John: The Gospel of Belief

There is nothing that I can immediately find that would suggest that this newly published Logos title by Merrill Tenney (Eerdmans) was ever part of the NICNT, yet the assigned file name of NICNT64JN2 would suggest it was.

Can someone please clarify ?

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Kevin Becker

It was an older volume in the NICNT that was replaced by a newer one. The subtitle is probably the way to continue selling this work since it might be confusing to have 2 volume 64s.

see: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/446/4347.aspx#4347

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217985#Comment_217985

It was an older volume in the NICNT that was replaced by a newer one

I recognize that there have been a significant number of older NICNT volumes released recently, but I did not see the expected statement on the Logos page about it previously being part of NICNT (as had been stated for the other older volumes)
http://www.logos.com/product/7466/john-the-gospel-of-belief

Nor did I find it listed at Best Commentaries as being an older NICNT volume, although they list older volumes of similar vintage
http://www.bestcommentaries.com/series/new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament-nicnt/

Although Best Commentaries DO list it as being one of the best commentaries on John (but not as a NICNT volume)
http://www.bestcommentaries.com/category/john/ as if it were published in 1997 (as the Logos page also claims)
although the first edition seems to have been in 1948. There is nothing I can find to suggest that the 1997 publication is a revised edition of the 1948 work.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217985#Comment_217985

since it might be confusing to have 2 volume 64s.

It will be even more confusing once we get the new (2010) NICNT volume on the Gospel of John by J. Ramsey Michaels ...

http://www.bestcommentaries.com/book/5347/the-gospel-of-john-j-ramsey-michaels/

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218006#Comment_218006

I recognize that there have been a significant number of older NICNT volumes released recently, but I did not see the expected statement on the Logos page about it previously being part of NICNT (as had been stated for the other older volumes)

The series tag in my library indicates that it was part of the NIC

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218015#Comment_218015

When I look at the Bibliographic citation used by Logos it says:

Bibliographic Citation

Tenney, M. C. (1976). John: The Gospel of Belief. The New International Commentary on the Old and New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Yet when I look at Best Commentaries.com it says that the NICNT volume on the Gospel of John in 1971 was:
http://www.bestcommentaries.com/book/3659/the-gospel-according-to-john-leon-morris/

which is the one currently provided by Logos as the NICNT volume on the Gospel of John.

Is there some reference outside Logos that can confirm when the Tenney volume was part of NICNT?

Nord Zootman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218292#Comment_218292

I have that volume in hardback (yes - those still work). My edition is Copyright 1948 by Eerdmans, the ninth printing, 1970. There is nothing in the opening pages that states that this is part of any set. That doesn't prove the point, but it would be odd that there would not be any indication that this was part of a larger series.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218015#Comment_218015

The series tag in my library indicates that it was part of the NIC

However, I believe the series tag is incorrect.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218351#Comment_218351

The series tag in my library indicates that it was part of the NIC

However, I believe the series tag is incorrect.

Yeah, I've done some searching and looked at all of the works by Tenney listed by the Library of Congress. I no longer thing this is a superseded volume there just isn't the evidence for it being part of the series.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218355#Comment_218355

Yeah, I've done some searching and looked at all of the works by Tenney listed by the Library of Congress. I no longer thing this is a superseded volume there just isn't the evidence for it being part of the series.

I sent a message to Phil Gons and asked him to have someone check the series tag. He has already responded that someone will check.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218361#Comment_218361

Before it was named the New International Commentary it was the new London commentaries.

You will find that all the old NIC were listed as such before the change of name including Merrill C. Tenney. So Merrill C. Tenney commentary was part of the original series, see here http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+new+london+commentary&x=0&y=0#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=%22the+new+london+commentary%22&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A%22the+new+london+commentary%22

Look at the product detail on this link. http://www.amazon.com/John-Gospel-Merrill-C-TENNEY/dp/B002SY7T6E/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1296767949&sr=8-16

Anyway my hard back copy proves that it was part of the "New London commentary' which was later renamed NIC. Hope this helps.

Ted

Edit to include this link http://www.amazon.co.uk/John-Gospel-Belief-Analytic-Commentary/dp/B0028A98TE/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1296770485&sr=8-13

and this http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/qid=1296770407/ref=sr_gnr_fkmr0?ie=UTF8&node=&search-alias=aps&field-keywords=%26%2334%3BNew%20London%20commentary&ajr=3

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218365#Comment_218365

Thanks Ted: The story seems to be coming together:
The original copyright seems to have been 1948, and this version seems to by 1954 have been part of the New London Commentary on the New Testament.
Not sure yet as to when the New London Commentary became the NICNT.

By 1971 the NICNT volume on John was the volume currently included in the Logos NICNT, the Leon Morris volume.

The version used by Logos for the newly released John - Gospel of Belief was the 1976 version (no information yet as to what the differences might have been [if any in the body of the book itself] from the 1948 edition or New London Commentary version, but at the very least the 1976 edition did not include any information suggesting it was ever part of a series or major commentary set.)

Of all the older NICNT volumes recently released by Logos, this is the only one where it does NOT state on the Logos page that the volume was part of NICNT.
http://www.logos.com/product/7466/john-the-gospel-of-belief

The Tenney commentary on the Gospel of John remains a much valued work recommended at Best Commentaries:
http://www.bestcommentaries.com/category/john/ and Logos in no way represented in any advertizing (at least not in any that I saw) that this was one of the older NICNT volumes.
The current NICNT volume on the Gospel of John is now the J. Ramsey Michaels commentary (2010) and the Leon Morris version is becoming a rare find in hard copy http://www.bestcommentaries.com/book/5347/the-gospel-of-john-j-ramsey-michaels/
The opening sentence of the forward to Tenney's John - Gospel of Belief remains as true as ever...
Nearly three thousand years ago Solomon said that of the making of many books there was no end.

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218392#Comment_218392

The story seems to be coming together:

Hi everyone,

There's one more piece to this story to add.

Tenney's commentary on John was the original volume in the New London Commentary along with many of the older volumes of the NIC (Ridderbox on Galatians etc.). But when the New London Commentary series became the NIC, for some reason that I am yet to have tracked down, Tenney's commentary was not brought over into the new series with the rest of the volumes. As far as I can tell, Tenney's commentary never received the "New International Commentary" branding.

The issue grows more complicated by the fact that bestcommentaries.com lists it as NIC. That fact appears to have been take over wholesale from Carson's New Testament Commentary Survey. Based on what I've found so far, my guess is that Carson (and thus bestcommentaries.com) is simply viewing the New London series as identical to NIC, which is completely reasonable even though the situation is slightly more complex than that.

I'll be updating the product page today for Tenney's volume with information about its relationship to the NIC.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/219535#Comment_219535

Interesting indeed: the series tagging and other related identification for this volume may need to be adjusted if your research concludes that Tenny's volume was never a part of NIC (given that other than by author it is difficult to search for it another way currently). If a New London Commentary tag were to be used then what else might be similarly identified?

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/219564#Comment_219564

Interesting indeed: the series tagging and other related identification for this volume may need to be adjusted if your research concludes that Tenny's volume was never a part of NIC (given that other than by author it is difficult to search for it another way currently). If a New London Commentary tag were to be used then what else might be similarly identified?

The majority of the old NIC volumes were also part of the New London series. Tenney's is the only one that wasn't officially carried over to the NIC. So FF Bruce on Acts or Ridderbos on Galatians (as two examples) could technically be categorized as both NIC and New London. Functionally, though, I'd say its probably fine to simply have all NIC & NLC volumes labeled as NIC--especially since anyone who looks up Tenney's John in Carson's NT Survey or refers to bestcommentaries.com is going to expect an NIC designation.

What I've done (which I hope clarifies things on the website) is add two separate bits of text to the product pages. The old volumes that did received the NIC designation have these words:

The Epistle to the Romans (2 vols.) was originally a part of the New International Commentary Series on the Old and New Testament!

And Tenney's John has these words:

John: The Gospel of Belief was originally a part of the New International Commentary Series on the Old and New Testament under the series' original name: The New London Commentary on the New Testament.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/219586#Comment_219586

John: The Gospel of Belief was originally a part of the New International Commentary Series on the Old and New Testament under the series' original name: The New London Commentary on the New Testament.

Thanks for the research and clarification Michael. Given what you have uncovered about the history, for Tenney's John I think I would have said:

John: The Gospel of Belief was originally a part of the New London Commentary on the New Testament, a series which later became part of the New International Commentary Series on the Old and New Testament

Mike Childs

Wow. I thought Leon Morris was surely the first John Commentary in the NICNT. Learn something new every day.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/219915#Comment_219915

My wife used this book for a class on John back in 1973 or 74 in bible school. It did not look like a part of the NICNT at that time, but it was a good text book for her Gospel of John class, I am glad we will be able to have it in Logos now.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven