I GIVE UP
Four days lost, with the help of a lot of good people here on the Logos forum. Contact with the staff and technician taking over the control of the machine but not understanding the problem, indexed it again, but in vain. I think the Logos conceivers will have some more work if they want to conquer the Mac public.
Let's hope I will finally get an answer for the refund.
Thanks to those who tried to help..
Prof Goldman
Old Testament
Unviersity of Fribourg
Editorial Board of the Bibiia Hebraica
Comments
Is anyone monitoring this forum?
Gents (and maybe ladies, don't remember seeing any in this thread, but just in case), Things are beginning to degrade on this thread rather quickly. The truth is we should not have to be monitored by admins. I know this is not a "Christian" forum per se, but I would guess that since we are talking Bible software, we are all at least claiming to be Christ followers. Let me just say this vitriol is disconcerting. I believe we have now flogged this horse into decay. If you are unhappy with Logos, Mr. Pritchett has offered you your money back. If you prefer Mac over Windows or vice versa, are we willing to divide Christ over these matters? I have friendly banter with my friends over the fact that I use Mac and they use Windows, but come on guys, please. Keep in mind Ephesians 4:3 and Romans 15:7.
maybe ladies, don't remember seeing any in this thread
Just above your post is a lady: M J Smith is Martha, and she is a lady.
I have friendly banter with my friends over the fact that I use Mac and they use Windows, but come on guys, please.
Matthew has made friendly jabs at me in the past. He could have been misinterpreted. That is easy to do with this mode of communication.
Matthew has made friendly jabs at me in the past. He could have been misinterpreted.
Dear Jack
Thanks for your reply. Friendly jabs are one thing — I have given and got in that vein here and in other forums over many years. However I don't see how Mr Jones' comments can be interpreted in any other way but ad hominem and insulting.
Part of me regrets my last post to him, but the other part feels he should watch how he speaks in writing — jokes may be one thing with someone you know, but are easily misread with those you don't. Anyway, overall, I feel his manner was very inappropriate.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
Prof Goldman,
I think there may have been some issue with your index. You should have gotten search hits for your prior searches. If you can send me your diagnostic logs, I can take a look and see if there were any issues.
You will find a link here:http://community.logos.com/forums/t/25043.aspx for a utility which can compress your Log files suitably for posting to the forums.
Mobile Development Team Lead
Thank you for the proposal. Here is the log archive. I just dragged it into this field.
file:///Users/metoo/Desktop/LogosLogs%20Me%20Too%2020101229-001907.gz
Not sure this is the right thing to do, so I also use the join function:
7345.LogosLogs Me Too 20101229-001907.gz
Hope this will help.
Y. Goldman
That's exactly what I needed.
It looks like your library finished indexing at 21:56:31 your time. I can also see that your indexes had never fully finished so that would explain why you got no hits.
I wonder if you restarted L4 and tried to run a Basic search now for Peace in your Entire Library and see if you get hits. Similarly, if you try John Fidel's suggestion for searching original languages, you'll probably get hits now too.
Mobile Development Team Lead
Thank you for your message. Yes, the problem you raise is not solved, i.e.: why was the indexing never finished?
The one you mention was the last indexing initiated by your technician, which took roughly around 2 hours yesterday night. The first indexing had been given the whole night and was normally finisghed.
The basic search for peace was done without any problem, but this is not my main interest in Logos 4 "Original Language" package. I still do not get any result when entering Hebrew or Greek words searched in the Bible or Morph sections.
Anyway thank you very much for the try.
Sincerely,
Y. Goldman
Patrick,
From all I can see you have been extremely patient throughout this process and for that I would like to say thank you. Should you desire not to continue trouble shooting I would certainly understand, and I'm assuming that the help you have received thus far has gone over the "obvious" stuff so feel free to brush past my comment if you desire.
However I am curious as to what happens when your right click on a word in the ESV (or any interlinear translation or morphed Greek, Hebrew Text), selected the Lemma on the RIGHT and the Morph Search on the Left. I did this and initially got no results. Then I realized my range defaulted to my last search range (hate it, if I select from the right click menu, I want a search of the entire resource). For some reason every time I do a new search Judges is set to the range, then I change it to what I actually want and the next time I do a search Judges is usually selected. also, be sure the proper morphology is selected.
Dear Philip,
Thank you for the informations. I finally decided to erase entirely the software and asked for a refund. But I did not want to leave you without thanks for helping. This software showed to be much too complex for a man like me not willing to enter in subtle processes to search the Bible. The things escaped out my hands any time I searched for something. Though it is a little bit more austere and less rich in access to the English tools in particular, I am rather happy with Accordance finally.
All best wishes to you in the study of the Word of God..
Yohanan
Hmm...interesting post.
But let me add...everyone should give the Logos funnel a decent try :-)
I appreciate your heart Phillip and want you to know that I gave Logos the last year and change. Yet when I switched to Logos4 Mac a couple months ago, I quickly realized that the performance concerns were great enough that it was affecting my work flow and therefore adversely affecting my sermon prep. So that's why I finally threw up the white flag and declared defeat yesterday and switched.
What I would like to know from the developers is this:
1) Do you think it is ethically wrong to release a product that is not complete, is not optimised and quite frankly fool people into buying it when you know full well that it is riddled with bugs?
2) Do you think it is fair that people are paying you hundreds and hundreds of dollars for an unfinished beta product that we are effectively testers for?
3) Will you offer mac users any sort of discounts/compensation for the problems they have had over the past few months (or at least since the "Gold" release)?
I bought your product over a year ago. Initially I bought Logos 3 and was told that there was a mac version. The very next day Logos 4 came out and I was upgraded. Of course that is when all the problems started. I have never spent so much time on a companies website forum looking for ways to tweak software, increase spec etc.. etc... Having spent so much money on this product I am still extremely frustrated and angry that a Christian organisation can quite happily take your money and provide a sub standard, unfinished product. Your sales staff are also extremely happy to take my money and process my payment as soon as I send them an email. Again I find this pushy and unnecessary.
I am getting a little fed up of waiting for the Mac version to be complete because I can see the "potential" of the product. You need to sort this software out once and for all and stop treating us a testers.
Daniel
Daniel,
I'm sorry you are frustrated by the Mac release.
In the forums (and on our blog) you'll find long, detailed explanations of why we chose to release Logos 4 (for both Windows and Mac) when we did. You'll also find, on our web site and everywhere we discussed the products, clear and detailed explanations of the deficiencies of each release and our plans for when we'd fix them.
We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee.
To save you the research, though, I'll re-summarize quickly: We had more work we wanted to do on both products, but felt they were already easier to use and more powerful than the existing products we were then shipping, so we A) released them with full disclosure of the limitations, and a promise to continually upgrade them at no cost (which we have done, repeatedly),
we ensured that the existing products could run side-by-side, so no one was forced to upgrade to the new products before they felt they were ready, and no one was deprived of previously available features, and C) we continued to maintain our money-back guarantee.
(We have also stated clearly that we're designing for the future, not the past, and that the software requires a very recent machine to perform well. It's frustrating to read reviewers who say "it performs poorly on my Mac, which is only a few years old..." While it's not the choice every company makes, we do choose to implement power hungry features, anticipating that our platform will have a 5-8 year life, and knowing computing power doubles every 18 months. We believe it's a long-term benefit for the users, who appreciate that functionality. It just makes us not the right solution for the person with the 4 year old machine the first year we ship a new platform.)
The Windows version of Logos 4 is in excellent shape, has received (and is still receiving) performance improvements, now has "better than before" implementations of most "missing featuress" (printing, exporting, sentence diagramming, etc.).
The Mac version was behind -- fully disclosed a year ago -- but has just about caught up on feature parity, which users told us was the top priority. We are finishing the release of 4.2a on both platforms (it's in beta now), which delivers most of the parity and even some key optimizations. Now that we have gotten there, we are (as promised, and as planned) beginning an optimization phase to tune performance on the Mac.
1) is it ethically wrong? No, I don't believe so, for the reasons above. We've been up-front about the situation all along the way, and we aren't taking (or keeping) the money of any unsatisfied customers. I think it's inaccurate to says we "fool[ed]people into buying it."
2) Is it fair people pay hundreds and hundreds...? Yes. It's a voluntary transaction, with all the relevant details disclosed in advance, and you can un-do the transaction at your option. What's more fair than that?
3) Will we offer discounts/compensation, etc.? Sure. Email me at bob@logos.com with what you think is appropriate and we'll come to an agreement. I don't want any unhappy customers, and I can't sleep at night knowing you feel cheated. (I'm not being facetious -- my personal well-being really is tied to knowing that our customers are satisfied. Obviously I can't bend time -- if making you happy requires a perfect Mac product by 11 pm, I can't do that. But I can make sure I'm not holding your money if you aren't at least satisfied with what you have, or with our plan to get something better to you as soon as we can.)
In defense of the developers: It's not their fault. It's all my fault.
My developers are in a constant state of frustration as I push them to ship things before they are perfect. We need each other; they push for a perfect, bug-free, performant product, and I push for something to ship so they can be paid and feed their families.
I can assure you it's all my fault. I can also assure you that if we held to the standard requested, Logos 4 still wouldn't have shipped. Nor would it be shipping soon, because even though we're now just catching up to what some users consider "the minimum product we should have shipped," we're doing that with the much larger team and resources that shipping 14 months ago afforded us. If we'd held out for a "perfect product," I can guarantee that by now we would not have hired the 60+ people who've joined us since Logos 4 shipped and we would most likely have laid off part of our company, resulting in poorer service, slower development, low morale, and a possible exodus of key talent.
I hope this doesn't come across too harshly; your criticisms and frustrations are valid, and I take responsibility for not delivering what you wanted. (And I apologize if we failed to communicate the state of things clearly enough.) I hope you'll appreciate, though, my explanation. It's not intended as an excuse, but rather as a way to let you see some of the complicated choices we have to make, and why companies sometimes do things that seem like bad choices to us consumers on the outside.
(I, for example, wonder why they keep shipping tiny changes to a car each model year instead of buckling down and delivering the flying car users want. :-) Or at least (more reasonably), the electric car with gasoline-powered range and performance that charges in ten minutes and costs less. But I'm guessing it's a similar answer: they'd go out of business without those "new chrome, new radio!" model year changes during the 10+ years it will take to deliver the car I really want. And those intermediate releases may waste time and make it 11 years to get what I want, but the extra year is better than the car company going out of business.)
Thanks for your patience,
-- Bob