Logos 4 -- Administrator and Users

This post is not so much a worry now but for later. My university, like many other workplaces, has become increasingly cautious about administrator privileges, especially for logins connected to the domain and network. Currently I have an account on the computer for installing programs, which has administrator rights, but isn't connected to the domain and network. I have user account, my main account, which is connected to the domain and network, but which does not have administrator rights.

Since the beta installs in the Documents and Settings directory for the Installer account, it has to be run from that account. At the very least, it's inconvenient, since I need to run everything else from my main account. I presume that once Logos 4 is released, it will install in the normal programs directory and be available to my main user account. That's how it works in Logos 3. It means I have to move resources around, but that's not a problem in 3, and I suppose it won't be in 4.

So, I guess the question is: Can we expect the release version of Logos 4 to install in the normal programs directory and be available to other computer user accounts, on the same computer, than the one from which it is installed?

Thanks,
Dudley

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Comments

J.R. Miller

I have a question. Since your Logos software is only licensed for your use, why do you need multiple users to access it? Sorry if I am highjacking your thread, but I just did not see how your request had a legitimate value under the existing license agreement

Here is my thinking and please tell me if my scenario is completely impossible.

So far on this Beta forum, there have been tons of requests for ultimate user control and customization. Users want each computer we install the software on to work custom to that computer. Layouts for the laptop vs. the desktop. Layouts for home vs. the office. Some notes to sync. others to not sync. Diffrent home pages for different computers. Different sync options for every feature including books, highlighting, etc...

Now, if I add to that, the request being made for use under multiple accounts, then in the end we are asking Logos to design software where one single licensed copy of the software will be capable of offering independent settings on multiple computers with multiple accounts.
In this scenario, assuming Logos grants every user request. I could install one licensed copy on my church computer. One on every other pastor's computer. one on each of my families computers and one for cousin Bill and each one of these users could create their own notes, highlights and layouts that would essentially let them use the software independent of all other users. Except when I buy a new book, that would get pushed to each user who could then use the resource only paid for one time.

Now I am in NO WAY suggesting this is your interest, but Logos has stated that software piracy is right now a costly loss for them. And while I am confident the intentions of all the beta testers is good, it does not take much imagination to see how this get get out of hand quickly to allow for abuse and outright theft of the software and its use.

Maybe the solution is to do what other companies like Microsoft do. Write one simple version of the software that can ONLY operate on one computer and then require everyone buy a multi-site license for different machines.

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14817#Comment_14817

Joe, I think you are misunderstanding both my post and general business computer protocol. The various accounts on one computer are simply for security purposes, and it is generally expected that there is one real user for the computer. At least that's what I'm talking about. Almost any business computer today will have such accounts for IT access and the like. And, it is generally the case that software installs such that it can be accessed by one or any of these accounts. Very often the main account for running programs, in fact, does not have installation or administrator privileges. My post was posing a serious question regarding a rather common business situation. Let me reiterate. I am not talking about shared computers and more than one user in the sense of more than one person using the software.

Dave Hooton

I presume that once Logos 4 is released, it will install in the normal programs directory and be available to my main user account. That's how it works in Logos 3. It means I have to move resources around, but that's not a problem in 3, and I suppose it won't be in 4.

So, I guess the question is: Can we expect the release version of Logos 4 to install in the normal programs directory and be available to other computer user accounts, on the same computer, than the one from which it is installed?

It would be good to have Logos clarify this.

DominicM

Since the beta installs in the Documents and Settings directory for the Installer account, it has to be run from that account. At the very least, it's inconvenient, since I need to run everything else from my main account. I presume that once Logos 4 is released, it will install in the normal programs directory and be available to my main user account. That's how it works in Logos 3. It means I have to move resources around, but that's not a problem in 3, and I suppose it won't be in 4.
So, I guess the question is: Can we expect the release version of Logos 4 to install in the normal programs directory and be available to other computer user accounts, on the same computer, than the one from which it is installed?

The Program is installed here: C: \Users\USERNAME\AppData\Local\Logos4, only your data is in user docs so as it stands, and I am sure Logos will clarify, but as I see it, L4 accessable only on installer account

Did you try installing it in your user area, using the "Install/Run Progam as" elevation, its a right click option on the setup if I remember properly

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14888#Comment_14888

The Program is installed here: C: \Users\USERNAME\AppData\Local\Logos4, only your data is in user docs so as it stands, and I am sure Logos will clarify, but as I see it, L4 accessable only on installer account

Yes, but I doubt it is going to be a final folder for Logos to be installed. It would be very unusual IMHO.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14907#Comment_14907

The Program is installed here: C: \Users\USERNAME\AppData\Local\Logos4, only your data is in user docs so as it stands, and I am sure Logos will clarify, but as I see it, L4 accessable only on installer account

Yes, but I doubt it is going to be a final folder for Logos to be installed. It would be very unusual IMHO.

I wouldnt be - its quite normal within Vista to write stuff here theses days, as writing to Program Files Directory now needs an elevated level of security (Administrator), where as here is the default place for anything that doesnt have the correct elevation (i.e.programs running as user. not administrator)

Bob Pritchett

So, I guess the question is: Can we expect the release version of Logos 4 to install in the normal programs directory and be available to other computer user accounts, on the same computer, than the one from which it is installed?

You're seeing the final behavior. In an earlier thread (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/1560.aspx) we provided more explanation; the simple answer is we don't want to require permission elevation everytime we install, update, etc.

This is becoming common, as was pointed out, and is what Google Chrome does, for example.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14967#Comment_14967

So, I guess the question is: Can we expect the release version of Logos 4 to install in the normal programs directory and be available to other computer user accounts, on the same computer, than the one from which it is installed?

You're seeing the final behavior. In an earlier thread (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/1560.aspx) we provided more explanation; the simple answer is we don't want to require permission elevation everytime we install, update, etc.

This is becoming common, as was pointed out, and is what Google Chrome does, for example.

OK, I always though the standard is Program Files and Program Data. I am glad to learn something new. I have no problem with that location. Thank you Bob for the explanation.

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14888#Comment_14888

Did you try installing it in your user area, using the "Install/Run Progam as" elevation, its a right click option on the setup if I remember properly

I'm running XP Pro SP3, and I am unaware of and cannot find this option. I tried installing in my user account, but I received a permissions error, and I see no way to elevate permissions. I hope I am missing something. If, as Bob says, 4 will install only in the user account, and there is no way to elevate my user account to allow installation in it on XP, this could be a deal breaker. It would mean no real way to run Logos alongside my other applications with which I need it to interoperate.

I would love some clarity about 1) whether I am missing away to handle this in XP and 2) if there isn't, that there is for certain a way to handle it in Vista or Windows 7. I don't see corporate IT moving anywhere but toward more security, so it would be important to know if corporate machines that have user accounts with limited privileges are going to be left out. Again, just to be clear, I am not talking about machines that are shared. I am talking about a machine with one user and one main limited user account, and two other accounts, one with which IT can use as an administrator, and one which I can, which is separated from the domain and network, but will allow me to install programs.

Sorry to be beating this to death, but just as Bob finds Logos in a Catch 22, I'm wondering if I'm in one.

Thanks for everyone's patience,
Dudley

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15009#Comment_15009

I have an identical concern and set-up it seems. A "tech" savvy person has set up our home network (DSL for internet & wireless router for in-home connectivity etc) My machine with the Logos application also runs on XP PRO. In order for this machine to administer my wife's tower-XP Home (which has her own copy of Logos) and the laptop-Vista Home (which shares my copy), 3 user accounts were placed on my tower. I only use the one (log-in protected) admin user account. The other two computers each have two user accounts, one of which is log-in protected.

Steve

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15009#Comment_15009

I'm running XP Pro SP3, and I am unaware of and cannot find this option. I tried installing in my user account, but I received a permissions error, and I see no way to elevate permissions. I hope I am missing something. If, as Bob says, 4 will install only in the user account, and there is no way to elevate my user account to allow installation in it on XP, this could be a deal breaker.

Use your Admin account to temporarily change your user account to an Admin account. After installing software change the account back to Limited. With Vista and Windows 7 a Standard (or Limited) account can install programs provided it can satisfy the "elevation" prompt requesting Administrator details e.g. password.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15023#Comment_15023

My machine with the Logos application also runs on XP PRO. In order for this machine to administer my wife's tower-XP Home (which has her own copy of Logos) and the laptop-Vista Home (which shares my copy), 3 user accounts were placed on my tower. I only use the one (log-in protected) admin user account. The other two computers each have two user accounts, one of which is log-in protected.

From the above I cannot understand how you administer and share "Logos" (what version?), but "log-in protection" does not decide installation rights in Win XP. A Limited user account cannot install software (check this in Control Panel | User Accounts). See my previous response for a workaround.

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15009#Comment_15009

Did you try installing it in your user area, using the "Install/Run Progam as" elevation, its a right click option on the setup if I remember properly

I'm running XP Pro SP3, and I am unaware of and cannot find this option. I tried installing in my user account, but I received a permissions error, and I see no way to elevate permissions.

Hi Dudley,

Since Logos 4 installs to your user directory, which you should have full access to, it shouldn't ask for the same permissions that are required when installing to Program Files. Were you installing using the Beta 1 DVD, or trying to install Beta 3 online?

Thanks,
Melissa

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15118#Comment_15118

Did you try installing it in your user area, using the "Install/Run Progam as" elevation, its a right click option on the setup if I remember properly

I'm running XP Pro SP3, and I am unaware of and cannot find this option. I tried installing in my user account, but I received a permissions error, and I see no way to elevate permissions.

Hi Dudley,

Since Logos 4 installs to your user directory, which you should have full access to, it shouldn't ask for the same permissions that are required when installing to Program Files. Were you installing using the Beta 1 DVD, or trying to install Beta 3 online?

Thanks,
Melissa

Thanks,
Melissa. I'm going to see what IT can tell me tomorrow. I thought I
had the permissions issues sorted out by 1) making sure that my own
user account has full permission in 'documents and settings' and 2)
trying to install w/ 'run as' and selecting the Installer user account.

I am trying
to install from the web stub. I'm now getting

a Microsoft Visual C
Runtime error that tells me that the application has requested Runtime
to terminate in an unusual way.
When I click 'Okay', I get a Logos 4 error box that says setup has encountered a problem. It says: Offset 0001e771.

Once I've talked with IT, I will report anything new. In the meantime, if this illuminates anything, that would be great.

Dudley

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/15218#Comment_15218

Did you try installing it in your user area, using the "Install/Run Progam as" elevation, its a right click option on the setup if I remember properly

I'm running XP Pro SP3, and I am unaware of and cannot find this option. I tried installing in my user account, but I received a permissions error, and I see no way to elevate permissions.

Hi Dudley,

Since Logos 4 installs to your user directory, which you should have full access to, it shouldn't ask for the same permissions that are required when installing to Program Files. Were you installing using the Beta 1 DVD, or trying to install Beta 3 online?

Thanks,
Melissa

Thanks,
Melissa. I'm going to see what IT can tell me tomorrow. I thought I
had the permissions issues sorted out by 1) making sure that my own
user account has full permission in 'documents and settings' and 2)
trying to install w/ 'run as' and selecting the Installer user account.

I am trying
to install from the web stub. I'm now getting

a Microsoft Visual C
Runtime error that tells me that the application has requested Runtime
to terminate in an unusual way.

When I click 'Okay', I get a Logos 4 error box that says setup has encountered a problem. It says: Offset 0001e771.

Once I've talked with IT, I will report anything new. In the meantime, if this illuminates anything, that would be great.

Dudley

I've checked this out with IT, and it appears that the university mandated user level group policies will potentially frustrate any attempt to elevate the permissions for this install. I'm continuing to follow up with them.

A couple of questions they have posed are 1) can you tell us from the program perspective what the Visual C error is related to, and 2) can the programmers tell us if there is a particular directory that if it were given higher privileges would solve the problem. At least so far, because the university security mandates will not allow a change in the group policies for users, it' looks as though some kind of workaround will be required.

Dudley

Dudley Rose

As an update on this thread, I would like to report my largely successful install and running of Beta4. The computer is an XP SP3 w/ 1) an installer local machine user account (which does not connect to our network and domain) and 2) a limited permissions user account, connected to the network and domain, from which I must run programs.

I first tried to install from the installer account to C;|Logos4 and then run it from the regular user account. This worked fine, but when I launched Logos4 from C:|logos4, it went through the whole install process again and duplicated all the resources in my regular account documents and settings. That meant I had apparently 2 installations, though I'm pretty sure the one C:\ was not the live one. In any case, I thought this was a much too messy installation.
I uninstalled everything and tried installing from my regular account using 'run as'. I ended up with the same Visual C errors as I did when I tried to do this with Beta3.
I then tried installing from the installer account but installing in documents and settings in my regular account: C:\Documents and Settings\drose\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4
- This installed fine.
- When I got to the login pop-up I canceled
- Then I logged off the Installer account and logged on the user account, put a Logos4.exe shortcut on the desktop, and launched
- From there the rest of the install, updating and indexing proceeded just fine.
- The program is all in the above directory except for a few .msi files that are in the analogous directory in the Installer account: C:\Documents and Settings\HDSInstaller\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4

Since updates and indexing worked fine, I'm hoping I'm home free, with Logos installed for but one user account, and it the one I need it in. The proof will be if there are no troubles with later updates, but I am hopeful.

Dudley

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/16057#Comment_16057

I first tried to install from the installer account to C;|Logos4 and then run it from the regular user account. This worked fine, but when I launched Logos4 from C:|logos4, it went through the whole install process again and duplicated all the resources in my regular account documents and settings.

I noticed that as well. Perhaps Logos can comment what this duplication is intended to achieve.

Dudley Rose

Back to the drawing board.

Just to rehearse the challenge

My computer is configured by university policies.
My user account has limited privileges.
The computer has an Installer account with administrator privileges.
- This account does not connect to the domain or network.
- Its only function is to allow the installation of programs that are run from my user account.
If I install Logos to the default location, I have to run it from the Installer account, which means that I can't use it while using other programs, which isn't a feasible solution.
I had some success with a fresh install of Beta 4, installing from the Installer account but to the Documents and settings area of the user account.
I was able to run Logos from the user account

However, the update from Beta 4 to 5 failed (I was logged on to the user account). Pop-up indicated I did not have the required privileges. At that point, I got messages that the indexing failed and essentially I couldn't continue from either account with any updating. That is, logging on to the Installer account didn't work, either.

5277.logos4setup.zip">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/69/5277.logos4setup.zip:550:0]

1411.Logos4Indexer.zip">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/69/1411.Logos4Indexer.zip:550:0]

My plan at this point is to uninstall and remove any Logos 4 detritus I can, and then try to begin again. Any suggestions are welcome.

Dudley

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17383#Comment_17383

Thanks Dudley. I've got the log files. Our developers are working on a solution for this issue. ~ Melissa

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17391#Comment_17391

Thank you!

Bryan Albert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17383#Comment_17383

Back to the drawing board.

Just to rehearse the challenge

My computer is configured by university policies.

My user account has limited privileges.

The computer has an Installer account with administrator privileges.
This account does not connect to the domain or network.

Its only function is to allow the installation of programs that are run from my user account.

If I install Logos to the default location, I have to run it from the Installer account, which means that I can't use it while using other programs, which isn't a feasible solution.

I had some success with a fresh install of Beta 4, installing from the Installer account but to the Documents and settings area of the user account.

I was able to run Logos from the user account

However, the update from Beta 4 to 5 failed (I was logged on to the user account). Pop-up indicated I did not have the required privileges. At that point, I got messages that the indexing failed and essentially I couldn't continue from either account with any updating. That is, logging on to the Installer account didn't work, either.

5277.logos4setup.zip">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/69/5277.logos4setup.zip:550:0]

1411.Logos4Indexer.zip">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/69/1411.Logos4Indexer.zip:550:0]

My plan at this point is to uninstall and remove any Logos 4 detritus I can, and then try to begin again. Any suggestions are welcome.

Dudley

Dudley,

We looked over your log files and we think we know what's going on. There are two issues: one has to do with elevation for a standard user account on XP in order to install a Logos 4 Prerequisites update. This should be fixed with Beta 6. The other has to do with a failure in the download process, which has left your indexer in a broken state. To fix it, please follow these steps:

Delete the file C:\Documents and Settings\drose\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4\Data\s1be3c3d.tyj\DownloadManager\DownloadManager.db, which will clear the broken state.
Restart Logos 4, which should restart the indexer, which should finish downloading and installing the resource updates.

If that doesn't work, we'd like to look at the the logos4indexer.log file to see where it's breaking. You could then follow these steps to get your Logos 4 running again with the updated resources you already have downloaded:

Open Logos 4, open "Program Settings" and make sure that "Automatically download updates" is set to "No". This will keep the indexer from crashing by trying to download further updates.
Delete C:\Documents and Settings\drose\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4\Data\s1be3c3d.tyj\UpdateManager\Updates.db.
Delete C:\Documents and Settings\drose\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4\Data\s1be3c3d.tyj\DownloadManager\DownloadManager.db.
Restart Logos 4, which should restart the indexer and process the downloaded resources.
Don't click the "Download" button in "Program Settings" lest the indexer crash. You will probably need to upgrade to Beta 6 manually, when it is released, by downloading and running Logos4Setup.exe. This will fix the bug and you should then be able to download any pending updates successfully.

It looks like your system was successfully upgraded to Beta 5, so once you get your library reindexed, you should be good to go until Beta 6 is released.

Thanks for your help!

Bryan

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17896#Comment_17896

Thanks, Bryan. I did a fresh install, and all is well. I've turned off auto-update and will await instructions when Beta 6 is released.

Dudley

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17896#Comment_17896

You will probably need to upgrade to Beta 6 manually, when it is released, by downloading and running Logos4Setup.exe. This will fix the bug and you should then be able to download any pending updates successfully.

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

Things seem to be well. I had installed Beta 5 in documents and settings of the drose account (but installed from the HDSInstaller account). When Beta 6 showed up,

I logged on to the HDSInstaller account
I uninstalled the prerequisites
I downloaded the current setup file and ran it
I opened Logos 4 and selected 'download updates'
Everything installed, updated and indexed correctly
I then logged on to my regular drose (non-administrator) account and opened Logos 4
All seems fine.

What I haven't done yet is to try installing updates from the drose account. When new updates come, I will try that to see if the elevations work correctly. However, it occurs to me that even if it doesn't, at this point, I should be okay. That is

I have it set to not automatically download updates
When I'm alerted that updates are available, I could just log on to the HDSInstaller account and install them
It wouldn't be nearly as convenient as installing them from my regular drose account, but it would be workable.

Does all this sound right to you?

Thanks,
Dudley

Bryan Albert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19029#Comment_19029

Hi Bryan,

Things seem to be well. I had installed Beta 5 in documents and settings of the drose account (but installed from the HDSInstaller account). When Beta 6 showed up,

I logged on to the HDSInstaller account

I uninstalled the prerequisites

I downloaded the current setup file and ran it

I opened Logos 4 and selected 'download updates'

Everything installed, updated and indexed correctly

I then logged on to my regular drose (non-administrator) account and opened Logos 4

All seems fine.

What I haven't done yet is to try installing updates from the drose account. When new updates come, I will try that to see if the elevations work correctly. However, it occurs to me that even if it doesn't, at this point, I should be okay. That is

I have it set to not automatically download updates

When I'm alerted that updates are available, I could just log on to the HDSInstaller account and install them

It wouldn't be nearly as convenient as installing them from my regular drose account, but it would be workable.

Does all this sound right to you?

Thanks,
Dudley

Dudley,

Yes, that sounds about right, with a few clarifications. There are three scenarios I see. Ideally, you should be able to just install future updates from your drose account. That is, if Logos 4 tells you that updates are available, you should be able to just install them. If a prerequisites update were required, you would be prompted for elevation, you'd validate with your HDInstaller credentials, then Windows Installer would be able to install the per-machine prerequisites. Setup would continue the installation of the per-user Logos 4 updates non-elevated.

I'm suspecting, however, that if your network administrators don't want per-machine installations taking place while you're connected to the domain and the network, they may have blocked elevated installation altogether with group policies, so that even with elevation you couldn't get a per-machine install to work. In that case, Setup would fail gracefully and you'd need to log in as your HDInstaller user and run the update again. Note that you should not need to uninstall anything nor download anything—just run Logos 4. It should prompt you to install updates, verify the elevated portion of the install with a UAC dialog and so on. You could even finish the install logged in as HDInstaller and let Logos 4 install resource updates, index and so on, as you did this time, so long as you signed into Logos with the same Logos User account you normally use.

The third scenario is that the group policies won't allow any installation whatsoever, and that even a simple, per-user update without a prerequisites update would fail. I don't believe this is the case, because I think you've had some automatic updates succeed. In this case, you'd need to do as in scenario two every time. You could shut down the indexer and close Logos 4 then log in as your normal user to index, though, so that you could use the program in its normal environment while indexing.

In any case, you shouldn't need to (and shouldn't) uninstall anything before updating, you shouldn't need to download anything special and Logos 4 should handle launching all updates.

Thanks a lot for your help in figuring this all out.

Bryan

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19064#Comment_19064

Perfect. Thanks so much. I'll let you know which of the scenarios seems to apply and how it works on the next update.

Dudley

Dudley Rose

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19064#Comment_19064

Hi Bryan,

The Beta 7 updates went just fine. So I think the only question remaining is whether I will need to use the HDSInstaller account if prerequisites need to be installed, and that wouldn't be much of a problem if, as you say, the elevation attempt from the drose account fails gracefully. Thanks so much for all the work on this!

Dudley

Harry Hahne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/17383#Comment_17383

I want to add my vote for a change in the installation location and rights required. I want to be able to install with an administrator account and have the program accessible from all user accounts. I have 2 situations in which this is important:

1. I administrate a group of computers at our school that are available to students. There are strict group policies that restrict what students can do with their account. The present configuration simply will not work in this scenario and will create an administrative nightmare. At our main campus there are hundreds of computers used by faculty and staff that have very limited user rights.

2. On my home computer, several people use the computer with personal accounts. I want each person to have access to the program with their own personal settings, saved searches, workspaces, etc.

From a security standpoint separating the program from personal settings files is a best practice. Version 3 kept user settings separate from the program and resources. This much preferred.

Harry Hahne