The Future of Logos 4
Y'all:
I saw the announcement of the web based interface several days ago, and I have some questions about the future of Logos 4 in light of this announcement. Let me put a few pieces together here, and see if this makes any sense.
1. Bob has repeatedly said that he believes the future is "the cloud," so he's working to bring Logos completely within "the cloud." It's apparent that this is driving the software more and more towards a constantly tethered package.
2. Bob has repeatedly refused to allow anyone to synchronize different pieces of data, citing increased technical support costs. So it's apparent that technical support costs drive a lot of the decisions being made at Logos.
Now, here's my question: Is this the first step in the death knell of downloadable, "run on my computer," Logos? I would honestly like a clear statement of direction from Logos.
Are the desktop versions of Logos, usable without a connection to the Internet, a thing of the past, while the future is this web only based interface? Is the company's drive towards 'the cloud" so strong that you are moving towards a "no software on your local machine" future?
I think this has major implications for the investments people have in the software, and the investments they are willing to make, so I'd like Bob, or someone from the company, to go on record with their thoughts on this. If there weren't such a clear drive towards "cloud computing" within Logos, it wouldn't be an issue that needs to be addressed, but cloud computing is clearly designed around a very thin client, with all the power and data being on the server. A lot of things seem to indicate this might be the ultimate direction Logos is going.
Russ
P.S. And yes, I know they are still developing features, and are just releasing the MAC version, but the question is the long term direction, rather than the immediate direction; the current software pushes could well be a "stopover" until Logos gets where it really wants to be, which is why I'm asking for clarification.
Comments
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Peace to you, Dear Brother *smile*
I truly wish you well, but …………………. Frankly, I absolutely question, and feel I cannot accept, the several presuppositions and premises that are the substance of your post. I think you are “forcing” some of the so-called “pieces” into a pre-conceived puzzle of your own making.
1prem•ise also pre•miss \ˈpre-məs\ noun
[in sense 1, from Middle English premisse, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, feminine of praemissus, past participle of praemittere to place ahead, from prae- pre- + mittere to send; in other senses, from Middle English premisses, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, neuter plural of praemissus] 14th century
1 a : a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn
b : something assumed or taken for granted : presupposition
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I'm not aware of the web announcement...can someone provide a link? Tks
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The 'announcement' was just about Biblia.com a few days ago.
Online Access to
Your Library at Biblia.com
Introducing Biblia.com: a super-simple web-based platform for
reading the Bible online—plus access to much of the content in your
Logos 4 library!
What makes Biblia.com so special?
1. Biblia.com is simple and easy to
use.
Biblia.com is simple and clean. It has an
easy-to-use interface. It’s designed for the ultimate Bible-reading
experience on the web.
2. Biblia.com provides powerful
web-based Bible study.
Biblia.com is a powerful web-based Bible.
Need to link to a Bible verse? Just type http://biblia.com/bible/jn3.16
Want to see the verse in context, or side-by-side with a commentary?
Just click the “more >>” link and the single-passage display turns
into a two-pane viewer where you can scroll through the Bible and
thousands of other books from your Logos library.
You can even link directly to a book in your library: http://biblia.com/books/summbblnt/Jn3
Need to search? Biblia.com has the power of
the Logos 4 search engine, running on the web.
It's that simple.
3. Biblia.com gives you access to
thousands of resources online.
If you're a Logos 4 user, you can access much of your library online,
complete with synchronization of “last read” position between Logos 4,
the iPhone/iPad, and Biblia.com! (The list of
books available online is subject to publisher permission, as with
availability through mobile applications.)
4. Biblia.com gives you another way to
access your books.
With shared licenses between Logos 4 for Mac, Windows, iPhone, iPad,
Mobile Web, and now Biblia.com, you can access
your books on the platform you're most comfortable with.
5. Biblia.com is free to use today.
Biblia.com is free for you to access right now.
Several books and Bibles are available right for anyone to use. If
you’re a Logos 4 user, you can access much of your library online right
now.
What are you waiting for? Give it a try!
http://www.biblia.comThis is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Depends on what you mean by long term. My non-insider supposition is 10 years from now we will still have a downloadable, work offline-able, desktop version of Logos. I wouldn't even venture to guess beyond that. Logos can't even tell you what computers will be like 10 years from now, which they would need to be able to tell you what their methods of delivery will be 10 years from now.
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Russ,
This has been discussed endlessly. He's been much clearer than most CEOs about the direction of Logos. As you know, this post answers all the questions you have asked above (may be not to your satisfaction, but all the information they can give, they have given): http://community.logos.com/forums/t/17936.aspx
"Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app.
It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even
forever."This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
This has been discussed endlessly. He's been much clearer than most CEOs about the direction of Logos. As you know, this post answers all the questions you have asked above (may be not to your satisfaction, but all the information they can give, they have given): http://community.logos.com/forums/t/17936.aspx
"Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app.
It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even
forever."But what does a "cloud app" mean, in Bob's mind? Something that's completely based on the 'web, or something that has a downloadable component? The indication is, from Bob's earlier postings, that this means a completely web based application --no download at all. This would make sense in his insistence not to provide any sort of synchronization control, which is why I think that piece fits into the puzzle. What I'd like is some form of clear statement. It makes a huge difference in whether or not I continue investing in this software --if Logos is just going to become a web based service, then it's probably not worth continuing to invest in resources, as just about anyone can provide web based resources (Galaxy, for instance, provides a web based resource for many of the journals).
For the person who said I'm not reading the signs right --again, what I'm asking for is clarity. If I believed I knew, I wouldn't ask.
And no, I don't expect Bob to know what computers will look like 10 years from now. OTOH, Bob clearly has a plan, and that plan is predicated on what he thinks computers will look like 10 years from now. So again, some clarity would be nice.
:-)
Russ
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Well, I saw this whole issue coming the day Bob announced L4 on the Logos blog. That morning, when I commented in a concerned way, he invited me to call, which I did and he explained some of the logic. Logos' subsequent 'path' has pretty much followed that first day, and my path has similarly been to always buy the 'CD' if possible, since L3 will be the final 'unteathered' world. Indeed, this week, the absolutely great deal on Hermeneia for Logos is 'Download', and so I'll be getting my version from the publisher (CD based). I would far prefer the bucks to go to Logos to support more 'stuff' for users. But Bob has a goal in mind, and I have approx 20 years ahead of me, that I have in mind.
That said, I do suspect that the days of 'owner-owned' books will die a slow death. The financials for publishing commentaries, etc in the face of electronic 'pick-and-choose' are not sustainable without some type of subscription type orientation. And people buying large libraries for which they can't remember what they have is similarly unsustainable. Thus a 'cloud'-based model is probably the only way to go financially. And indeed for maybe 99% of users, it's probably also the most convenient (along the lines of iPad, etc).
Where the 'rub' occurs is that a user has thousands of dollars tied up in a series of books that support his/her spiritual life. And another person controls how he/she will physically (and indeed involving privacy) use those books. Therein lies the problem. And so for me, I buy CD and hope the best for Logos.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
my path has similarly been to always buy the 'CD' if possible, since L3 will be the final 'unteathered' world. Indeed, this week, the absolutely great deal on Hermeneia for Logos is 'Download', and so I'll be getting my version from the publisher (CD based). I would far prefer the bucks to go to Logos to support more 'stuff' for users. But Bob has a goal in mind, and I have approx 20 years ahead of me, that I have in mind.
I am no computer geek so I have a question regarding purchasing the cd rom versus downloading a file. If I download files and use them in Logos 3 and then regularly back up those resource files on my external hard drive or even burn them to dvd's what is the difference than purchasing a cd rom from a publisher? Isn't the important thing that I have control of the digital files? And what happens when computers no longer have cd rom drives? My one question turned into several [^o)] Thanks for any answers!
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I started computing in the late 1970's. I love installed software and dislike cloud solutions.
I also hate setting up a new computer, installing software, moving my data files, etc.
My ideal scenario -- for everything -- is cloud syncing to local applications. Because I run a software company (and am still pretty geeky) I have a lot of computers. I've got desktops at home and work, various out-of-date and current laptops, etc. The new "heavy" travel laptop with all the power, the older "light" travel laptop for short trips. An iPhone and an iPad.
Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!
And not just for Logos... the files I used most are synced on between home and office (Microsoft Live Mesh). Because I don't like Google Docs. I don't want to edit through a web browser; I want to use a real word processor, real spreadsheet application, etc. I just want the same doc to be available at home and at work, without carrying around a USB key and worrying about "what's the latest version."
The feedback we've received from users (and our observation of the computing market) is that users love automatic synchronization. The "use it anywhere" capability of Logos 4 books and data are, as far as we can see, the number one selling point of Logos 4.
We designed this functionality in the anticipation that it would be popular. It has been more popular than we expected. While Logos 3 didn't work with books and data this way, Logos 4 was always intended to. In our minds, this is not "crippled" anymore than email is "crippled" by having to go through a hackable (government monitored?) server, instead of being delivered on disintegrating paper in a tamper-proof exploding envelope by armed bicycle couriers.
Now I have heard, and acknowledged that I've heard, that you don't want your content synced to the server. I get it. Some things I don't want in email. I don't put those things into email. But I don't call email "crippled" because it goes through third-party servers. I call it the wrong solution for my privacy needs. It's not crippled, because going through servers is what it was designed to do, and is in fact required in order to "be email."
That's the case for Logos 4 books and data. Going through sync is required in order for Logos 4 to "be Logos 4" -- i.e. "to be a tool that lets you access your books and data anywhere."
Now we can -- and apparently do -- disagree about whether or not that was a good design decision. You may even believe that Logos 3's lack of this feature, or the general history of locally stored data files since the advent of personal computers in the 1970's make offline data storage "right and normal" and online syncing "wrong or optional." But I'm in the camp that believes time marches on, and that "normal" goes along for the ride. You may disagree. (I certainly do, in other areas: I still have a hard-time with the redefinition of coffee from a bottomless cup poured by 'Flo' to a designer drink made by a 'barista' in a special store.)
As a concession to the age / superior-wisdom / intransigence / retro-styling / security-awareness (choose your own adjective! <smile>) of some of our users, we've already added some "turn off Internet use" features, and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future.
A) It'll be a "shoot yourself in the foot" type of feature, though, and will be discouraged.
It'll cut you off from what we think is the coolest part of Logos 4 -- using your data anywhere (including some new places you haven't seen yet).C) It's down the priority list behind all the things we promised already, some of which are in 4.1, and some of which still need to be done.
It really frustrates me to keep being accused of not listening to or caring about our users. You need to remember that we have a lot of users, and you don't all have the same priorities. Despite the volume and passion of a small group of users here, the message we're getting in general is that people love the syncing, and we have many more requests to extend it -- to Android, to bringing their notes to their iPhone, etc. -- than to spend time disabling it.
(I'll also point out that my "increased tech support" scenario is already coming true. Just today I read a forum thread where the "problem" was a user forgetting they'd turned off Internet use.)
With all that stuff that I promised myself I wouldn't re-hash all re-hashed... I'll now move on to your actual question. :-)
1. Yes, Logos is moving towards "constantly tethered" use. At about the same speed, and in parallel with, the rest of the entire world. If anything, we'll be late to the party: we still have an offline application, and we still plan to support and maintain it. Almost every new software company in the past five years has built their product around the assumption that you are (or will be) online all the time. In fact, we don't even call these companies software companies. Most "software" is written in "web" companies, and runs on web sites. Our idea of software -- an offline, installed bit of code -- is practically nostalgic!
2. Yes, technical support costs do drive a lot of the decisions being made at Logos. But that's simple and incomplete. The real situation is, all costs drive all decisions. That's how business work, and, most importantly, how they stay in business. Every decision made in a business is a cost analysis (Luke 14:28), and we weigh the cost of losing customers, the cost of writing code, the cost of supporting a complicated feature, and the cost of having to spend a lot of time arguing in the forums. :-)
Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4. We do not believe that we can get anywhere near the functionality of Logos 4 through a web browser. We are not web browser ideologues; we want the best solution. I believe (child of 70's and 80's computing that I am) that while the web is awesome, particularly for large data sets, the best code and UI is local and native. I even believe that's why "apps" are hotter on mobile devices than visiting web sites. (See Wired Magazine's "The Web is Dead." article.)
Logos is not moving away from local applications. We are moving towards more connectivity and shared data, though, based on what we hear from our customers. Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.
The good news -- for you -- is that none of this requires throwing out the offline, native-code application that is (and I expect will remain for years to come) the flagship of Logos Bible Software, and you can still choose to cut off the Internet, use our (forthcoming?) "don't sync" features, etc.
(Why Biblia.com then? Good question. A) To attract and find people on the web who are interested in the Bible and either don't know about Logos 4 or haven't seen how it benefits them. Some small percentage of Biblia.com users will upgrade to our "real product."
To provide a connection point for coming shared community features, so that a pastor or professor or Bible study leader can use Logos 4 to share sermon notes, Bible reading plans, group prayer lists, research content, small group discussion guides, etc. with a group people, some of whom might have Logos 4, and some of whom may not but still need a way to participate in the group. Biblia.com and the iPhone app are "least common denominators" that ensures a minimum of Bible and (by granted permission) Logos-synched group document access.)For more on my top-secret plans for the future... read them on our blog: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/07/logos_bible_software_the_master_plan.html
:-)
-- Bob
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[deleted because of Bob's response]
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Russ there is an easy solution. Sell your licenses and stop using the software. Everyone here is tired of you berating Logos and interpreting what you think Logos is doing. You are creating far more controversy than is necessary. If you have concerns about Logos, why continue to invest thousands of dollars in it? And to say that Logos isn't listening to your concerns is rubbish. You just received an extended response from the CEO. You will never get that kind of response from 99% of the companies in the world. The only way you think your concerns will be "listened to" is if your concerns are immediately implemented. But that stretches the definition of "listened to" to inappropriate proportions.
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Bob Pritchett said:
We designed this functionality in the anticipation that it would be popular. It has been more popular than we expected. While Logos 3 didn't work with books and data this way, Logos 4 was always intended to. In our minds, this is not "crippled" anymore than email is "crippled" by having to go through a hackable (government monitored?) server, instead of being delivered on disintegrating paper in a tamper-proof exploding envelope by armed bicycle couriers.
The difference is I can encrypt my email when I send it --I don't mind my data being in Logos, and I don't mind my data being on the 'net. I do mind not being able to do a local backup (networks fail), and I do mind not being able to encrypt it.
[quote]...and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future.
Thank You! Either solution would make my life a lot easier, both in being a Logos advocate, and in using the software myself! That decision would make me much more confident to move forward with advocating Logos.
[quote]B) It'll cut you off from what we think is the coolest part of Logos 4 -- using your data anywhere (including some new places you haven't seen yet).
I'll accept that I can't get to specific sets of notes from every platform in order to secure specific things I'm working on. I think everyone else would, too.
[quote]Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4. We do not believe that we can get anywhere near the functionality of Logos 4 through a web browser. We are not web browser ideologues; we want the best solution. I believe (child of 70's and 80's computing that I am) that while the web is awesome, particularly for large data sets, the best code and UI is local and native. I even believe that's why "apps" are hotter on mobile devices than visiting web sites. (See Wired Magazine's "The Web is Dead." article.)
Thanks for this input, as well. This is really the question I wanted answered...
[quote]Logos is not moving away from local applications. We are moving towards more connectivity and shared data, though, based on what we hear from our customers. Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.
But you must understand that not all my notes were designed for public consumption. That just because I want to share my notes on Luke 1, for instance, doesn't mean I want to share my notes on Genesis 1 that I might be using to work on a new book, or something of that nature. Making people share everything or nothing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I currently use OneNote, because it allows me to share some notes files publicly, put others on the "cloud" with just "password into the service" protection, put others on the "cloud" with encryption, so even MS can't read them, and keep others completely local.
As Bruce Schneier has said --if you want perfect security, you just put your data on a computer, weigh it down with concrete, and dump it over the deepest trench in the Atlantic. Security and usability are always tradeoffs; the point is to give the user the choice, rather than making them accept what Logos thinks is the proper choice.
Thank you for answering, Bob.
:-)
Russ
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Thanks again Bob. I know this is headed toward the Logos speaks page even if Rosie hasn't got it yet.
I want to highlight the following for a moment.
Seriously.Bob Pritchett said:It really frustrates me to keep being accused of not listening to or caring about our users.
I agree.
Can we voice disagreements about how the program works or about company direction without impugning the character of the company or it's people? We've all seen (those of us that have been around for at least a few months and have been watching) enough to know that Bob and all at Logos typically not only care deeply about Logos Bible Software and it's users, but are also themselves diligent students of scripture (warts and all).
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Russ White said:
But you must understand that not all my notes were designed for public consumption.
[:-*] whisper ~ The public is not interested in your notes.
This is a Bible study program, not the missile launch codes or a submarine tracking GPS.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bob Pritchett said:
Today's "power of synchronization" is that you can get to your documents on many devices. Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.
[Y] +1
Thanks Bob, and by the way, please put me in the camp of loving ubiquitous access to my resources, anytime, anyplace... iPad, Android, Biblia.com, Desktop (Win or Mac). It's a geeks dream come true.
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Thomas Black said:
Can we voice disagreements about how the program works or about company direction without impugning the character of the company or it's people? We've all seen (those of us that have been around for at least a few months and have been watching) enough to know that Bob and all at Logos typically not only care deeply about Logos Bible Software and it's users, but are also themselves diligent students of scripture (warts and all).
I apologize if any of my statements have been taken in this way. I'm a huge advocate of Logos, and Bible study software in general, but there are times when I feel like Logos simply isn't listening. Of course, I also don't think that saying someone isn't listening impugns their character in some way.
OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users. "No-one cares about your private data," is a common enough comment here (just look at this thread). If anyone thinks that saying "Logos isn't listening" impugns their character, then what does, "your data isn't worth protecting," imply?
Russ
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Russ White said:
but there are times when I feel like Logos
simply isn't listening. Of course, I also don't think that saying
someone isn't listening impugns their character in some way.Russ, I am friendly to your concerns (but perhaps don't hold them as high as you do), but Bob Pritchett has replied multiple times to threads you have started on this topic, plus he even started a thread himself. I've not sure what you need to feel listened to, but it
seems to me that Bob is listening. Just because someone doesn't change
his mind in response to your argument doesn't mean he isn't listening. It's frustrating listening to this discussion, because I believe that he is listening. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to Bob.MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Russ White said:
I'm a huge advocate of Logos, and Bible study software in general, but there are times when I feel like Logos simply isn't listening
If it's any consolation, during the dark days of Logos3, I 'had' to go to the lengths of setting up an FTP server on my two main PCs, to handle the syncing of at least three different Logos folders, plus (with even more difficulty) registry settings. I was arguing for greater syncing, but to no avail. Nobody was listening (by which I meant, of course, that no-one was listening to me.) But little did I know that Logos was thinking far more clearly than me on this.
I also argued strongly for a Windows Mobile edition, to absolutely no avail. Logos said it wasn't worth it, I said it was. So when L4 came out I was 'forced' to buy an iPhone. Three months later Microsoft announced that Windows Mobile was dead. Again, Logos' were thinking far more clearly than me.
I still argue for various features to be included/excluded from future development. I still think I'm right on those issues (at the moment). But I suspect that history will prove that Logos was right far more often than I was. (Which I guess is why Bob's running the company and not me.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Todd Phillips said:Russ White said:
but there are times when I feel like Logos
simply isn't listening. Of course, I also don't think that saying
someone isn't listening impugns their character in some way.Russ, I am friendly to your concerns (but perhaps don't hold them as high as you do), but Bob Pritchett has replied multiple times to threads you have started on this topic, plus he even started a thread himself. I've not sure what you need to feel listened to, but it
seems to me that Bob is listening. Just because someone doesn't change
his mind in response to your argument doesn't mean he isn't listening. It's frustrating listening to this discussion, because I believe that he is listening. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to Bob.You might note that this thread was not started to talk about privacy, but rather a future direction. I only brought privacy into the discussion as piece of a puzzle, trying to figure out where Logos is going based on external communications in this forum. The question was asked so I would have greater understanding, not to raise the privacy issue again.
To the second point, "why do you feel the need to be listened to?" I take privacy seriously. I have the same argument with people who I'm working on network designs with all the time. For instance, I just ran across a medical company that does not encrypt medical records across a service running on a "public" network. Their answer? "Well, this isn't missile launch codes or anything." Sound familiar? I, of course, told them in no uncertain terms that this was a nonsense answer --you don't play with people's data. I've seen the effect leaking what appears to be innocuous information can have on people's lives. Information you think is trivial turns sometimes out to have great import. So I take it seriously.
If you haven't noticed, I've made a lot of other suggestions to Logos, and haven't raised then ton nearly the same level of visibility. I made one just two days ago, actually, about keys for visual filters. I've suggested books in the past, too, and other features. I understand Logos can't do everything --but privacy, to me, isn't "just a feature," when you work on software or networks where people are going to be entering data. It doesn't matter if you think it's "important" data or not.
Russ
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Bob Pritchett said:
As a concession to the age / superior-wisdom / intransigence / retro-styling / security-awareness (choose your own adjective! <smile>) of some of our users, we've already added some "turn off Internet use" features, and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future.
A) It'll be a "shoot yourself in the foot" type of feature, though, and will be discouraged.
It'll cut you off from what we think is the coolest part of Logos 4 -- using your data anywhere (including some new places you haven't seen yet).C) It's down the priority list behind all the things we promised already, some of which are in 4.1, and some of which still need to be done.
I'm not so concerned about Logos having notes or layouts and I love to automatic download feature (purchasing items on line or using social networkins site is much more risky than using Logos). I would like to suggest an obtion to leave internet use on but allow the user to set how often syncing occurs. I have buttons on my toolbar to turn internet use off and on simply because syncing frequently as it does now really slows down the application.
Thanks
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Mark Barnes said:
I also argued strongly for a Windows Mobile edition, to absolutely no avail. Logos said it wasn't worth it, I said it was. So when L4 came out I was 'forced' to buy an iPhone. Three months later Microsoft announced that Windows Mobile was dead. Again, Logos' were thinking far more clearly than me.
Someone seems to have failed to tell Microsoft that Windows Mobile is dead.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/windows-phone-7-series-is-official-and-microsoft-is-playing-to/
In fact, Andriod is currently selling more units than the iPhone --but, OTOH, I understand that Logos can't support every platform. In fact, I happen to use Windows Mobile on my phone (I'm not a huge fan of the iPhone or iPad, honestly, though I do run a Mac laptop), but I've not pushed for a version on Windows Mobile.
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
To the second point, "why do you feel the need to be listened to?" I take privacy seriously. I have the same argument with people who I'm working on network designs with all the time. For instance, I just ran across a medical company that does not encrypt medical records across a service running on a "public" network. Their answer? "Well, this isn't missile launch codes or anything." Sound familiar? I, of course, told them in no uncertain terms that this was a nonsense answer --you don't play with people's data. I've seen the effect leaking what appears to be innocuous information can have on people's lives. Information you think is trivial turns sometimes out to have great import. So I take it seriously.
I think you misunderstood me. (and I see I didn't word it well) I was trying to ask "why do you feel that you haven't been listened to?", considering the number of responses Bob has made on this topic.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:Russ White said:
To the second point, "why do you feel the need to be listened to?" I take privacy seriously. I have the same argument with people who I'm working on network designs with all the time. For instance, I just ran across a medical company that does not encrypt medical records across a service running on a "public" network. Their answer? "Well, this isn't missile launch codes or anything." Sound familiar? I, of course, told them in no uncertain terms that this was a nonsense answer --you don't play with people's data. I've seen the effect leaking what appears to be innocuous information can have on people's lives. Information you think is trivial turns sometimes out to have great import. So I take it seriously.
I think you misunderstood me. (and I see I didn't word it well) I was trying to ask "why do you feel that you haven't been listened to?", considering the number of responses Bob has made on this topic.
Because, IMHO, up to this point his answers haven't answered the question I've actually been asking.I know some here will disagree, but I've had offline discussions with others, and they've felt the same way, so I don't think I'm the only one interpreting it this way. There's been some miscommunication, in part because there are two things in view here:
1. The concern about bandwidth usage. I grock this concern, and second it, but it's a feature concern.
2. The privacy concern. For me, again, this isn't a feature; it's something that should just be there. Even Facebook is learning it's not about what people are willing to divulge, it's about how much control you give them over the information. Given the choice between divulging nothing to everyone, and divulging everything to everyone, most users, when they really understand the consequences, will divulge nothing, no matter how inconsequential anyone else might think the information is.
When you give people gradations and options, they will respond by divulging some things, and not others. In reality, this is much healthier for Logos, if the real long term goal is to encourage the sharing of notes and ideas between users, sort of a "meta commentary," like the Kindle is doing now with Facebook. I would toss my Kindle in the garbage if every comment I made was auto-posted to Facebook, and I had no control. To encourage sharing, you must provide control.
:-)
Russ
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How does the Facebook analogy help? Logos doesn't share any of your data, unless you make public edits to topics (or in L3 explicitly publish sermons). The issue with Logos is secure storage, not sharing.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Pritchett said:
and will probably add either an encrypting password
I wish I had read this before posting on the 'other' thread! If this sentence said: "and will add an encrypting password" I'd be even happier. This is not a feature that I consider optional or nice to have. For Internet data storage it's the bare minimum security requirement IMHO.
BTW I thought Biblia.com was excellent - if I am working at a client's offices (as a software consultant) I can't go installing Logos on their computers. But I can use their Internet during lunchbreaks. The fact it has an API and web services also means I can write code to use it - as some may have guessed from my posts, I rather like writing code!!
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Mark Barnes said:
How does the Facebook analogy help? Logos doesn't share any of your data, unless you make public edits to topics (or in L3 explicitly publish sermons). The issue with Logos is secure storage, not sharing.
Maybe the Facebook analogy is not a 100% reflection of the situation, but I think the point is about being able to be in control of things. For me, the deal breaker is that Notes etc are stored unencrypted, which means that anyone with access to the server (such as administrators) who is curious can look at my data without my permission. This may never happen, but the possibility simply should not exist.
Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
If I were Logos I would make this my top priority. It's a quick win. It would end many of these debates. It would become a good selling point on Logos' web site. In my apps I would view it as no more than one man-day's work to implement it, assuming everything was encrypted. That's not exactly a huge investment in time...
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Andy Bell said:
Maybe the Facebook analogy is not a 100% reflection of the situation, but I think the point is about being able to be in control of things. For me, the deal breaker is that Notes etc are stored unencrypted, which means that anyone with access to the server (such as administrators) who is curious can look at my data without my permission.
So you're confident that no Facebook employees can access your personal data? I'm not. Certainly that's not true at Google. (That link will make you even more certain of the need, but my point is only that Logos' policy is similar to other major companies).
Andy Bell said:Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
I'm sorry, but not a hope. Apart from the need to to modify the UI to enter (and change) the password, create help files, handle error situations. Then you have to write code to encrypt all the existing data on the Logos server (or at least to delete it all and re-sync). And then you have to an encryption methods to every type of data sync between Logos and us - and there are a lot of data types. (And you can't say "encrypt it all", because not all the data should be encrypted even.) And then you have to test it, which will mean setting up a dedicated test syncing server if one doesn't already exist. And then you have to make sure it's backwards compatible for people who don't upgrade. And then you have to check for security holes. If you can do that in a day (or even a week), you should apply for a job.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
So you're confident that no Facebook employees can access your personal data? I'm not. Certainly that's not true at Google. (That link will make you even more certain of the need, but my point is only that Logos' policy is similar to other major companies).
I don't have a Facebook account. Nor any other social network account. I used to post to Friends Reunited but then I knew what I posted was going to be viewable to everyone. And I don't store anything on Google that I would consider confidential - I have always viewed email as the equivalent of sending a postcard and use it with that viewpoint in mind.
Mark Barnes said:I'm sorry, but not a hope
Us software developers are notorious for being over-optimistic in our estimation! Agreed, it's more than a trivial task to implement encryption in Logos, although the actual encryption algorithm is trivial because it's already in the public domain. If I knew the code base and the tech Logos uses ((I'm not a .NET programmer) I reckon I could get basic encryption of user data implemented pretty quickly.
Mark Barnes said:And then you have to test it
I thought that was what end users were for [:P]
Anyway, however simple/difficult it may be I wish they would do it!
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Thomas Black said:
Thanks again Bob. I know this is headed toward the Logos speaks page even if Rosie hasn't got it yet.
Kevin beat me to it.
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Andy Bell said:Mark Barnes said:
How does the Facebook analogy help? Logos doesn't share any of your data, unless you make public edits to topics (or in L3 explicitly publish sermons). The issue with Logos is secure storage, not sharing.
Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
This is not trivial - good security is very hard to get right. Just calling a series of encryption algorithms does not a secure system make. There is a fundamental misunderstanding out there that wrapping some encryption around data will fix the "privacy problem". Cryptography can be effective for some things, but it isn't a cure-all. Security in the "cloud" is still a very active research area and there are many unknowns on which solutions are feasible or correct.
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Without re-reading this thread (I'm not in the mood bleh) I don't think it was a comment from you Russ. Bob mentioned it, and I read another thread somewhere on here today that point blank did call Bob's character in question (no i don't remember who the poster is, I don't feel like looking it up). After reading that, and then seeing Bob's comment - I had to chime in on agreement.Russ White said:I apologize if any of my statements have been taken in this way.
FWIW I hope I've never done that. I'm a moderate security nut myself - so a comment of that sort would be out of character for me, not that a google search wouldn't show my lose myself once in a while. [*-)]Russ White said:OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas Black said:
FWIW I hope I've never done that. I'm a moderate security nut myself - so a comment of that sort would be out of character for me, not that a google search wouldn't show my lose myself once in a while.Russ White said:OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users.
Wasn't directed at you... :-) Anyone who's ever worked on an HR or government system ends up being at least a moderate security nut before it's over with. It only takes seeing one person's life ruined for leaked data before you realize just how bad things can get --as the Scriptures say, a good name is to be desired above just about everything else...
:-)
Russ
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Mark Barnes said:Andy Bell said:
Maybe the Facebook analogy is not a 100% reflection of the situation, but I think the point is about being able to be in control of things. For me, the deal breaker is that Notes etc are stored unencrypted, which means that anyone with access to the server (such as administrators) who is curious can look at my data without my permission.
So you're confident that no Facebook employees can access your personal data? I'm not. Certainly that's not true at Google. (That link will make you even more certain of the need, but my point is only that Logos' policy is similar to other major companies).
And that's why I only do minimal stuff with Facebook, don't keep my blog on a Google server, don't use gmail except when necessary, and don't use google search. Facebook isn't a perfect analogy, but I will go farther than the "email is a postcard" example. I consider just about anything stored on a database on the web just like a postcard.
In theory, the only people who can read a postcard are those who happen to live near you (on the same network as you are), have access to the server (the postal employees in the sorting room), and the mailman (the service provider). If you'd trust writing your SSN on a postcard and sending it, without an envelope, then you should trust putting your SSN, or any other private data, on a server in an unencrypted format. Precisely the same people are theoretically able to see it in both cases.
And the same is true of your notes in Logos today --it's just like putting your thoughts about passages, etc, all your research and time and effort, on a postcard and sending it through the mail on a postcard. Would you do that with the research for your doctoral thesis, or a new book you're working on (especially if you're someone who makes a living by writing)? You can trust the people who work at the post office, right?
:-)
Russ
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Nope, won't work --so I deleted the post. Need to do some brainstorming on how to make this easy for Logos, but, really, this thread has devolved back to privacy --not where I wanted to go.
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
And the same is true of your notes in Logos
today --it's just like putting your thoughts about passages, etc, all
your research and time and effort, on a postcard and sending it through
the mail on a postcard. Would you do that with the research for your
doctoral thesis, or a new book you're working on (especially if you're
someone who makes a living by writing)? You can trust the people
who work at the post office, right?The research for my doctoral thesis is currently regularly emailed to my supervisor (and I don't know a single doctoral student who uses PGP to email their
supervisor). He no doubt prints it out, leaves it in his office without always locking his door, probably passes occasional copies to colleagues for their comments, and likely disposes of it without putting it through an industrial grade shredder.I trust him, his colleages and his cleaner. I trust Logos employees too - though if someone gets awarded a PhD from West Washington University for a thesis on The Gift of Prophecy, you will let me know, won't you ;-)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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JH said:
This is not trivial - good security is very hard to get right. Just calling a series of encryption algorithms does not a secure system make. There is a fundamental misunderstanding out there that wrapping some encryption around data will fix the "privacy problem". Cryptography can be effective for some things, but it isn't a cure-all. Security in the "cloud" is still a very active research area and there are many unknowns on which solutions are feasible or correct.
For what it's worth, all I said was that implementing encryption is trivial. I did not say that security was trivial. The context of this discussion is how Logos uses the cloud - they use (I think) Amazon's cloud services and have little or no input into 'cloud security'. What they can do is add a layer of security by encrypting the data.
If I had my personal notes stored in a cloud and I heard that it had suffered a security breach I would be far happier knowing it was 256 bit encrypted with a 20 character password than if it were unencrypted. I'm sure you would too, especially if there were confidential things stored in those notes.
Andy
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Andy Bell said:
they use (I think) Amazon's cloud services and have little or no input into 'cloud security'.
They use Amazon for serving static files (i.e. resource downloads), but (we think) their own servers for user data.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Quoting Bob P:
Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of
finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything
shows up.I, for one....feel the same. I have said "ahh...nice" more than once after a full reformat....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Andy Bell said:
Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
One practical aspect that I've not seen raised: the resource cost of encrypting and decrypting. Enough people have performance issues already that it would take very solid statistics to convince me that one could encrypt and stay within performance goals. I'm quite willing to let Logos make that call because I don't have sufficient information to make a good design decision.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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JH said:
This is not trivial - good security is very hard to get right. Just calling a series of encryption algorithms does not a secure system make. There is a fundamental misunderstanding out there that wrapping some encryption around data will fix the "privacy problem". Cryptography can be effective for some things, but it isn't a cure-all. Security in the "cloud" is still a very active research area and there are many unknowns on which solutions are feasible or correct.
Thank you for pointing this aspect out.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
The research for my doctoral thesis is currently regularly emailed to my supervisor
The one case I know of a professor being fired for using their student's work without attribution was towards the end of the typewriter era. If anything, timestamped email provides the student with greater safety.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!
I'm planning on installing Logos today. Used to be something I would dread and plan a whole afternoon for. Now, install and let the internet do the rest. For that I am extremely grateful.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Going through sync is required in order for Logos 4 to "be Logos 4" -- i.e. "to be a tool that lets you access your books and data anywhere."
I don't have an issue with Logos 4 being Logos 4. But we will have to disagree on your choice in not giving users a personal choice in opting out on whether things like prayer lists or notes are uploaded to a Logos server. Right now this is its not a personal concern I believe the issue is bigger than me and so believe those who do have a concern should have that choice. (Thinking about an issue in light of another persons interests must be a strange concept to some given their responses to those who have said they'd like the option.)
Bob Pritchett said:Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4.
Thank you for clarifying this point.
Bob Pritchett said:Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.
I am personally comfortable with the current set-up of Logos 4 as I said earlier but I have no interest your vision of tomorrow's "power of synchronisation". So I have just deleted all my notes and prayer lists from Logos 4 and will no longer be using these features of the software. I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook. You have made it clear its all or nothing so for me form now on its nothing in terms of notes and prayer lists. So I guess the good news for you Bob is I never going to raise notes as an issue again.
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Mark Barnes said:
How does the Facebook analogy help? Logos doesn't share any of your data, unless you make public edits to topics (or in L3 explicitly publish sermons). The issue with Logos is secure storage, not sharing.
Given Bob's following comments, particularly in relation to Kindle, for me I'm not interested in collaboratively sharing everything and anything with the world at large, I see this statement of the future very different to just secure storage. That's fine Logos is making a business model decision which does not work for me. So from this point forward I'll begin working towards a model that works for my needs in terms of notes, that is outside of Logos. Personally, for me I have no gripes with Logos about their choice and would only say what I already have: I believe it is wrong not to have a selective opt out option. If they ever change that choice I'll reconsider using Logos once again using Logos notes.
Bob Pritchett said:Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes
with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate
with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the
instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature,
or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted
phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a
conversation about the book with its author or other readers.0 -
Andrew McKenzie said:
I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook.
I'm surprised you expose yourself via Facebook; which is far more amenable to external interference (even if restricted to information gathering) than my documents on Logos' servers! I'm very conservative about information and transactions I conduct on the Internet eg.
- you won't get me on Facebook or Twitter
- my Notes and Clippings would only interest a bible student!
- I use a password generator and password length to ensure that a serious attempt is required to break it
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Andrew McKenzie said:
I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook.
I'm surprised you expose yourself via Facebook; which is far more amenable to external interference (even if restricted to information gathering) than my documents on Logos' servers! I'm very conservative about information and transactions I conduct on the Internet eg.
- you won't get me on Facebook or Twitter
- my Notes and Clippings would only interest a bible student!
- I use a password generator and password length to ensure that a serious attempt is required to break it
Personally I don't think my notes or clippings would really interest anyone and its not about being concerned about what others might read or see but about choice which Logos believes the creator of the data only deserves if they make the right to share it all.
I am not suggesting Facebook is more secure than a Logos server, and as I have said my study notes and my life on the whole, would be un-interesting to the world at large and so this is not personally about just security but about choice which Logos has seems to have detrmine a user should have only an all or nothing choice and nothing in between.
But on Facebook I do have choices, about both with whom and what I share. Other than my name and photo, nothing is visible if I haven't given you approval. Within my account I work lists to determine who get to see what and so can control things on a more detailed level, but I use it mostly so not to bore people with personal interests I know they just dont' want to hear about or is not relevant because they are not part of the group of people I am addressing. For instance things about Logos Bible Software I will only send to people I have on a list whom I know use the software or are truly interested in using technology for bible study. For instance people on my approved list who aren't Christian's probably dont' want to hear about Logos Bible Software so I have a list to control whom I share my posts about Logos.
Is is perfectly secure and safe - of course not, but not is a Logos server. If someone is relying sole upon it for their backup then there's a big whole in their backup regime
Edit Note: I was speaking with a friend at church today who has twitter account with is completely closed and he doesn't subscribe to anyone else's account, and simply uses it to create a To Do List he can access anywhere.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!
I really enjoy, and now would greatly miss, the power of the local app with the cloud holding my information to make moving between computers and locations easy. Bravo on that!
But what I quoted above that you said Bob, that is not our experience entirely!
Logos does NOT provide all resources. It may provide different versions of resources. And if it's a resource I have installed on another computer from CD, Logos may not know about it and hence will not install it on a new computer. At that point, the tools are woefully inadequate to figure out what resources are old or outdated. This also makes backup locally a requirement locally, because if I lose those resources Logos can't replace them like it can all the others. Backup too then is difficult for some users wading through hidden folders, no tools in the program to provide the backup, etc. etc.
Doesn't a new resource I install from CD have to move UP to the cloud if Logos doesn't have it?
A cloud solution for resource does not work if it only provides 90% of the resources with no easy tools to reconcile or eliminate the gap moving forward. What has been personally frustrating to me is not that this problem still exists, as the technology is new, but that the problem is really not acknowledged at all. I would be willing to bet that quite a few Logos users, especially if they have older resources or Galaxie resources, have different installations of resources on multiple computers (if they use multiple computers), and don't even realize it. Until this all at least gets outlined as to a plan to correct, I think the cloud solution is very suspect because I am not sure this is even in the cards to make it 100% reliable.
Just my .02 - love the product otherwise! But I make my own backups and check file versions between computers constantly ;-)
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Andrew I cannot speak for Logos, but somehow I doubt you will have to share everything with everyone. In L3 we could choose to share notes with the community.Andrew McKenzie said:Given Bob's following comments, particularly in relation to Kindle, for me I'm not interested in collaboratively sharing everything and anything with the world at large,
I read Bob to say that I can share some of my notes with everyone by placing it on their servers, or share some with a selected group of people.
Bob wrote: "...and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future..."
@ Mark Barnes: I am interested in the topic of your dissertation. Please contact me via email: logosforum at the mail that is always hot.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Dominick Sela said:
Until this all at least gets outlined as to a plan to correct, I think the cloud solution is very suspect because I am not sure this is even in the cards to make it 100% reliable.
I'm sure that this problem will be fixed but because it is a matter of compiling a complete resource list of 3rd party resources, its a very different problem. If I were Bob, it wouldn't come to my mind in regards to the cloud.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If Logos is sending the data using HTTPS (an encrypted protocol) then there already is some encryption taking place. Ironically, the receiving cloud server decrypts the data before storing it :-(MJ. Smith said:Andy Bell said:Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
One practical aspect that I've not seen raised: the resource cost of encrypting and decrypting. Enough people have performance issues already that it would take very solid statistics to convince me that one could encrypt and stay within performance goals. I'm quite willing to let Logos make that call because I don't have sufficient information to make a good design decision.
My experience with encryption is that most algorithms perform well - but it does depend on the algorithm and the size of the data being encrypted. Optional encryption would allow those with low powered machines to choose between speed and security.
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