A new year coming up and

Yes, I can now officially be labeled impatient. I have been awaiting the ability to link notes to a liturgical date rather than the calendar date currently provided for the lectionary. We are fast approaching a new liturgical year and I am STILL waiting to be able to not create kludges but be able to actually do what I use Logos the most for. See I even used capitals to shout, I'm so impatient.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

NetworkGeek

Hi MJ,

For my education what do you mean by this? Not sure what a liturgical date is, like a feast day by name or something?

Thanks!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191209#Comment_191209

Not sure what a liturgical date is, like a feast day by name or something?

Yes, for much of the Western church the liturgical year begins on the first Sunday of Advent, it is follow by Monday in the first week of Advent, etc ... one also speaks of feasts simply by the feast name - Christmas, Pentecost, Ash Wednesday etc. When you are looking for what you preached in a previous year, you don't care what you preached on Dec 3, you care what you preached on the first Sunday of Advent.

tom

Yes, I can now officially be labeled impatient. I have been awaiting the ability to link notes to a liturgical date rather than the calendar date currently provided for the lectionary. We are fast approaching a new liturgical year and I am STILL waiting to be able to not create kludges but be able to actually do what I use Logos the most for. See I even used capitals to shout, I'm so impatient.

[Y]

fgh

Needless to say, I support this, as I support every improvement regarding calendars, lectionaries and liturgy resources in general.

Rich DeRuiter

Yes, I can now officially be labeled impatient. I have been awaiting the ability to link notes to a liturgical date rather than the calendar date currently provided for the lectionary. We are fast approaching a new liturgical year and I am STILL waiting to be able to not create kludges but be able to actually do what I use Logos the most for. See I even used capitals to shout, I'm so impatient.

Are you talking about linking to a lectionary date? If not, how else might a note be attached to a calendar (I'm ready to learn something new here)?

If you are talking about a lectionary day, do you want to link to (e.g.) every "First Sunday of Advent," or every "First Sunday of Advent, Year A;" I'm not quite sure I follow. If I understand the lectionary properly there is a 3 year repeating cycle. So what might be relevant in year A, may not be so relevant in year B, etc. Or, are you wanting to attach a note to every Epiphany, or Pentecost Sunday (e.g.), regardless of the reading?

I've not tried to do this, and don't use the lectionary, so be patient with me, as I try to understand the question. I do notice that linking to the title of the day, puts the date in the link-title of the note. And that attaching a note to Advent 1, Year A in 2007 doesn't let that note show up in Advent 1, Year A 2010.

It would seem to me that, if this is what you want to do, that it would be different from any other note feature in Logos, and require a likely redesign of how notes work. OR, it would require that Logos allow a note to be attached to more than one place (requested on uservoice, if I remember correctly).

If I'm misunderstanding what you're wanting, please clarify.

EDIT: I just thought of a different way to do this, but it would require a redesign of the lectionary, stripping the dates, and just naming the days/cycles, leaving the discernment of the proper date to the user. It wouldn't solve the problem of linking a note to every Ash Wednesday, or Pentecost (e.g.), but it would allow a note to show up every time in the same cycle. It would be a kind of perpetual lectionary (I have one of those in my "dead-tree" personal library somewhere).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191436#Comment_191436

Are you talking about linking to a lectionary date?

One needs to link to a single liturgical date (including year/cycle) in a particular lectionary. The lectionaries that come to mind have 1, 2, 3 or 4 year cycles. Some major feast days are the same across all years.

Currently, you can link notes to a lectionary entry but unfortunately the link is to a secular calendar date not a liturgical date. This creates problems because:

not all liturgical dates appear in a specific year
the secular date corresponding to a liturgical date in Logos is general, not specific to the diocese, order and parish
in general the secular date is irrelevant to subsequent use of the notes

However, the lectionary is essentially the only place one can make the link because Logos as a whole assumes that one is working on a single piece of Scripture. Liturgical churches normally build the service and sermon based on multiple passages.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191552#Comment_191552

the lectionary is essentially the only place one can make the link

While I certainly support your request, that is not entirely true. You could make a folder in Favorites called 'The Liturgical Year'; create a note file called 'Sunday X, year y'; start with links to the texts; continue with your notes; and then drag a copy to the folder in Favorites. And then when Logos fixes this flaw you can just add a link to the correct liturgical date as well.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191576#Comment_191576

You could make a folder in Favorites called 'The Liturgical Year';

I've taken a slightly different tack of using a note to gather links together ... however, this approach is error prone and has no automatic way of showing new or missing entries. It would be more satisfactory it notes supported tables. I'd faked my way in L3 using/abusing sermons and PBB's - and still use L3 for some purposes since I can't make my own parallel passages in L4 or abuse sermons & PBB's. Mind you, I do much prefer L4 over L3 but ...

I've consider favorites several times and determined that it isn't the best solution for me - but it certainly is one feasible way.

TCBlack

MJ,

I hope this turns out for you. Even as a low church guy I can see the value of it for those occasions when I want to dip my toes into the realm of a more defined liturgy.

So what would this take? Essentially a list of the date names and the capacity then to calculate what those dates are right?

ie. Christmas as a constant always equals Dec 25. The relative advent sundays then are C-7, C-14, C-21, C-28. Right?

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191677#Comment_191677

What it takes is a data type, and, given the variations among liturgical calendars, a satisfactory solution would probably require a data type for every lectionary (and convertibility between those data types if we wanted to support any correspondence between different lectionaries).

Something like this might be possible--and might eventually be the way we go--but it's relatively complex and costly, and it seems like it misses the real problem, which is that lectionary resources, as successors to the Libronix Lectionary Viewer, are geared toward straightforwardly presenting the text for the day (thus, primary indexing by secular calendar date) and that this is at cross-purposes with what you're hoping to do.

In other words, the Logos lectionary is organized like one of those annual paperback "missalettes", which is great for the novice who just wants to know what the readings are for next Sunday, but is too limited when what you really want is a complete, re-usable, listing of readings organized like a "real" lectionary.

It seems to me that something along the lines of what Richard is suggesting is really the more direct and complete answer to what you want. However, we'll also want to preserve the existing functionality for those of us who just want to quickly look up today's readings.

What about having a complete "table of readings" at the end of the lectionary resource that's organized more like a "real" lectionary, and that's mutally linked up to the existing annual "missalette"-style listings in the front? Support for votives and commons will likely require something along these lines anyway, so it seems natural enough to include propers there as well, providing a complete reference that exposes all the data in one place.

I won't rule out some kind of eventual data type solution (which is what would be necessary for Logos to understand a liturgical date as a "reference" that you could hang a note on), but would this address the basic problem? Would the duplication confuse things too much or be too cumbersome?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191677#Comment_191677

Christmas as a constant always equals Dec 25. The relative advent sundays then are C-7, C-14, C-21, C-28. Right?

Almost. The worst case (for liturgy) is when Christmas falls on a Sunday. C-1 is then the Fourth Sunday of Advent ... but at sundown you are suddenly in the Christmas Vigil - having completely changed the setting from austere purple/lavender to festive white. So the 4th Sunday of Advent may be C-1 to C-7. Most of the liturgical dates can be calculated as the Sunday that falls between two dates. Phylis Tribble set up her Liturgy of the Hours on this pattern so that people don't need a liturgical calendar or need to understand one to use her books. The problem comes on the dates that are based on Easter - Ash Wednesday through Pentecost.

I don't have the rules down for the Jewish calendar and the Orthodox use a slightly different calculation for when Easter falls. However, Logos shouldn't have to develop the algorithm for the calculation - there are a couple of computer scientists who have a fairly impressive solution that are willing to share (at least there used to be).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191803#Comment_191803

In other words, the Logos lectionary is organized like one of those annual paperback "missalettes",

Sorry, but I must disagree with you. The missalettes are printed for particular regions - you can't use a British missalette or a Canadian missalette or an Australian missalette in the US. Logos does not (and should not) attempt to tell us what the readings are for next Sunday ... Logos tells us what the most likely readings are for next Sunday.You are correct that the liturgical date does need to be a data type for the best solutions.

However, while the lectionary is the easiest way to make the point, the fundamental difference is that Logos is set up for studying a single passage and building Bible studies and sermons on single passages. Those using to working with lectionaries are used to studying scripture in the context of other scripture. That is why many of us want to be able to attach a note equally to more than one passage - something I honestly expected in Logos 4 - expected because to me it was a self-evident need.

However, there is a workable meta-solution: create a meta-guide that pulls together links to all the Passage Guides, Exegetical Guides, Word Studies, Sermons, Notes etc. for multiple scripture passages and allow us to add notes to the meta-guide just as we can to the Guides.

liturgical date as a "reference" that you could hang a note on), but would this address the basic problem? Would the duplication confuse things too much or be too cumbersome?

Most lectionary resources are built on liturgical date - including those available in Logos. Those from liturgical traditions are as comfortable with liturgical dates as the Southern Baptists are with chapter and verse. Lots of us know when the Woman at the Well, the Man Born Blind, or the Bread of Life Discourse are read and can possibly back into what Gospel they most likely occur in ... but chapter and verse? Surely you're kidding - I haven't a clue.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191931#Comment_191931

the fundamental difference is that Logos is set up for studying a single passage and building Bible studies and sermons on single passages. Those using to working with lectionaries are used to studying scripture in the context of other scripture. That is why many of us want to be able to attach a note equally to more than one passage - something I honestly expected in Logos 4 - expected because to me it was a self-evident need.

[Y]

Very well said MJ

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191931#Comment_191931

In other words, the Logos lectionary is organized like one of those annual paperback "missalettes",

Sorry, but I must disagree with you. The missalettes are printed for particular regions - you can't use a British missalette or a Canadian missalette or an Australian missalette in the US. Logos does not (and should not) attempt to tell us what the readings are for next Sunday ... Logos tells us what the most likely readings are for next Sunday.

I'm not sure where we disagree. I was merely drawing an analogy about how our lectionary resources are presently organized, not making any claims that they're authoritative or handle regional variations like a missalette. (Though the latter has more to do with the limitations of our data than with structural problems.) Like you say, it's a tool that tells you the most likely readings for the coming Sunday.

Obviously, you're looking for some larger changes in the way Logos works. I think even creating data types for all the liturgical calendars, to really be useful, would call for some deeper integration with other aspects of the software that would allow it to serve as a starting point or organizing principle for study. Speaking from my own experience, I agree that something like this this desirable, but it's a longer-term project.

In the short-term, I'm still wondering about my proposal for adding a complete listing of the readings, detached from secular calendar dates, to the lectionaries. Implemention would be relatively uncomplicated. Would this be helpful?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/192077#Comment_192077

In the short-term, I'm still wondering about my proposal for adding a complete listing of the readings, detached from secular calendar dates, to the lectionaries. Implemention would be relatively uncomplicated. Would this be helpful?

Yes, it would be very helpful - especially because it would allow the integration of the sanctoral cycle (feast days of saints) and the votive readings (optional never scheduled). I really don't want Logos to try to sort all the calendars out - at least until they have built up the market to support it. All the companies and websites that have tried to support more than one or two have found that it is a more thorny problem than they expect.

There are two relatively straight forward items that could make me say that Logos truly supports Scripture study for the liturgical churches, including Judaism:

1. a way to collect various Logos study elements of Scripture study together and add notes to this meta-level. It is perfectly fine if I have to enter the readings and title the meta-guide manually.

2. a way to see all possible dates including the sanctoral cycle and votive services; your dateless version is would work nicely It is also the appropriate approach for historical lectionaries

Those two items would be sufficient to make me happy. The next level of priorities would be:

1. support for lectionaries using the Jewish calendar

2. support for using multiple lectionaries in the current predicted readings mode (Sunday, week day, morning/evening prayer)

The final level which would make me very happy:

1. being able to select a lectionary entry and automatically feed the readings into the meta-guide

2. having a parallel lectionary function (as we have for translations)

3. having a pericope view that took pericopes from lectionaries rather than Bibles (historically the more common approach)

4. being able to give a starting date for any fixed day/length lectionary and have it simply repeat endlessly on the predictive calendar (a number of contemporary lectionaries are based on a 2 or 4 week cycle this could also handle topical reading plans)

At that point I'd actually rave about Logos lectionary support and try to talk all preachers and liturgists to get a copy[:D]

While I wish that lectionaries had been implemented based on liturgical date in that data modeling requires it, I don't think that is an appropriate allocation of Logos resources as this time. Once the currently scheduled Logos 4 features are complete, I suspect that items such as a rebuilt handout, lesson building, study templates etc. will be the appropriate next major high priority items. But I don't think that should prohibit adding more lectionary support based on the current model.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/192177#Comment_192177

I do NOT use lectionaries. [I do have one open to let me know what the rest of the Christian world is doing]

BUT as lectionaries are an important part of many Christian Churches it just makes sense that Logos would FULLY support them.

And that means that if a NOTE is attached to an entry then that note needs to show up on the correct CHURCH day [and not the calendar day].

Why is it a problem? – The lectionary item is linked to the CHURCH day and shows up on the correct calendar day. So if the note gets linked to the lectionary item why does it not show on the correct calendar day? [The same calendar day that the lectionary item shows up (once every 3 or 4 years as needed)]

(Or is the note getting linked to a calendar date rather than the lectionary item?)

The entry by MJ. Smith Replied: dated Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:10 PM seems to cover everything

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/192177#Comment_192177

Private note to MJ. Smith on Lectionaries: [This is her thread and it is ‘OLD’ so she is the only one that will read it] [Insert smile here] [Last post was more than a month ago]

Thanks to the Christmas and Black Friday Sales I have a complete set of the Lectionaries in Logos 4. I also added two sets of Lectionary Commentaries. Last week (Dec 23, 2010) ALL of the Lectionaries were updated. My Guess is that the Dates were updated so that the correct item would appear on the correct calendar date. (For 2011) [Define guess as assume, wild thought]

If Logos had a FULL Lectionary reader would those date fixes be not needed as the Lectionary Calendar programs would take care of showing the correct items on the correct real world date? [Checking my understanding of the ‘other’ calendars behind Lectionaries]

If that is correct then if Logos installed the ‘other’ calendars behind Lectionaries function they would never again need to update the Lectionaries at year end [The Lectionary reader would do the job] [Something about ‘liturgical date’ and I used the ‘other’ calendars behind Lectionaries. For details see] [http://community.logos.com/forums/p/25895/192177.aspx#192177]