A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!

13

Comments

  • Wilson Hines
    Wilson Hines Member Posts: 434 ✭✭

    Can somebody explain this marketing jargon for me?: "New standard in evangelical research"  - Exactly what does this mean?   That is a broad brush comment, IMHO. Will these scholars take an approach, method, or use of technology that will make this commentary an evolutionary jump over the NIC or WCC? 



    Wilson Hines

  • TCBlack
    TCBlack Member Posts: 10,980 ✭✭✭

    Can somebody explain this marketing jargon for me?: "New standard in evangelical research"  - Exactly what does this mean?   That is a broad brush comment, IMHO. Will these scholars take an approach, method, or use of technology that will make this commentary an evolutionary jump over the NIC or WCC?

    Wilson,

    I believe it's a marketing goal.  Nobody can make something to be that standard, but they can certainly write and labor to the end that what they produce fits the requirements for that standard.  I guess the question is, what is the definition of the standard?  That would be the best way to clarify the goals of the EEC.

    Like you, I'd appreciate more commentary about this commentary from the commentators.

     

    Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

  • williamvarner
    williamvarner Member Posts: 32 ✭✭

    I speak for myself. I do not speak for Logos or for the other commentators.

    I own around a thousand commentaries and have used commentaries from every major series, so I know something about their format and purpose. No commentary is totally unique and anyone who says that is foolish or lying. While there may be a bit of marketing rhetoric in the announcement by Logos about the EEC, I do think that it will make a special contribution to the genre.

    Commentaries are sometimes (1) simply a collection of word studies strung together, oftentimes with little or no sense of how it all fits together. Commentaries are also (2) simply comments on other commentaries. ("Here are the views and who holds them. Now here is the correct interpretation - mine.")  

    I know that sounds a bit jaded and cynical, but those who have used commentaries extensively will, I think, agree with my general observations. Furthermore, most cmmentaries do little application of the passage or make any effort toward helping the expositor prepare the passage for preaching and teaching.  Usually the expoisitor has to read (1)  a technical language based  commentary, (2) an expository commentary, and (3) a devotional commentary to get the help he/she really desires.

    Again, I speak for myself, but I see my task in approaching each passage, to (1) describe the overall structure of the paragraph; (2) to provide exegetical notes on the lexical and semantic details of the passage, and (3) to offer suggestions about the real meaning of the passage for life along with ideas about an  expository outline for presenting the passage orally.

    As to the tools for this analysis, Logos has an abundance of them, although they have not insisted that we use this or that in Logos to accomplish these goals. I appreciate the way in which they have tried to communicate to us the overall goals of the commentary, but allowed us freedom in how to accomplish those goals.

    The digital format will allow for hyper-text links and other means that can only be accomplished in that format. The way in which Logos does that with existing commentaries should illustrate what I mean.

    If  the EEC accomplishes those goals in its overall thrust and also in each individual commentary remains to be seen, but I personally am quite excited to be part of the effort.

    Now, while I would love to be part of this continuing conversation, please do not ask me to answer specific questions to answer. I have my courses and my preaching to attend to for the next months. Oh, yes, there is that small matter of the commentary on James too!

     

  • Wilson Hines
    Wilson Hines Member Posts: 434 ✭✭

    To all, thanks for this thread.  Thomas, I have so many mixed emotions about this topic I can't even begin to start.  

    Over all:  I don't like commentaries.  I said over all.  The reason is I think way to many people rely on them like crutches.  My goal in working with the scripture is that I will become familiar with the text in English and then in it's original language, as much as possible.  I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself, and then we move forward.  In other words, what does other passages say about this passage with which I am working.  I use commentaries to figure out whether or not my exegesis is consistent with reality.  I rarely get taught much by a commentary.  I think that is a shame.  I didn't say I never get taught anything.  I am just saying I rarely get taught much.  A tool like the ABD has been more valuable to me than anything in my library as far as none linguistic resources.

    The single resources which I get the most frequent and most valuable "hits" from is the Expositor's Greek Testament, and this is in hardback on my shelf. The E.G.T is technically a commentary, I guess, but more of a background on what is going on with the language, IMHO.  I get "WOW" moments in this resource.  I don't understand why it has taken so long for this product to move in the pre-pub system.  

    Anyway, I am wary of commentaries.  The scholars involved with this work is the reason why I am comforted.   Admittedly, I'm not looking for a work that pastor's or laymen would desire.  And if this is what this is, I still am not certain I am going to buy the E.E.C. (Hence, the reason we need samples).

    On the "expanding my horizons" front:  I hope when I attend Dallas Theological that they will either put the nail in the coffin with commentaries for me, or make me want to use them properly.  

    After rambling about all of this, after reading this thread and consulting with my sales guy, I have intrepidly signed up for the pre-pub.  I hope my wife doesn't find out the stipulations of this pre-pub, as I may get thrown a pillow and blanky!  Quite frankly, under the guise of the same known hurdles, if the name Logos wasn't involved and it was Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, or whomever, we would be raving idiots whom could rightfully so be accused of financial stupidity - and everybody here, including the Pritchetts know this to be true.

    So much for "I'll pray about it."  LOL  I guess I will pull the trigger, due to the raising price, and pray about it along the way, asking God for wisdom for an unemployed, full time student, whose wife could find him worth more dead (life insurance) than alive.  Don't get me wrong, my couch is really comfortable LOL. 

    Wilson Hines

  • TCBlack
    TCBlack Member Posts: 10,980 ✭✭✭

    I only quote the later portion, But Wilson, I swear we're brothers and our wives are sisters.  'nuff said. 

    after reading this thread and consulting with my sales guy, I have intrepidly signed up for the pre-pub. I hope my wife doesn't find out the stipulations of this pre-pub, as I may get thrown a pillow and blanky! Quite frankly, under the guise of the same known hurdles, if the name Logos wasn't involved and it was Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, or whomever, we would be raving idiots whom could rightfully so be accused of financial stupidity - and everybody here, including the Pritchetts know this to be true.
     
    So much for "I'll pray about it." LOL I guess I will pull the trigger, due to the raising price, and pray about it along the way, asking God for wisdom for an unemployed, full time student, whose wife could find him worth more dead (life insurance) than alive. Don't get me wrong, my couch is really comfortable LOL.

    LOL indeed.

    Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

     I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself,

    Quite a healthy outlook.  I do encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

    Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your wife, or even a commentator.

    "I'll pray about it."

        Keep praying about it even after the order is in. If God wants you to have it He will ultimately be the one who provides the funds to purchase it.  And if Logos keeps up the Pre-Pub flood, my kneecaps will resemble a hippo's.

     

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    Jonathan said:

    I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

    I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

    I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

    Jonathan expresses my thoughts too.

    I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

     

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • Bohuslav Wojnar
    Bohuslav Wojnar Member Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭

     I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself,

    Quite a healthy outlook.  I do encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

    Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your wife, or even a commentator.

    "I'll pray about it."

        Keep praying about it even after the order is in. If God wants you to have it He will ultimately be the one who provides the funds to purchase it.  And if Logos keeps up the Pre-Pub flood, my kneecaps will resemble a hippo's.

     

     

    I really like your analogy Matthew. I do not see commentaries as crutches but as broadening of the circle God can use to speak to me. It happens some times, I read them in expectation all the time [:)]. Sometimes God speaks to us through lexicon like TWOT [:O] ...very often he speaks to me through my wife (what is obvious since the time of Abraham - Gen 21:12 [:)] ).

     

    Bohuslav

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want,

    If you bought NICOT/NICNT for $600 or WBC for $300 in Pre-Pub, you'd be skipping through this forum thread. [:P] 

    I'm still weighing my purchase decision on EEC. I've settled a few points others are still wrestling with.

    • I have no problem with the production side of the project. I know Logos will fulfill their responsibilities. (Remember how fast the Zondervan collection was completed after the announcement?)
    • I am familiar with many of the names slated to write individual commentaries and trust their abilities.
    • The Pre-Pub price is well within reason for what I am offered.
    • If the project is not completed in my lifetime, at least others will benefit from my purchase.

    without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.

    • I even have a different outlook on this speed bump. When I consult BestCommentaries<dot>com I notice not every volume of the premier sets rates at the top. This can be attributed to multiple authors as well as authors writing outside their area of expertise. If the EEC gives us a first look at a stellar volume it will not be a guarantee all subsequent volumes will be stellar. If the first look disappoints you it could lead to you canceling out on better volumes to follow.  Just a thought.

    I would rather Pre-Pub the whole EEC at the intro price than wait ten years and buy the volumes at $70 a piece. 

    The hardest part of committing is, as my mom would say about my plate of food at Thanksgiving Dinner, "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach." Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? [:S]

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Wilson Hines
    Wilson Hines Member Posts: 434 ✭✭

    So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want,

    If you bought NICOT/NICNT for $600 or WBC for $300 in Pre-Pub, you'd be skipping through this forum thread. Stick out tongue 

    I'm still weighing my purchase decision on EEC. I've settled a few points others are still wrestling with.

    • I have no problem with the production side of the project. I know Logos will fulfill their responsibilities. (Remember how fast the Zondervan collection was completed after the announcement?)
    • I am familiar with many of the names slated to write individual commentaries and trust their abilities.
    • The Pre-Pub price is well within reason for what I am offered.
    • If the project is not completed in my lifetime, at least others will benefit from my purchase.

    without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.

    • I even have a different outlook on this speed bump. When I consult BestCommentaries<dot>com I notice not every volume of the premier sets rates at the top. This can be attributed to multiple authors as well as authors writing outside their area of expertise. If the EEC gives us a first look at a stellar volume it will not be a guarantee all subsequent volumes will be stellar. If the first look disappoints you it could lead to you canceling out on better volumes to follow.  Just a thought.

    I would rather Pre-Pub the whole EEC at the intro price than wait ten years and buy the volumes at $70 a piece. 

    The hardest part of committing is, as my mom would say about my plate of food at Thanksgiving Dinner, "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach." Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? Tongue Tied

     

     

    Todd you hit the nail on the head.  The pre-pub people at Logos need to have better timing.  I know they would be smarter by releasing those pre-pubs out once a week for 10 weeks or 15 weeks (for example), even thought they finished all 10 of them on the very same day.  Why?  Because I want all of them.  When they go to rapid firing, I am going to cancel some of it.  The other way, they successfully get all the transactions, instead of one or two or maybe three.  IMHO.  

    Wilson Hines

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Matthew wrote:   Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? Tongue Tied  
    (I don't want to speak for Todd, even tho" he would be wise to agree with me. [;)] )

    Todd you hit the nail on the head.  The pre-pub people at Logos need to have better timing.  I know they would be smarter by releasing those pre-pubs out once a week for 10 weeks or 15 weeks (for example), even thought they finished all 10 of them on the very same day.  Why?  Because I want all of them.  When they go to rapid firing, I am going to cancel some of it.  The other way, they successfully get all the transactions, instead of one or two or maybe three.  IMHO.  

    I agree with you Wilson. I would make one adjustment to your proposal: Offer a monthly transaction date for those of us who are constrained in that fashion.

    side thought: The rate 401k and mutual fund performance has been these last few years, we would all be ahead to cash out and buy everything Logos!          .......  donchaThink?

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Simon’s Brother
    Simon’s Brother Member Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭

    Over all:  I don't like commentaries.  I said over all.  The reason is I think way to many people rely on them like crutches.  My goal in working with the scripture is that I will become familiar with the text in English and then in it's original language, as much as possible.  I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself, and then we move forward.  In other words, what does other passages say about this passage with which I am working.  I use commentaries to figure out whether or not my exegesis is consistent with reality.

    Wilson I share some of your philosophy,  in that in the first instance we should be not relying up on secondary sources but going straight to the primary source.   Whether one is a layperson, a preacher or a scholar of the original languages, our primary focus should be upon God's Word.  We can become lazy and rely upon secondary sources without first getting acquainted with the scriptures for ourselves. 

    For the layperson they make their minister's preaching as there primary examination of the text. A sermon as good as the preacher may be, is a secondary source.  Even when we have a minister of the Word whom we know preachers the whole scripture, and nothing but the scripture, faithfully and is prepared to say the things we'd rather not hear, I think the layperson is missing out on so much if they don't learn how to read and ask questions of the text themselves. They may well run into questions they can't answer and that is then where secondary sources  come into to play;  combination of preaching, discussion within a bible study group, and a good commentary and bible dictionary. If preacher's and scholars aren't getting into the text for themselves but simply relying on someone else's work.... perish the thought.

    Quite a healthy outlook.  I do
    encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of
    the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness
    of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After
    all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend
    there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and
    later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with
    us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

    Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person
    who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your
    wife, or even a commentator.

    On the other side of the scales you have balanced out things very well Matthew.  There is still an important place for a variety of secondary sources in our lives.  We  though always should examine them up in light of the scriptures to expose any mistruth they may contain. But if they pass that test - then we should take them into consideration our journey of understanding the scriptures and getting to know our Lord and Saviour, so that we might better bring Glory to our God.

     

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    John Dyer, the editor of BestCommentaries.com, has posted his thoughts about it on his blog, Don't Eat the Fruit. It's an interesting blog I've been following for a while, "about the the role of technology in the redemptive movement from the Garden to the City. I believe technology is an amazing testament to the creativity embedded in the imago dei, but instead of assuming technology is always a neutral tool, I believe it - like culture in general - profoundly influences us."

  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,822

    John Dyer, the editor of BestCommentaries.com, has posted his thoughts about it on his blog, Don't Eat the Fruit.

    Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out. One issue that was raised by a commenter was that this electronic version would seem to be limited to Logos-only format, as it seems it will be. No availability for other software and since there will be only abridged print editions, no way to own this commentary except in Logos. VERY proprietary. Also very risky. Instead of trying to use as many channels as possible to increase sales, you strip it down to one channel alone.

    Print-only publishers did his for years and Kindle, et. al. have pushed that model out the window. The model being tried here is digital only (abridged print, whatever that will mean) and Logos only. Very restrictive. Wise? HMMM. Jury's out. I hope it works, but doubt it would be a model we'd like other publishers to follow. (BTW: I have no problem with digital-only, just Logos-only.)

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Alex Scott
    Alex Scott Member Posts: 718 ✭✭

    Jonathan said:

    I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

    I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

    I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

    Jonathan expresses my thoughts too.

    I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

    OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here.  Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?

    Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out

    I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... [:)]

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

    OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here.  Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?

    Alex,

    I really don't think I suggested either of those options, and who said anything about more for less?  I'd pay for individual volumes just like I can with many other commentaries in Logos.

    I was just asking why individual volumes are never going to be sold (according to to the website). I can buy individual NICNT volumes in print--can't Logos do the same in digital?  Did something I say offend you?

    EDIT: Perhaps I've misunderstood the website, but I took the statement "The EEC is only available as a set. The commentaries are not available for individual purchase." to be absolute, but perhaps it should only be understood as applying to the preorder time period, and they'll allow individual purchases after release? Maybe I need to be set straight on this point.  Thoughts?

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • Simon’s Brother
    Simon’s Brother Member Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭

    Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out

    I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... Smile

    Thanks for bringing up this blog.  I have come across if before.  It focuses on things that I am passionate about so I've just added it to my google reader account.

     

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... Smile

    Thanks for bringing up this blog.  I have come across if before.  It focuses on things that I am passionate about so I've just added it to my google reader account.

    Glad to know you're passionate about these things. You might enjoy my blog, too, then. Faith & Technology: http://blog.faithandtechnology.org. Unfortunately, I've been so busy with Logos testing and MVP-ing for the past few months that I haven't been blogging as actively. But I hope to get back to it more regularly once I feel Logos is finally up to a level where I can just use it and not keep stumbling upon things I need to report to them.

  • Simon’s Brother
    Simon’s Brother Member Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭
  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    (BTW: I have no problem with digital-only, just Logos-only.)

    One issue that was raised by a commenter was that this electronic version would seem to be limited to Logos-only format, as it seems it will be.

    If Logos is footing the entire bill to bring it to fruition, why should they share the bounty at harvest? The other software companies started this "exclusive rights" thing. Maybe Logos is assembling some bargaining chips to trade a few  "exclusives" back and forth, (- say, EEC for John Philips Commentaries & Complete Biblical Library?)

    OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here.  Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?

                   <edit note: Alex was asking Todd why individual volumes should be made available>
    Alex, I did not read Todd's post that way at all. But I could see how you'd take issue with that idea. I would too.

    I was just asking why individual volumes are never going to be sold (according to to the website). I can buy individual NICNT volumes in print--can't Logos do the same in digital?

    I don't think you can purchase each volume of NICNT individually, can you? And at what price would you? But I said earlier, it appears Logos is committed to the whole EEC project. They don't want to add a few individual volumes, hodge-podge, here and there. So they offer, beg & coax us to get with the program and reward those who do. Nobody is forcing is to buy it.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    I don't think you can purchase each volume of NICNT individually, can you? And at what price would you?

    Since you asked, here are a couple I'd buy if I still bought paper commentaries:

    http://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Romans-International-Commentary-Testament/dp/0802823173

    http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Philippians-International-Commentary-Testament/dp/0802825117

    Nobody is forcing is to buy it.

    Nope. I'm just pointing out that they will just get my money if they offer the individual volumes eventually.

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • M.J.D.
    M.J.D. Member Posts: 36 ✭✭

    This thread has now gone to seven pages and I have not read them all. Hopefully I'm not duplicating what someone else has already pointed out but there is a blog post by John Dyer over at Don't Eat the Fruit that touches on this new series and what it might portend for the future of research and digital books.

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    This thread has now gone to seven pages and I have not read them all. Hopefully I'm not duplicating what someone else has already pointed out but there is a blog post by John Dyer over at Don't Eat the Fruit that touches on this new series and what it might portend for the future of research and digital books.

    Yep, there's some discussion of it on the previous page (6), if you're interested in reading it.

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Since you asked, here are a couple I'd buy if I still bought paper commentaries:

    I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about individual digital volumes of NICNT. 

    Nope. I'm just pointing out that they will just get my money if they offer the individual volumes eventually.

    Another analogy (sorry MJ) : Sometimes I need a socket wrench. I frequently lose sockets when my 2 year old helps me..... After enough of them go missing I need to decide whether it is better to buy a new set or replace the missing sockets individually. I will never need extra sockets sized 3/32  but I save money buying the whole set.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,762

    Another analogy (sorry MJ) :

    Hey, this one works ... but you haven't given your 2-year-old their own set yet?[;)]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    Another analogy (sorry MJ) : Sometimes I need a socket wrench. I frequently lose sockets when my 2 year old helps me..... After enough of them go missing I need to decide whether it is better to buy a new set or replace the missing sockets individually. I will never need extra sockets sized 3/32  but I save money buying the whole set.

    Yes, but the analogy breaks in many ways: one socket set is like another so there's no mystery as to what you'd get, plus the socket set costs less than $100, and you'd get the whole set at once--not a few a year for the next decade, and if you've already got one socket set, you probably wouldn't buy a second set to compare how they work (assuming the set already contained both metric and SAE sockets) without being convinced that the second set had distinct advantages.

    I already own many socket sets in Logos.[:D]

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • Alan Macgregor
    Alan Macgregor Member Posts: 2,438 ✭✭✭

    iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

    MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

    iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1

    iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Gotcha Todd!

    I already own many socket sets in Logos.Big Smile

    WHY do you own more than one set? Whatever motivated you to get multiple sets already, should also work towards selling you on the EEC.

    (Please come on board. I need to tell my wife "Everybody else is buying it.")

    I

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Friedrich
    Friedrich MVP Posts: 4,772

    I need to tell my wife "Everybody else is buying it.

    include me

    I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

  • Simon’s Brother
    Simon’s Brother Member Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭

    I need to tell my wife "Everybody else is buying it.

    include me

    But sweetheart,  everyone else is getting it,  there's Bob, and Jack, you remember Jack, and of course there's Matthew and Dan, and ... oh the list is too long...I just gotta get it,  and all the cool Pastors are getting it too... now you don't want me to be uncool do you ?  Please, I'll remember our anniversary till at least 2019 without your prompting..... tell you what when each new volume ships I'll even buy you flowers and a box of chocolates and we can spend sometime together reading the new volume......

     

  • Ronald Quick
    Ronald Quick Member Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭

    I'm in - but I haven't told my wife yet.  I figure I have until April to convince her.

  • Rich DeRuiter
    Rich DeRuiter MVP Posts: 6,729

    I'm in - but I haven't told my wife yet.  I figure I have until April to convince her.

    If you put it on your credit card, you have until the statement comes - probably May, maybe even June. [;)]

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

  • Eric Weiss
    Eric Weiss Member Posts: 948 ✭✭✭

    Well, I just convinced myself to pre-order, even though now my pre-pub orders total more than I paid for Logos Platinum, I think. [:)

    Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,586

    now my pre-pub orders total more than I paid for Logos Platinum,

    Congratulations. You are now an official Logosaholic! [:D]

  • Jeff Straub
    Jeff Straub Member Posts: 1 ✭✭

    I sent a long email to Logos about this proposal. Several things come to mind, much of which has already been written. But let me enter the fray

    Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing . . . yes, they have done a lot of cranking stuff out that has been written and published by others but taking stuff through the initial editorial process not so much. What do they know about this? They will scream loudly that they are hardly amateurs, but take Dan's last comment as a case in point. He hopes that by showing their seriousness, it will get the writers to speed up . . . Like Eerdmans couldn't get the NIC contributers and T& T Clark couldn't get the ICC guys and Word couldn't get the WBC guys to speed up, what because their writers didn't think the publishers were seriously committed to the projects--their respective series? The reality is that life happens. Scholars die, get sick, get sacked, get . . . you fill in the blank. Wayne House is writing on 4 books . . . sure Philemon should be "easy" but Corinthians? In ten years? Like he is planning not to sleep?

    It would be nice to see the proposed format of one, just one commentary. What is it the authors are supposed to do with their commentaries? Technical lexical stuff? Exegetical stuff? From the hype, I see nothing on the proposed content or format. There is a big difference between a TNTC and a BEC and a NIGTC and a NIC commentary. I mean Bock wrote two whole large volumes on Luke. What is there left for Porter to say?[:D]

    An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that? No prof would allow a student to use it at any reputable seminary. But the digital will be in accessible because you cannot put it in the library, so if you cannot buy it, you cannot use it. No writer can afford to BUY everything they cite and no serious writer would cite an abridgment. So a print abridgment is of little value.

    Some of the commentators are not even assigned. Unless God is on the staff of Logos and has made his mind known, not even Logos can guarantee the aggressive timetable. I talked with on friend who considered participating but decided against it because of the overly aggressive time-table.[8-|][N]

    I think Logos needs to rethink the $700 up front part of this. I wrote to Bill Barrick about my concerns and he replied that "the early bird gets the worm." Well . . . I don't eat worms. And I am also reluctant to "buy a pig in a poke" (sack) for you less literate types.

    I love Logos . . . but I am not sold on this 

    Jeff Straub

  • Paul N
    Paul N Member Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭

    Pig-in-a-poke has a great wikipedia article

    ... I must be a little rusty on my Late Middle Ages English

  • Friedrich
    Friedrich MVP Posts: 4,772

    You have put a lot of thought into this.  The only comment I feel even 5% qualified is regarding:

    An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that?

    I would think there'd be a lot of "lay Bible students" etc who'd love a nice recent commentary, especially with all the technical stuff removed.  Especially if they (Logos) deliver on the application part of the commentary.  Just saying, it doesn't seem outlandish.

    I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

  • Todd Phillips
    Todd Phillips Member Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭

    You have put a lot of thought into this.  The only comment I feel even 5% qualified is regarding:

    An abridged print form? You gotta be kidding . . . who would use that?

    I would think there'd be a lot of "lay Bible students" etc who'd love a nice recent commentary, especially with all the technical stuff removed.  Especially if they (Logos) deliver on the application part of the commentary.  Just saying, it doesn't seem outlandish.

    True.  But inability of libraries to shelve the full commentaries is a good point, and it seems it would marginalize the set if the unabridged text is only available in Logos.  Of course Logos might have future plans for these issues that they haven't shared with us yet.

    MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540

  • Paul N
    Paul N Member Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭

     

    Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing . . .

    I don't believe there are amateurs in the commentary publishing business.  I believe there can be professionals that take plenty of hard knock lessons whilst they produce commentaries but the "amateurs" are probably less inclined to make it past gathering the writers and developing the content"

    It would be nice to see the proposed format of one, just one commentary. What is it the authors are supposed to do with their commentaries? Technical lexical stuff? Exegetical stuff? From the hype, I see nothing on the proposed content or format. There is a big difference between a TNTC and a BEC and a NIGTC and a NIC commentary. I mean Bock wrote two whole large volumes on Luke. What is there left for Porter to say?Big Smile

    Its possible over 16,000 fans on facebook and many others want to see a less solely technical lexical and a more applicative commentary.  Of course many commentaries have attempted this very formula, I believe the EEC would be one to recommend straight to the church members instead of stopping at the well trained pastor or leader.

    Some of the commentators are not even assigned. Unless God is on the staff of Logos and has made his mind known, not even Logos can guarantee the aggressive timetable.

    The series was already underway before Logos became involved.  I would assume some of the material is in the editorial process or beyond.

    and maybe I missed it but I was curious as to your proposal Jeff, was there something you thought maybe Logos could change on as they move forward?

     

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing .

    There is a difference in digital publishing and traditional publishing. The old guard must change with the times or die. We saw Nelson undergo a big shakeup in company leadership earlier this year. Traditional publishers have been abandoning the big projects as too expensive and risky. It is not just an EEC thing.
    Logos is THE leader in publishing digital commentaries. No one else comes close. Logos has been successful because they watch, listen and adapt to meet the needs of the moment. You have to concede NIC, ICC, WBC and all the other fine commentaries are MORE useful in the Logos format than they are in hard copy form. My favorite lexicographer, Oreste Vaccari, had a motto: "To do better what others do well." This is what I see Logos doing every day of every year. They take something good and make it better. I would put my money on Logos to actually be able to pull off this ambitious EEC project better than any of the traditional publishers could. Bob Pritchett has shown he can chase a dream into reality and Dale and Dan Pritchett know how to sell others on the dream. If it is going to get done, it will be done by Logos.


    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Edwin Bowden
    Edwin Bowden Member Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭


    Logos is an amateur at publishing, at least commentary publishing .

    There is a difference in digital publishing and traditional publishing. The old guard must change with the times or die. We saw Nelson undergo a big shakeup in company leadership earlier this year. Traditional publishers have been abandoning the big projects as too expensive and risky. It is not just an EEC thing.
    Logos is THE leader in publishing digital commentaries. No one else comes close. Logos has been successful because they watch, listen and adapt to meet the needs of the moment. You have to concede NIC, ICC, WBC and all the other fine commentaries are MORE useful in the Logos format than they are in hard copy form. My favorite lexicographer, Oreste Vaccari, had a motto: "To do better what others do well." This is what I see Logos doing every day of every year. They take something good and make it better. I would put my money on Logos to actually be able to pull off this ambitious EEC project better than any of the traditional publishers could. Bob Pritchett has shown he can chase a dream into reality and Dale and Dan Pritchett know how to sell others on the dream. If it is going to get done, it will be done by Logos.



    In Dan P's post about the EEC, he admitted that they didn't have all the answers, but were committed to making the project work. Logos has a proven track record and I am confident that they will do what is necessary to make this project work for everyone involved. They are real pioneers. When mistakes are made, they admit it and find another solution.

  • Scott Lumsden
    Scott Lumsden Member Posts: 5 ✭✭

    Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series. 

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series. 

    Scott, as you might imagine, people with a wide variety of positions on Genesis use Logos BIble Software and read the forums, so by asking a question like that you're inviting theological debate, which isn't helpful on the forums and is actually strongly discouraged by Logos who hosts these forums. Many people likely agree with you, but nobody is supposed to be voicing such opinions here. It's unfortunate we can't have that kind of discussion to help people decide whether they want to buy this resource or not. But I'm sure there will be some of folks for whom that characteristic of the volume's author is a selling point. It is still a very live issue among some evangelicals.

  • Scott Lumsden
    Scott Lumsden Member Posts: 5 ✭✭

    I see your point Rosie and get it that Logos does not want theological debate to cloud its product. i even somewhat agree that that's a good policy. But that made more sense when they were publishing other people's works. Logos is making a decision with this series to step into the world of Christian publishing by offering original work. The difference between publishing others work in digital form and publishing your own work means that you've made editorial decisions and are indeed promoting a position. I have no problem with Logos doing this, in fact I'm quite supportive and even excited that they've made this step. My point here is that at this point, Logos can't have it both ways. They can't say, "Hey, this is a landmark event of evangelical scholarship" and then not receive some comment from their constituency about what others think about content because they're now (for the first time) responsible for content.  

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Is anyone else just a little concerned that the Genesis commentator is a creationist. I must be more out of touch than I thought with the evangelical take on genesis. or maybe there are different stands of evangelical thought. the electronic series is bold, i'll give them that. i'm just concerned about the scholarship. if they invite a literalist to write on Genesis, what does that say about the rest of the series. 

     

    Hi Scott,

    We won't settle the Creation question, virgin birth, bodily resurrection or even the existence of eternal, literal punishment in a forum debate. So we can abandon that goal. Your question has another underlying question we can address, and already have several times. That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.

    I have been treated by very brilliant medical doctors who hold to religions that I find bordering on the ridiculous. (I refuse to enumerate the long lists of things I find unbelievable about their dearly held beliefs.) Their naivete in spiritual matters did not prevent them from very ably addressing my biological needs. Had I marginalized them because of my differences I would have lost out on their help.

    While I do not hold the same disdain for the viewpoints of the EEC authors I would consider hearing their points even if I did disagree with them. There is hardly a consensus of theological matters across the board with the present scholarly commentaries in print. My response to the divergent views expressed could be to mock them, or attack them, or avoid them like a disease. Or I could read them and become aware of why they hold to their viewpoints. Caveat: An open mind can sometimes be changed. So if our goal is to remain in the place we presently find ourselves, it takes nothing more than blindfolds and earplugs.  It all comes back to our answer to the question in blue stated above. Can we learn from people we disagree with? Do they have anything worthwhile to teach us? Have we considered & addressed their points to our satisfaction? Can nothing new be learned? The true spirit of scholarship is asking the questions with an open mind.

    Welcome to the forums.

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    you've made editorial decisions and are indeed promoting a position. I have no problem with Logos doing this, in fact I'm quite supportive and even excited that they've made this step. My point here is that at this point, Logos can't have it both ways.

    Logos has not wavered off the same spot they have been standing in from the beginning. They are all about Bible study. They have published Bible study material by literalists, mystics, textual critics, agnostics and even (dare I say?) cultists! There have been frequent outcries against various resources being published. (Thayer's lexicon comes to mind.) Some have tried to denigrate other denominations or theological camps, even to the point of requesting Logos cease publication. That is what lead to the forum guidelines forbidding theological debates http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx . Logos operates under the free enterprise system. They publish what they will and we vote with our dollars. If they get real goofy on us they will lose enough sales to go out of business. If they allow others to dictate what will (or will NOT) be published, they will not enjoy the success they presently do. It is all about Bible study. Be that Septuagint, Korean Bibles, The Message, Reverse Interlinears, what-have-you...

    btw: I am not sure Logos made all the author choices for the EEC anyway. It really doesn't matter -- unless we are afraid we will be swayed off our dogma with a good scholarly argument presented by someone we disagree with.  [:O]

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,762

    That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.

    How does one test one's beliefs without exposure to other opinions? I will admit, however, that last night I was so tempted to enter a suggestion that I be able to enter negative stars for incredible stupidity - the issue was language not interpretation.[:D]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Mike Aubrey
    Mike Aubrey Member, Logos Employee Posts: 223

    btw: I am not sure Logos made all the author choices for the EEC anyway. It really doesn't matter -- unless we are afraid we will be swayed off our dogma with a good scholarly argument presented by someone we disagree with.

    Yes. In fact, I am sure that Logos did not make all the author choices. As it states on the EEC website in the history of the project. Logos came into this after many volumes were on their way to completion. Logos was connected with looking for a few scholars to contribute, but not many--not many at all.

  • Simon’s Brother
    Simon’s Brother Member Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    That being, "Should I entertain theological viewpoints in my Logos resources that I do not agree with?" That is a fair question that merits asking.

    How does one test one's beliefs without exposure to other opinions?

    Two great questions.