthing new unless it is clear why it is improving on what is available, this project smacks of marketing rather than adding theological value.
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These are exciting times we live in!
Think about how incredible it is that this discussion is even taking place, and think of all the reasons why. What we are doing here has never been done before. Let that sink in for a second. "What we are doing here has never been done before." There's a lot of uncharted territory in the "never" category.
Yes, it really is a bold plan.
It is so bold, that no one in the traditional print publishing industry thought it could be done. I know what some of you are thinking... "The people reading this thread right now think it can't be done too!"
[:P]
For all intents and purposes, a project of this scope was thought to be a thing of the past, but we were not content to sit by and watch it die. Major new commentary series should be written. Scholars shouldn't have their full knowledge of a subject limited to 500 words. Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.
We are risk-takers.
We are trying to be as wise as possible, but we are risk-takers nonetheless, and the freedom that brings is fantastic! How liberating and exciting it is to keep doing the impossible and seeing the results help people get closer to God and bring Him glory through the study of His Word!
At Logos, we are all about the Bible and better access to it. We continually look for new and innovative ways to promote better Bible study and Bible knowledge. We don't stress out when trying bold new things, taking risks with prudence, and leading the way into uncharted waters. It is where we thrive, where we are exhilarated, and what gets us passionate about coming to work together on this incredible mission every day.
We believe that Bible study should be at the heart of the Christian life. It's our privilege to equip pastors, students, missionaries, teachers, and the church at large with tools that make Bible study easier and more accessible. We are completely committed to this mission, and no matter what else may come along, this mission will be our focus and our foundation.
You may have noticed that we are always pushing forward. It sometimes feels as though we have a million projects all going at once. We release new titles, projects, and websites on a regular basis. We keep trying new things. We never stand still, and never wait until something "has been denied a chance to be proven" to say "it didn't work".
This is one of those times.
You'll notice that the Pre-Pub page already says "Under Development". The reason for that is not that it has already covered its cost—far from it—the reason is that we are committed to making it happen, and it has actually been "Under Development" already for 5 years.
We have already spent tens upon tens of thousands of dollars in getting this project even to the point it is at now. Keep in mind, that cash was not a stack of "Pre-Pub" orders waiting to be processed someday—we're talking about an actual "stack O' cash" that we have already spent. Any Pre-Pub orders we take are just "reservations", the money we have put into this has already been spent, and much more will need to be spent before it is complete. Rest assured, we are taking a risk and we are putting ourselves out there in a big way on this massive, first-of-a-kind-ever project.
There are no guarantees in this for us, it is a major risk.
With those that are excited to jump in "with both feet" on this thrill-ride we are on, we form a relationship that is based on trust, risk and reward. This new commentary series represents not only the latest scholarship, the best coverage, and the most useable format, but it marks the first time the entire team of biblical scholars working on a commentary series has had the ability to use the latest Logos Bible Software tools and texts to prepare their volumes.
If you are a Logos user, you can imagine how powerful that last statement is. Sure, each scholar has a different level of experience with Logos and some may decide not to use it at all, but some of them are already power-users and others are just now getting their Logos 4 installed as a part of their preparation to begin their research. Would [insert your favorite commentary name here] have been better if all its authors had used Logos in their research?
So back to the risk and reward.
Remember, this is uncharted territory. The commentary is being written right now, but it doesn't yet exist. Obviously until we get further along, we will be unable to post sample pages, prefatory material, an editorial introduction, or anything else from the EEC. Quite simply because none of the volumes exist yet. Several are in the final stages of editing, but none are completely finished yet. Reviews don’t exist either for the same reason. Be assured that the moment this material is available for you to preview, we’ll post it.
The dates posted for each volume are estimated, but we fully expect to hit every date. Remember, the EEC has been in the works for awhile. Many of the volumes are well underway, and some are nearly finished. We’re already aware of many of the issues that arise when publishing a series like this and the time it takes to resolve them—and the estimated ship dates takes that into account.
So yes, there are some unknowns, and full completion of the series is still a few years away.
Internally, we had to decide whether we were going to go public, despite a few unknowns, or wait a few more months until all the details were worked out.
We decided to go public now and lower the Pre-Pub price much further than we planned. For users who are okay with pre-ordering without previews and reviews, we wanted to give them that option. We know that’s not for everyone—but we didn’t want to prevent anyone who might want to do it.
This is where the risk and reward really pays off for you.
As with other Pre-Pubs, the users who order the earliest get the best deal. With this Pre-Pub—with all the unknowns—we knew that this deal had to be really good. The current Pre-Pub price of $699.95 works out to around $15.91 per volume, which is far less than you’d pay for a similar print commentary.
As we get closer to the ship date, and as each new volume is shipped—as more of the unknowns become “knowns”—the price will go up. This Pre-Pub price takes those uncertainties into account. Those who order earliest and commit to the project despite some of the unknowns get the best price.
If you order now, and lock in the lowest price, and then change your mind later after seeing some previews and reading some reviews, we completely understand. Of course, we don’t think you’ll cancel after you see what’s coming—but you still have that option.
The best way to stay informed is to sign up for the EEC mailing list on the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary website. As soon as previews, reviews, and more are available, we’ll send out updates through the mailing list.
Do we have all the answers? Nope. Will we always take care of our customers? Yup.
So what about payment plans on something so unusual like this? Refunds? Release schedules? Did we think of that? Yes, we have thought a lot about all these issues and more, and instead of waiting for all the answers we decided to move ahead and get this going. We know how to take care of our customers, and I see points all throughout this thread that encourage me to think that our users are starting to be comfortable with that too. The Pre-Pub price is great and it rewards the early birds with very little risk when they can easily hit "cancel" the first moment it strikes their fancy.
Last, but definitely not least.
One last thing that I want to put on the table which some might not be considering. Think of the authors... this project is five years old already. Years ago authors were being recruited, getting excited, kept up to date on all the ups and downs of contract negotiation, publication schedules, and planning their sabbaticals, research teams and more. If you read the brief public history of the project you can imagine what kind of roller-coaster it has been for these scholars who already have so many other things to do in their life.
We are thrilled our authors are on board, and we want the excitement surrounding this project to be contagious. Remember, when it comes to the EEC, we're not talking about books written by people that lived 200 years ago. I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now. We want to reward these scholars' participation with the excitement, buzz, credibility and confidence that announcing the project and making the website a reality can bring them. I've already seen a few of the authors Tweet or write Facebook comments about their involvement.
Whether you are in or out, whether you plan to get this or not, as Richard noted earlier, this is a chance to get behind a series that can serve the church for years to come. Part of that is helping to get the buzz going and getting the word out, so spread the word!
I'll leave you with this final thought: It was really important to announce the series and post the Pre-Pub because it does take a long time to write a commentary series. We should all want the authors to be encouraged and believe "Hey, alright! This is really going to happen now! Hmm... I better get writing!"
[:D]
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Mike Pettit said:
I would like the "why" question clearly answered, why do we need a new commentary set? What will it add to what is already available and why will it add value?
I think that "new" is seriously overvalued, in itself it is actually bad rather than good to have soemthing new unless it is clear why it is improving on what is available, this project smacks of marketing rather than adding theological value.
I posted the following on the other thread where EEC is being discussed. Of course it doesn't answer your "why" question specifically about this commentary, but in general it does explain why there is sometimes the need for new commentaries:
Rosie Perera said:I came across this article the other day which has some helpful thoughts on the value of different commentary sets:
Varieties of the Biblical Commentary: A Guide to Form and Function (William B. Badke)
I'm not convinced yet that EEC will offer something so new and different from the combination of all the other sets I have already that it would be a must-have. I've ordered it for now, just to lock the price in, but I will be making a final decision before Volume 1 ships. Hopefully by then there will be some sample pages available, and perhaps some reviewers will have been given a preview peek at entire volumes.
This page will give you more of the "why" of this particular series. It seems there really was a felt need for something new back in 2005 when the series was first begun, not just a marketing ploy.
http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/
It might be that in the years since the project got off to a start and then derailed it's been superseded by other commentary sets which do its job equally well; I don't know. In any event, it appears to be attempting to fill a difficult niche: engaging with critical scholarship while maintaining an evangelical viewpoint. Usually you end up with one or the other. I think NICOT/NICNT does a pretty good job of walking the middle ground. But some of its volumes are already probably dated as far as critical scholarship is concerned. Among its 40 volumes, 6 were published in the 1970s, 11 in the 1980s.
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Dan Pritchett said:
These are exciting times we live in!
Dan while we appreciate the initial response and appreciate not all questions can be answered Richard makes a point that Logos really need to go back and look at if they want us as customers to get behind this project with open arms. There needs to be some sort of 6, 9 or 12 month payment plan on this project for us to seriously consider getting behind it. We do indeed live in exciting times, the best of times even, but also in another sense the worst of times.
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Dan,
Thanks for the detailed response.
Those of us who have been Logos customers for a few years know that Logos does not make an announcement without having given it much preparation and thought.
This certainly is a bold project. Anything that has never been tried before involves risk. While I was in publishing, I remember the excitement where the first information was being shared about the groundwork on some of the major translations and other projects that are available today.
The history of Logos has proven that you provide the best possible assurance of customer satisfaction.
I'm sure there will be an ongoing discussion as this project develops.
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Let me pause to take that in. You're right. In fact big projects should sometimes be tackled with gusto because they can be tackled with gusto. This is one of them, I'm sure of it.Dan Pritchett said:Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.
It's almost unfathomable. For this reason I would like to imagine that you've given each of the authors the entire 10,000 book catalog that Logos has available. Seriously. Don't just hook them up with Scholars platinum. Give them Logos unobtanium (<<like that?) so that we can reap the benefits.Dan Pritchett said:Sure, each scholar has a different level of experience with Logos and some may decide not to use it at all, but some of them are already power-users and others are just now getting their Logos 4 installed as a part of their preparation to begin their research. Would [insert your favorite commentary name here] have been better if all its authors had used Logos in their research?
What I'd like to hear more about is the way that E-publishing is going to provide for an even greater commentary than paper publishing. I don't mean in terms of shear Logos integration - not that I'm making light of it. But I'm talking about the way that the authors will feel more freedom in going ahead and typing that extra excursis out because they know there's room and it won't end up being cut just because it means more pages.
<tongue location="in cheek" amount="slightly"> Seriously that can't have been too hard of a choice for Logos, I've watched over the last few years how you have followed the release early, release often mantra. Heck we're living in it.</tongue>Dan Pritchett said:Internally, we had to decide whether we were going to go public, despite a few unknowns, or wait a few more months until all the details were worked out.
Dan Pritchett said:So what about payment plans on something so unusual like this? Refunds? Release schedules? Did we think of that? Yes, we have thought a lot about all these issues and more, and instead of waiting for all the answers we decided to move ahead and get this going. We know how to take care of our customers, and I see points all throughout this thread that encourage me to think that our users are starting to be comfortable with that too. The Pre-Pub price is great and it rewards the early birds with very little risk when they can easily hit "cancel" the first moment it strikes their fancy. So you've thought about it - but aren't clear on all the details? Hmm.... I know I should be wary when the Company doesn't have all the details ironed out. But you have a strong track record. Earlier I stated that I couldn't do it.
But I'm in.
I'm in for the very reason you intimate. By next April I'll know where my finances are, I'll know where these commentaries are going. And I'll know whether or not I'll need to click cancel. This is a different kind of prepub, it's already in because you're already in it.
I hate to have a volatile vote - but knowing that's the way it's going to work, I'm willing to get in early.
Dan Pritchett said:I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now. Hi! I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.
Rosie Perera said:In any event, it appears to be attempting to fill a difficult niche: engaging with critical scholarship while maintaining an evangelical viewpoint. Usually you end up with one or the other.
The part that really got me was... [quote]This commentary would uphold the Bible as God’s inspired Word, but it would be ready to engage in rigorous critical scholarship—the kind of scholarship respected in both evangelical and secular circles, and everywhere in between.
< http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/ >
With a starting foundation that God's word is God's word, the commentary already begins to fill a niche for me. I am in love with scholarship, but I am in love with God and his word first. This more than anything else about this series got me interested.
Andrew McKenzie said:Dan while we appreciate the initial response and appreciate not all questions can be answered Richard makes a point that Logos really need to go back and look at if they want us as customers to get behind this project with open arms. There needs to be some sort of 6, 9 or 12 month payment plan on this project for us to seriously consider getting behind it. We do indeed live in exciting times, the best of times even, but also in another sense the worst of times. I still want a payment plan Andrew. I don't know if one will be forthcoming. I do believe that in this case I at least have a known time frame for planning. I have seven months to start saving, though it's a bit optimistic to think that I'll be able to save the full amount by then. I'm just going to have to take the stance that I'll save what I can, read the releases as they come and make a decision before it costs me a $.
Edwin Bowden said:I'm sure there will be an ongoing discussion as this project develops.
Indeed, and it's my hope that not only Logos personnel but also perhaps some of the authors might provide dialogue. That would indeed make sure that these exciting times stay that way. Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I for one just don't think it's fair to ask us to pay full price for a product that likely won't be in our hands for as much as TEN YEARS. I don't know of anyone who does that. Why not subscribe and get charged the per book price, like a book club? If the development is already paid for why not? Why ask consumers to pay for something they won't see for TEN YEARS?
It's one thing to say "sign up for the project, you'll like the whole series even though you have to wait a long time to see it."That takes a little bit of thought and consideration. HOWEVER, it's another thing entirely to say "PAY FOR the entire series, it will be a very long time before you get it."
It's hard enough to see the project won't be done until the early 2020s, but to have paid for the whole thing AND not seen it....no thanks...
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Dan Pritchett said:
Yes, it really is a bold plan.
It is so bold, that no one in the traditional print publishing industry thought it could be done. I know what some of you are thinking... "The people reading this thread right now think it can't be done too!"
Yes it is a bold plan. I have only an inkling of the risk Logos is taking in doing it. But from what I understand of that risk, I appreciate and affirm what you're doing.
Thanks for the rest of your response too. I look forward to finding out more about this series, it's authors, and seeing a few hors d'ourves of material to keep me hungry for the first release in April, 2011 (or there abouts).
BTW, was your discussion about this thread this morning over espresso, or just plain americano. An anxious forum wants to know. [;)]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I wasn't going to getthis, but having read this thread and dan's note, i subscribed to the pre-pub--mostly as an offering to further helpful work. I'd rather the authors take the time to write right than to feel a need to push out product. It would be nice to space out thebill though--that will be a chuck ofchange for what my spouse will see as one computerfile [:S] [:D]
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A great idea in advancing biblical studies--Yes. A strong set of contributors--Yes. A reasonable overall price--Not bad. Planning to reach publication deadlines into the future--Hopeful. Initial outlay of cash--painful. It is hard to face the purchase of a $700.00 commentary on the release of the first voulme. I realize that the pain will go away as time goes on (they say tme heals all wounds). It would be nice if there were additional consideration for those who might jump in early. Perhaps a partial charge against an account on an annual basis until the entire $700.00 is reached. If the series will be delivered over the course of ten years, provide a payment plan over five years with a promise to stay with the project until the end. The customer gains some consideration and Logos gains some advantage. Perhaps everyone gains?
The water may look fine right now, but I think it is too cold to jump in. I hope that Logos will warm up the pool so I can jump in. The promise of learning from the promised authors is exciting, but the initial outlay brings expectations that perhaps I should seek out these men and women in the heavenly kingdom an listen to their insights into the Scripture.
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Funny, but true. It is just the reverse of Logos giving us a resource and offering an interest free payment plan. Something they have done many times.Edwin Bowden said:
This set is a payment plan in reverse: We pay up front and hope to get the volumes over the next decade!In addition to the history making changes in publishing, this represents several new developments within the Logos marketing plan.
1) For those who have the various "incomplete" commentay sets in Logos (Anchor Yale Bible, Pillar New Testament Commentary, Cornerstone Biblical Commentary) it will be a real pleasure to receive the volumes as published without a $30~40 hit per title.
2) I am very grateful to have purchased the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle (87 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5656 as a Pre-Pub. It was difficult to make the outright purchase but well worth it. Several people wanted the Zondervan titles released as they were completed but still enjoy the maximum savings of the complete collection, not realizing the licensing agreement did not facilitate that option. With ECC we have the individual titles released as they are completed. We still get the super Pre-Pub price but have to pay it upfront.I am understanding of all the points raised in this thread. Some of us will not be on this planet in 2019. (My personal life expectancy gets "iffy" by that date.) As long as the license is transferable I think it is a great investment. As Richard just said, we are building something that will outlast our lives and bless the church for the next century.
All that said, it would be very helpful if Logos could set up a "layaway" account we could begin paying into to address these large Pre-Pub orders when they roll out. I already have the Anchor Yale Reference in Pre-Pub. (It is helpful to have a firm billing date for ECC. I wish all large Pre-Pubs were announced well in advance. Gottengin Septuagint is a good start. http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4951 )
I just don't understand why it will take 9 more years when there are multiple authors involved. Can't they all be working on their respective volumes at the same time? If they have commitments for the next 5 years before they can start, are they not being presumptuous to a fault? I am probably showing my ignorance of the publishing industry but the old fashioned subscription model was a check-kiting scheme.< Volume one was shipped and the profits were channeled to future volumes> The ECC http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7565 model is different, actually Biblical Luke 14:28~31 , like the rest of Logos Pre-Pubs.Thomas Black said:
Let me pause to take that in. You're right. In fact big projects should sometimes be tackled with gusto because they can be tackled with gusto. This is one of them, I'm sure of it.Dan Pritchett said:Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.
I think this is worthwhile and although I don't think Evangelical & Critical Scholarship are mutually exclusive terms, I think adding this to NICOT/NICNT http://www.logos.com/products/details/5184 & Word Biblical Commentary http://www.logos.com/products/details/3671 will help the church. Even if I don't live to see the last volume...........................
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I just don't understand why it will take 9 more years when there are multiple authors involved. Can't they all be working on their respective volumes at the same time?
I wondered the same thing. But I suppose it comes down to the bandwidth of the editorial team. Three of the volumes haven't even been assigned authors yet, and assuming some of the authors are committed for the next year or so and can't finish their respective volume for four or five years, the editors will have to carefully review each volume for consistency, etc. At 44 volumes, suppose it takes them a month per volume to review, we're talking another four years there. And then there's all the Logos mark-up. I can certainly see it taking 7-9 years to get them all done. They are probably wise in allowing plenty of time.
I recently participated as a contributor to the Encyclopedia of Christian Literature, which ended up being a two-volume, 700+ page tome by the time it was done. It was a big eye-opener for me about what-all goes into producing a major reference work. I initially was signed on to the project in May 2007, but it had already been underway since at least October 2004 (the date when the prospectus document they sent me was created). I finished my submission by August 2007. It was initially promised to be published in late 2007, but that date kept slipping and it finally didn't see the light of day until 2010. I honestly don't know what caused all the delay. Part of it was probably due to some incompetence somewhere along the chain. But all this just to say that "things happen" in the publishing world. People get sick or die or don't finish what they were supposed to finish, things get reassigned to new writers, editors, etc.
So...I'm glad they are being honest up front that it's going to take a long time rather than promising it all in 2014 and then disappointing us for five years. Then again, I hope they don't disappoint us after we've waited 9 years for it... But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.
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Rosie Perera said:
But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.
Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...
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I also have the Anchor Yale Reference Library and the Gottengin Septuagint on prepub, so I might as well get this one too. I don't know if I will have the funds available when the first volume is released, but as least I have time to save.
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Thomas Black said:
Hi! I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.Dan Pritchett said:I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now.
Likewise. And I hope the authors that are reading the forums are learning all kinds of awesome things they can do with Logos that will help them in their efforts. For example, someone recently just asked about using visual filters to color all the Eissfeldt sources and I answered. While that might not be something contemporary scholarship is still doing massive amounts of work with, it still might come in handy for a commentary author.
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Dominick Sela said:Rosie Perera said:
But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.
Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...
The sum of all the "tidbits" costs $700. And I agree that an alternative in the form of a payment plan would be in order. I was just pointing out that for those who do plunge in at the beginning, the fact that a few volumes will be released each year will help keep them from getting antsy about the finishing of the entire series, even if the money has already gone out of their accounts.
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