Learning Biblical Greek and Hebrew

I am a new Logos user who is pursuing an MDiv. I am doing my coursework online due to other obligations which make it difficult for me to attend residential courses. However, I am very interested in learning Hebrew and Greek.

I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages? If so, how much help will it be in that respect? I'm just having a hard time discerning exactly what the series is supposed to teach me. In case it is pertinent, I own the L4 Scholar's Library.

Thank you all very much for your help!

-Eric

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TCBlack

I haven't got the resource so others will give more complete answers.

However the set, as I understand it, will not teach you every aspect of the languages but will focus on basics and concepts. The alphabet, and how to comprehend properly the various lexica and linguistic terminology. I get the feeling it would be an excellent platform for further studies.

Jack Caviness

I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages?

Having worked about half-way through the Hebrew videos, I would say the resource is oriented more toward Logos usage than learning the language. Dr Heiser does describe the function and meaning of the various grammatical units. I have found no information on word formation which is the part of the Hebrew language that I found to be most difficult.

L4 does the parsing for you, so I guess Dr Heiser did not consider that to be necessary for this series. I believe this series would help you use the language tools in Logos, but it would not help you read and interpret the Hebrew Bible outside of Logos.

I have not looked at the Greek videos, but I assume the same type of information is presented there. Good for L4 usage, but not much help with a print Bible.

Rosie Perera

There are some introductory Greek and Hebrew textbooks available in Logos, some of which could be a good supplement to the DVDs. None of them are available in Scholar's though, I'm pretty sure. Here, for example, is my Learning Hebrew collection. I haven't yet done a corresponding one for Greek:

Fred Chapman

I have watched all of the videos (Hebrew and Greek) a couple of times and plan to set aside time to actually go through again more methodically, taking notes and doing som exercises on my own. They are not intended to help you learn the languages, rather help you become familiar with some aspects of the grammar and, as Jack said, help you understand how L4 can help you to study the orginal language without knowing it. They are very useful and informative and you may find they help you understand some things about Hebrew and Greek that would enhance your other efforts.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

There are some introductory Greek and Hebrew textbooks available in Logos, some of which could be a good supplement to the DVDs. None of them are available in Scholar's though, I'm pretty sure. Here, for example, is my Learning Hebrew collection. I haven't yet done a corresponding one for Greek:

Looking at Logos base package comparison, noticed:

Beginning Biblical Hebrew in 4 packages (Original Languages + Scholar's Gold and higher)

Biblical Hebrew for Beginners in 1 package (Portfolio)

A Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar in 6 packages (Original Languages and higher)

Building Your Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary in 5 packages (Original Languages + Scholar's Silver and higher)

The First Hebrew Primer: Textbook, Answer Book, and Audio Companion in 1 package (Portfolio)

Gesenius Hebrew Grammar 2nd English Edition in 5 packages (Original Languages + Scholar's Silver and higher)

Hebrew Syntax in 6 packages (Original Languages and higher)

Linguistic Analysis of Biblical Hebrew in 1 package (Portfolio)

Understanding BHS in 4 packages (Scholar's Silver and higher)

Keep Smiling [:)]

Pastor Michael Huffman

Having taken a traditional Greek class in Seminary, I find the DVD's a great help. I find traditional Greek classes (parsing charts, Dipthongs, etc.) real waste of time. Because, as my most contemporary Greek professor told us (who had a Doctrate in language), in order for you to keep up with the memorization that the Greek Parsing charts mandates, you will have to continually review the parsing charts and most pastors (if they are like me) just do not have the time to do that. So, I find the DVDs to be very helpful, as far as, reminding me of things learned in seminary. It goes in pretty good detail of the parts of speech and how they effect Bible translation and interpretation.

They said that when you complete the DVD courses, you will have obtained (if you start with no prior knowledge), a three year class equivilant in knowledge. Others have said that it teaches you to use Greek and Hebrew with Logos; and that is true. But hey if you are like me I have too much money invested in Logos to go and use another software. So while I am using Logos, I might as well learn to use the Greek and Hebrew tools in Logos a little better.

On another note; however, it is priced WAY to high. I obtained mine during pre-pub for $199., but now I believe it is priced at 499. Is it helpful? Very much so. Is it priced over the top? Very much so. Only you can determine usage versus price. It does carry a 30 day mony back guarantee.

Suzy

Hi Eric and welcome to the forums.

I have found everyone to be really helpful here and an excellent source of information on all things Logos.

This is off topic from your original question but I am also an external student and would suggest that before finalising the purchase of any other Logos resources that you check with them about academic pricing as most items are discounted for students. Phillip Malouf at academic sales has been very helpful to me in this regard. His email contact is: pmalouf@logos.com. Alternatively you could ring Logos. The student discounts have been really helpful to me as I live in a rural area with no easy access to a theological library and Logos gives me the opportunity to acquire very valuable study and research resources at reasonable prices for which I am very grateful.

All the best with your studies

Sue

George Somsel

I am a new Logos user who is pursuing an MDiv. I am doing my coursework online due to other obligations which make it difficult for me to attend residential courses. However, I am very interested in learning Hebrew and Greek.

I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages? If so, how much help will it be in that respect? I'm just having a hard time discerning exactly what the series is supposed to teach me. In case it is pertinent, I own the L4 Scholar's Library.

Thank you all very much for your help!

-Eric

I'm somewhat old school on learning languages. I learned Greek from Crosby and Schaeffer Introduction to Greek (classical Greek) and Hebrew from Davidson's Hebrew Grammar. I am not really attuned to some of the new methods such as the videos published by Logos and will therefore say nothing regarding them. What I will say is that language study is something which requires persistence and regular work. You will not learn by osmosis so don't put a book under your seat or play tapes while you sleep. It is WORK. I think one of the most important factors to learning languages ("dead" languages) is the regular reading of texts. You should also acquire good tools. A carpenter would not attempt to build a house with a child's toolbox, and you cannot learn a language well with poor grammars and poor lexicons. Some grammars are very limited in what they tell you about the various forms. This is satisfactory AS A BEGINNING. But like Paul, you need to begin to eat meat if you wish to grow strong. Get good grammars and good lexicons -- this particularly means that you should not rely on Strong's or Barclay Newman. Get BDAG and HALOT (and / or Brown, Driver, Briggs). Don't simply look in the lexicon and pick whatever gloss suits your fancy. Examine the context and see how the different glosses given are used in passages cited and see how your text compares. Above all, read, read, READ.

Pedro

I am also pursuing an MDiv and almost finished first year Greek (BBG from Mounce). I did get the DVDs and started to watch them, but I have to agree with George on this being a test in concentration, study and perseverance. I found the following parsing/quiz program amazingly useful. Keep it up and do not dismay!

http://paradigmsmasterpro.com/

I am kind of scared, because next Semester (Sep 2011) I will be taking second year Greek (perhaps Wallace) and first year Hebrew! ouch. [:S]

God bless,

Jack Caviness

I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages? If so, how much help will it be in that respect? I'm just having a hard time discerning exactly what the series is supposed to teach me. In case it is pertinent, I own the L4 Scholar's Library.

The videos are primarily designed to provide instruction in using the language tools available in L4. The Hebrew one does provide some instruction in basic grammar, and I will assume that the Greek one does as will. However, using them in conjunction with traditional language courses may lead to more confusion than light. (Just my opinion, YMMV). I feel that the marketing of these videos promised far more than they can deliver concerning what they teach.

Don't simply look in the lexicon and pick whatever gloss suits your fancy. Examine the context and see how the different glosses given are used in passages cited and see how your text compares

Dr Heiser also makes this point in the Learn to Use Hebrew video series. He also strongly encourages students to avoid Strong's.

David Paul

Dr Heiser also makes this point in the Learn to Use Hebrew video series. He also strongly encourages students to avoid Strong's.

That's very highbrow and all, but I have found a few instances where Strong's is the ONLY lexicon to give a proper explanation of certain words. Of course, there are thousands of cases where Strong's gives the exact same definitions found in HALOT, BDB, BDAG, Gesenius, etc.

I agree that Strong's has "issues"--but so do the other lexicons. I think there's a bit of snootiness behind the "Strong's sucks" mentality. Strong's is "common"--it is quoted by lots of people--and it is used (misused) precisely because it is so prevalent. That means that many of those using it won't have the knowledge or discipline to use it properly and accurately. But that doesn't mean the resource is worthless or unusable. It is simply one additional resource that Bible students have at their disposal.

George Somsel

Dr Heiser also makes this point in the Learn to Use Hebrew video series. He also strongly encourages students to avoid Strong's.

That's very highbrow and all, but I have found a few instances where Strong's is the ONLY lexicon to give a proper explanation of certain words. Of course, there are thousands of cases where Strong's gives the exact same definitions found in HALOT, BDB, BDAG, Gesenius, etc.

I agree with Michael H. How do you determine that "Strong's is the ONLY lexicon to give a proper explanation of certain words"? Apparently you think you know more than Gesenius or Brown, Driver and Briggs or Koehler, Baumgartner and Stamm or Baur, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker if you can set yourself up as being capable to judge their work. So, what do you do with Strong's -- pick the gloss that gives you your MOST FAVORITE interpretation or do you toss a coin?

MJ. Smith

I think there's a bit of snootiness behind the "Strong's sucks" mentality.

I agree with you. But not for the reasons you'd like. I don't know Greek or Hebrew. I figure that if I can't even read enough Greek to find a word alphabetically, I probably have zero basis for judging the validity of a definition. I say that having spent plenty of time deep in a dictionary which was alphabetic by root not word - think go, gone, gocart, went, begone ... all under a single entry. I liken Strongs to an Oxford English dictionary accessed by number ... so I go "Huh?' On the other hand, the group that is fond of Strongs is free to use it - no skin off my back.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages?

Having worked about half-way through the Hebrew videos, I would say the resource is oriented more toward Logos usage than learning the language. Dr Heiser does describe the function and meaning of the various grammatical units. I have found no information on word formation which is the part of the Hebrew language that I found to be most difficult.

L4 does the parsing for you, so I guess Dr Heiser did not consider that to be necessary for this series. I believe this series would help you use the language tools in Logos, but it would not help you read and interpret the Hebrew Bible outside of Logos.

I have not looked at the Greek videos, but I assume the same type of information is presented there. Good for L4 usage, but not much help with a print Bible.

Since Logos 4 handles parsing (via morphologically tagged resources), Greek videos assist with grammatical importance and insights.

Logos 4 has Clause Visualization resources that visually show grammatical relationship along with optional discourse analysis.

Logos wiki has http://wiki.logos.com/Visual_Filter with some Greek and Hebrew highlighting possibilities.

Wiki http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters has more extensive visual filter highlighting examples.

Keep Smiling [:)]

T.P. Johnston

I am working through the Hebrew videos at present. They are indeed quite helpful in discovering what can be done (rather impressively) with Logos 4 resources. Dr. Heiser does cover some very basic Hebrew grammar, providing bare essentials to enable effectively utilizing Logos 4. It is very excellent that he encourages users to make their own observations of the text, using the Logos 4 tools and resources. What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

Jack Caviness

What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

I am in complete agreement.

George Somsel

I am working through the Hebrew videos at present. They are indeed quite helpful in discovering what can be done (rather impressively) with Logos 4 resources. Dr. Heiser does cover some very basic Hebrew grammar, providing bare essentials to enable effectively utilizing Logos 4. It is very excellent that he encourages users to make their own observations of the text, using the Logos 4 tools and resources. What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

I'm curious about what you consider to be his theological bias. I don't have the set since I learned my Hebrew at least 3 years ago. [;)]

William

I'm curious about what you consider to be his theological bias.

me to. i am slowly working through a grammer to learn the language

T.P. Johnston

Without starting a theological debate on the forum (that is certainly not its purpose), let me just say that while I've never met Dr. Heiser or communicated with him in any way, from the couple of examples I am recalling, there was a definite suggestion of Covenant/Replacement theology. That is certainly a very commonly held theological view. My point is that expressing that kind of view in teaching the Using Hebrew videos is not the most helpful thing. I've been a pastor for 40 years and picked up on it immediately. Others might adopt the conclusion simply because Dr. Heiser (a Hebrew scholar) said it without reaching their own conclusions. That was my point. And I do really appreciate Dr. Heiser encouraging his viewers to observe the text for themselves. They just need to do the same with regard to his conclusions in the examples he sets forth.

MJD

Which L4 books does Dr Heiser use whilst teaching this course??

Jack Caviness

Which L4 books does Dr Heiser use whilst teaching this course??

It has been a while since I watched, but I seem to remember "Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar" and "Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology". He is the author of the latter one.

Rick Williams

It was Logos that prompted me to take formal classes in Greek and Hebrew and after taking 2 years of Greek and 1 and a half of Hebrew, the videos came out and I bought them on pre-pub. Earlier in my life I had 4 years of Latin, the result of a rather esoteric secondary education.

For what my opinion is worth, the videos will do little to help you with the typical requirements of a Greek or Hebrew class which is largely alphabet, word form study etc. That said, the videos are really designed to allow you do exegesis of original language text using the tools and resources available in Logos. I think the claim that those tools put you on fairly even footing with someone having 3 years of formal language study for that purpose (exegesis) is probably correct but not in the ability to read text in the original Hebrew or Greek. The tools take you to interpreting and understanding what is said bypassing the mechanical requirements of memorizing hundreds if not thousands of words and assoicated word ending forms.

The vaslue of the video really depends on what you want out of original language study. If it is just a matter of getting through the pro forma requirment for your degree, then I think the class requirments will keep you occupied. But if you are wishing to take your understanding of the language past what you are willing to invest in formal language training, then that is another matter.

I will say that personally I wasn't aware that the videos were now selling for $500. I purchased them at a much lower price and honestly if they had been $500 they may have remained on my wish list, but likely never purchased.

George Somsel

Earlier in my life I had 4 years of Latin, the result of a rather esoteric secondary education.

You too ? It's a rare high school that offers Latin today (or even when I was in HS.

Jack Caviness

It's a rare high school that offers Latin today (or even when I was in HS.

I thought they taught in Latin then [8-|]

Rick gave a good evaluation of this resource. I purchased mine on pre-pub for $169, and I consider them worth that, but I would not spend $500 for them.

George Somsel

I thought they taught in Latin then

Yes, Cicero was my major professor. Many years later I took an advanced course in poetics from Martial. [;)]

Rick Williams

When I took Latin, it wasn't a dead language....g Actually a private college prep school. It was either Latin or French and with Latin I didn't have to run around speaking it.

Keith Larson

It's a rare high school that offers Latin today

That is too bad. I found this quote today from the Polis Institute today (http://www.polisjerusalem.org/).

"Two sources have been nourishing the Western World ever since ancient times: the Judeo-Christian culture and the Greek and Latin literature. However, most of this heritage remains inaccessible to the general public.

For example, the treaties of Galen, who has bequeathed us more than 20,000 pages of medical knowledge in Greek, have been translated entirely only into Latin and Arabic. Less than ten percent of Galen’s writings are now available in translation to the major European languages. Likewise, only a small part of the writings of Alcuin, the architect of the Carolingian Renaissance, is accessible in any language other than Latin.

More than half of the writings from Ancient and Medieval times can be read today only in Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Arabic. Hence, the 21st century man finds himself unable to understand and to assimilate his spiritual heritage, as it has become impossible for him to access his cultural roots. For this reason we consider languages to be an indispensable gateway to Human sciences."

I did not realize that over 50% of the writings of the Ancient and Medieval periods have not been translated into any modern language. Those languages may be "dead" but they are far from useless!

BTW my high school daughter is taking Latin. She is using Lingua Latina and loves it. I think it would be exciting if someone did something like this for Koine Greek. Perhaps a story of a family in Galilee at the time of Jesus. In the later chapters you could include actual quotations from the gospels. In addition, to teaching Greek it would be an excellent way of teaching about first century Jewish culture.

George Somsel

BTW my high school daughter is taking Latin. She is using Lingua Latina and loves it. I think it would be exciting if someone did something like this for Koine Greek. Perhaps a story of a family in Galilee at the time of Jesus. In the later chapters you could include actual quotations from the gospels. In addition, to teaching Greek it would be an excellent way of teaching about first century Jewish culture.

How about something like this (or simply this) ?

http://www.archive.org/details/greekboyathomest01rousuoft