Berkhof vs. Grudem

I have both and both are wonderful, but I tend to use Grudem's more often.

George Somsel said:

Jason Kuo said:

Hey all,

I've already got Grudem's Systematic Theology - would it be valuable to have Berkhof's as well? Or is there enough overlap in theological position and/or method to make it somewhat redundant? Just wondering since it's on special.

Thanks,
Jason 

I don't have Grudem and that quite deliberately.  I found that he has a tendency to interpret matters somewhat idiosyncratically.  I am referring specifically to his views on male / female relations.  He attempts to equate the gender usage in the GNT with physical genders which anyone who has any knowledge of the original languges knows is not a valid process.  If his interpretation of the text is thus faulty, I have no confidence in his other interpretations. 

With this "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" mentality I'm surprised you've found any systematics worth reading (have you?). I suppose you dismiss Köstenberger, Ware, Mohler, Sproul, Moo, Piper, and Carson as well?  After all, they are also complimentarians and must therefore, by your logic, be untrustworthy in all other theological matters as well.

Regarding the question asked, yes, I think you would find Berkhof to be useful as well.  I've been considering picking up a copy for the last several months and was excited to see it offered during the 12 days sale and gladly picked it up.

Chris Lohroff said:

With this "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" mentality I'm surprised you've found any systematics worth reading (have you?). I suppose you dismiss Köstenberger, Ware, Mohler, Sproul, Moo, Piper, and Carson as well?  After all, they are also complimentarians and must therefore, by your logic, be untrustworthy in all other theological matters as well.

Whether they are complementarians or not isn't the question.  The question is whether they reveal an abysmal lack of understanding of the Greek.  To be quite frank, I don't have any of those you mention.  I do have Aquinas, Calvin, Hodge, Barth.  I wish I had Berkhouwer, but at the time it was on prepub I couldn't afford to buy it.  I'm not a systematics guy to begin with.  My interest is in biblical theology.  I do, quite naturally, have my own theology, but that is a different story.

I should probably also note that we used Berhof when I was in seminary and at that time I purchased Berkhouwer -- in Dutch because it was cheaper.

Thanks for the clarification, George... and thanks for looking past my (inappropriate) tone to what I was trying to say.  Having just taught this chapter in our bible doctrine class at church, it seemed to me he relied more on the OT than the NT to support his position.  I'm not sure which specific items you are referring to which point out his abysmal lack of understanding of the Greek, but my sense is, after studying the topic pretty extensively, that most of the guys I listed get to the same conclusion using the same paths Grudem takes.

Thanks again for taking the high road with your response.  Wayne Grudem's ST has been instrumental in transforming my life over the past 2 years and for some reason I felt I needed to defend him.  I apologize for that.

Chris Lohroff said:

Thanks for the clarification, George... and thanks for looking past my (inappropriate) tone to what I was trying to say.  Having just taught this chapter in our bible doctrine class at church, it seemed to me he relied more on the OT than the NT to support his position.  I'm not sure which specific items you are referring to which point out his abysmal lack of understanding of the Greek, but my sense is, after studying the topic pretty extensively, that most of the guys I listed get to the same conclusion using the same paths Grudem takes.

Thanks again for taking the high road with your response.  Wayne Grudem's ST has been instrumental in transforming my life over the past 2 years and for some reason I felt I needed to defend him.  I apologize for that.

First, I don't attempt to maintain that Grudem has nothing good to say (especially since I have read his systematics).  I simply don't trust him on the basis of his attempt to use Greek improperly to establish his complementarian view.  I happened to be able to listen in to a debate regarding the use of gender neutral language with regard to translating the NT and found that his understanding of Greek was lacking which is why I mentioned the Greek.  It may be that he uses the OT, but I find that a problem as well.  In Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, etc.  I take Paul's exhortations to women to be silent in church to be sociologically motivated -- it was a male dominated society and as a bishop could not be one who was addicted to alcohol so also could women not act in such a manner as to bring disrepute upon the church.  Times have changed.  Women are not under the same subjection today.

Then I withdraw my prior apology as my harsh tone was appropriate! [:D]

Are you still in West Michigan?

Sadly, my basketball days are long over... and even before they were I wasn't much of a player.

George Somsel said:

Women are not under the same subjection today.

The Apostle Paul may have a disagreement with that. [6]   ( my last tantrum before retiring for the night )

Addressing the thread topic; I like Grudem's explanations but think Berkhof is much richer.

why aren't women under the same guidelines...did the Bible change?  Did I miss something?

It's not a cultural issue as Paul pointed out.  It's a creation issue.  Adam was created first and Eve was created as his helper.  Eve was deceived and then Adam sinned therefore Eve must come under Adam.  I haven't seen Scripture change, just culture.  Good thing there is one constant in this life, the Written Word of God.

nancy

who enjoys that her husband is head of the house

Kevin,

I know both sides of the argument.  I was once ordained in the AG Int'l but I could not stay that way when confronted with the "husband of one wife" requirement for elders nor the created order. 

If women are no longer under their husbands, do you then take the same step with that scripture and say that men are no longer subjected to Christ?  After all, it is the same passage.

I am submissive to my husband as head of the home and yet equal with him as far as salvation is concerned.  We are brothers and sisters in the Lord but just as in church the elders and pastors are over the congregation, for their benefit, so too in our microcosm of a picture of the church, in our home, Roberto is head.

nancy

Nancy,

This thread is not the place to hash out how I  (or anyone else) handles interpreting what the Bible says about family structure and what women can do in ministry. This issue definitely one the wedge issues in Christianity today and I have no interest in hijacking this thread with it. However, I would be willing to carry the discussion on via email. Drop me a line at beckerkr At Gmail dot com if you would like.