Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

BobbyTerhune said:

I think the issue is Zondervan losing money not Logos. As I stated earlier, Bob P has said most of their customers don't buy extra books beyond their initial purchase. So, not much of a win for Logos on that front.

But this has more to do with them buying Pradis in order to get access to Zondervan titles.  When I bought my one Zondervan title on Pradis I decided that I would not buy another one.  However, when I bought my first Logos (technically ebible) product I loved it so much that I wanted more and go the scholar's library.

Daniel DeVilder said:

curious about the overlap, if any, of Logos' "pre-pub" price for Z products and Z's offering of some undisclosed discount to current Pradis Customers.  Could there be a scenario where the books are published, the pre-pub price vanishes, and THEN Z decides to offer a discount price that is higher than what the Logos prepub price was

Aren't the possibilities already complicated and confusing enough with what we do know (or think we maybe might think we know)?  

It reminds me of the old   "Who's on first?"   "Yes."    "I mean the fellow's name."     "Who."    "The guy on first..."   routine.

It's enough to make a guy's head hurt if he thinks about it too much.

As many have said, this is a business decision.  That decision involves MANY factors, both re current costs, future revenues, and legal obligations.

From the customer's point of view, they have already paid for a version of the product.  Some people have paid for a hardcopy AND a Pradis version.  No one likes to have to pony up a second (or third) time for the same "core" product.

But, hey, customers - how many times have you bought a 2nd or Revised edtion of a hardcopy book (or Bible) because of a relatively small percentages of changes made to it ... sometimes just formatting.  Witness the genesis of the Scofield Bible, for instance.  Why did you buy it, and pay FULL price all over again for it?  Presumably because you felt the INCREMENTAL additions to it were worth it.

The Pradis edition of the book was just a form of "upgrade" to the hardcopy, when viewed this way.  Some people who already owned the hardcopy ALSO bought it from Z, since the added features of an electronic copy outweighed the additional cost.  That is a buyer's decision.  Z did put in effort and investment to make it available ... so they deserve to be paid for it.  There was no practical way for them to offer "tradeins" of electronic-for-hardcopy ... the hardcopies (used) would have been of no value to them. 

Now we have the upgrade to the Logos edition of the same product.  OK ... it definitely offers new features and capabilities ... we all have great confidence in Logos' tools and capabilities in that regard.  Logos is DEFINITELY putting significant effort into the conversion of the Pradis files to Libronix format.  Sure, some of it can be done in "batch mode", but since L offers a lot more keylinking and Topical capabilities than P, from that perspective it's a new ball game.

Logos deserves, imho, EXACTLY the same profit margin for their work on this that they get for any other ebook they publish.  So, from that perspective, the upgrade should NOT make L bite the bullet.

But hey ... wait a minute here ... this is a BUSINESS decision.  Why did L want to do business with Rupert's group, anyway?  Certainly not familial ties ;~) ... it was simply because Z owns the rights to a LOT of good titles that will benefit the Christian community ... and that's L's goal ... to offer EVERYTHING, eventually, through their platform.  But, L is not a charity ... they make business decisions like anyone else.

This is quite similar to how a business approaches R&D costs ... or how they deal with moving overseas ... or how they handle buying out another company.  I've been involved in all three, and believe me it is NOT simple, it is NOT clearcut, and it is NOT without much emotional baggage that these things get pulled off.  So, there are eggshells and thumbtacks all over the place.

L wants not only to get those titles for OUR use ... but also for the health and future of THEIR company.  So, if you consider this massive rewrite of the keylinks from that perspective, it's like R&D or a buyout ... the costs need to be absorbed and spread over several years' expected future revenues.  That is, Logos DOES deserve to be paid for their work, but that payment should NOT necessarily be "up front", since they are benefitting bigtime from a longterm perspective.

Keep in mind how this software business stuff works ... generally speaking, all the "manufacturing" is only done ONCE.  All the "raw materials" are only purchased ONCE.  From then on out, after licensing fees are covered, it's all GRAVY.  So, imho, L ought to make sure their costs are covered (that's just good stewardship), but they should view that as occuring gradually over the course of the next five or even ten years (yep ... the Z deal definitely will increase L's revenues going out that far).

But what about Rupert's crew?  What should they be getting out of this?  Weeeelll ... they are getting a LOT, just by shifting their titles over to the PRIMO platform ... primo by many miles .... and really unlikely to be overtaken.  This will CLEARLY help Z's sales, and will CLEARLY (let's not miss this, folks) allow Z to REDUCE their costs since they don't have to finance software devel or support any more.  Z is the big winner, here, from what I can see.  They are not losing ANYTHING, and they are gaining a lot.  Yes, they are providing the titles to L, and that is worth a lot.  BUT, only if L does all the work.

One very interesting thing about business is the VALUE of a CUSTOMER LIST.  Many lawsuits about non-compete clauses center around this.  Oft-times a business is purchased by competitor JUST TO GET THE CUSTOMERS ... the plants and products are incidental.  It's safe to say that L's customer list, esp their REPEAT customer list, leave's Pradis' in the dust.

So, which is worth more? The titles, or the customer list?  Well, apparently L and Z have hashed that out ... and I hope that it was considered an even-steven exchange.

Now, we're back again to good ole Z ... what have they LOST?  Nothing.  They've TRADED titles for customers. A good deal.  What are their COSTS?  Nothing.  What are their SAVINGS.  A lot ... reduced staff, reduced marketing expenses, reduced warrantee exposure.

Nutshell ... Z ought to pay L to do all the work to convert the product.  That would be fair ... from a cost/revenue standpoint, of course just from my uninformed perspective, since I haven't seen the balance sheets or revenue projections yadda yadda.

But - what about the CUSTOMER?  Ah, yes, that unimportant little pipsqueak that is at the business-end of the lash.  The customer has only THREE things in their power:

1. Their pocketbook.  They can buy, or not buy.  They can upgrade, or not upgrade. 

2. Their mouths.  They can complain, or applaud.  They can tell ALL their friends (and their congregations and denominations - naaawww ;~)

3. Their attorneys.  If Z has provided a product (Pradis) with "reasonable expectation of continuance" of support for future use, and if it can be clearly demonstrated that the value of that product (the ebook) is cut off by THEIR (Z's) actions in a conscious, premeditated way ... WOW ... sounds like a big class-action lawsuit just waiting to happen.  And just think how EASY it would be for those attorneys to subpoena Rupert's files re who bought what, to find their list of class-action clients?

I mention #3 only because probably most of the people on this thread have not thought of it, since I suspect most of them have not had to wade thru the mud in the secular corporate business world to see how things happen.  However, I'm sure that Z has considered this, and I'm sure it affects their decisions to some degree.  So, it's worth mentioning.

All in all ... the longterm costs to Z to give a freebie upgrade to registered P users would be a DROP IN THE BUCKET.  The good will they would generate ... and believe me they NEED to generate some good will ... would cost them MUCH more through any other means.  And due to the arguments I provided earlier, L's costs should ALSO be covered by Z.  That is, if Z is smart, long term, about all this.

I'm sad to say that as an ORGANIZATION, it's unlikely that Z will be operating based on Biblical principles.  I'm glad that the individuals who are working with Dan and Bob are apparently straight-up guys ... but the corporate culture always dictates in these situations.  So, my discussion above has been almost purely from that perspective.

I personally never do business or make decisions in this kind of way.  But after three decades in secular business, domestically and internationally, I've seen the way things work and hope that this perspective might somehow be useful.

Not a simple problem.

Nutshell:  At the boardroom table, this has EVERYTHING to do with desired future perceptions and income streams, and LITTLE to do with current costs and licenses.

Thank God for virtual machines!  I may be running Pradis on one in the years to come.  If Zondervan's upgrade price is anything like it's been in the past that's the route I'll choose.  I spent several hundred dollars on Pradis resources and I refuse to pay anything more than a minimal fee to upgrade them to Logos. In fact, I would have to swallow hard to do that.  When Wordsearch switched from step to cross there were no fees unless your resources were from a third party.  Even then the fees were very reasonable. I recognize others feel differently and are willing to pay more but that's my stand!  

Daniel if those EBC files are step you can run them in xp with a couple of programs.  Wordsearch 5 runs them and so does ESword.  

Would it be possible to have a program that would convert the Pradis files into Libronix files?  I'd even accept this if it only provided the limited amount of notes and cross references that come with Pradis products rather then the extensive ones found in Logos. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable fee for a program that would take my registered EBC Commentary, NIV Application Commentary, and other products and convert them to Libronix and move them into my Logos library.  I could convince myself I'm not paying for something I have already if this were the case. If the price becomes prohibitive and the discounts are merely "token" I will run Pradis till it dies. Then, I would only be interested in the EBC and NIV Application Commentary.  Like others in here, I simply can't afford to repurchase something I already have.  

Chris Hulshof

On the issue of the longevity of Pradis and whether there will be a necessity to transfer to Zondervan products on Logos........ does anyone know whether existing Pradis products will run on Windows 7?

                                     Andrew

Richard - Thanks, that's reassuring!

                    Andrew

Thomas Black said:

It may not be entirely pragmatic but the textbook response to this is that "in 5-10 and even 50 years the existing Pradis Engine will still work on the same windows platform you're using now."

I know that new Operating Systems will break Pradis eventually and all of that, but the answer is that pradis should continue to function for the near future.

Tom,

That assumes it functioned properly the first time around, which it didn't. That is why Pradis is being abandoned.

I maintain legacy hardware & operating systems and still run "ancient" software that still works as it should.. I still have a lot of STEP books and access them as much as Pradis.You can imagine my happiness with Windows 7.Even though I have my virtual machines, I would gladly surrender all my Pradis software to get a reasonable price on Zondervan titles in Logos. (Scholar Edition Library 5.1, NIDOTTE, NIDNTT, EBC among others.)

DanielWFrancis said:

I have empathy with your situation and have found myself in a similar situation many times. I hope you do get a discount. But to take another point of view, did you get a discount when you upgraded from a paperback student bible to a hard cover, and then another when you got a leather one? I do know it;s not the exact same thing but to the publishers it is. You bought a copy if you want a copy that has been distributed in a different format, you will have to pay the exact same thing or ore for the upgraded or fancier edition. Zondervan and Nelson have often been guilty of updating the dust jackets and sometimes even the names of products and I am sure that gets them a few people who think it's new, or want a copy that has been updated (minor corrections and or a new name). Even the tyndale commentaries have just got new covers recently. I suppose I have gotten a bit off topic but as I pointed out before a new cover  (engine) isn't anyones right, it;s something that our consumer society desires, is it something we need (I know that when we upgrade our computers the old software may not work but if if worked properly when we first bought it, we have little recourse of our rights),

It would be useful to compare apples to apples.

A digital copy of a book cannot be compared to a print copy.

Changes in format i.e. from hardcover to paperback or from one cover design to another or even changes is the presentation of the work (such as what IVP is doing with the print edition of the TOTC and TNTC) do not impact one's ability to use the resources in the short or long term. The one thing you need is to take good care of your books and have good eyesight. Print resources do not require post sale support by the publisher (this is why we will never hear Zondervan announcing that support for the print edition of EBC will cease in 8 months, not that I would care J). When I buy a book in print format, the purchase simultaneously marks the beginning and the end of my relationship concerning this resource with the publisher as no support is needed or expected.

The same cannot be said of digital resources. Good eyesight and good maintenance of the electronic files are not enough. Other factors come into play: The platform in which the product was published often needs to be updated and optimized. Patches need to be issued to insure compatibility with a host of hardware and software. Such compatibility becomes even more critical when new generation of hardware and software replace the older ones (chief concern being compatibility with the OS).

In the first case, you do not need the publisher/vendor to enjoy your print resources for years or even for decades to come (you do not even need the Papyri maker’s input  to read a 3000 year old ancient document)

In the second case, you are almost always depending on the publishers/ creator of the electronic platform for continuous usage of the product past a few years. In some cases it takes a new OS to render the product unusable, in others, it makes take longer; but the bottom line is the same, soon or later, your electronic resources will become unusable when the platform in which it is published becomes obsolete.

By deciding to stop supporting Pradis, Zondervan has issued a death sentence for the resources published in that format (and thus decided that I will eventually lose the hundreds and hundreds of dollars that I invested in Pradis unless I somehow migrate to the new platform that is supported). it could take as long as Windows 7 is supported or sold or it could be in a few decades (less likely), but what is certain is that there will soon come a point where my Pradis resources will be inaccessible and my investment will be worth zero no matter how well I maintain the resources (in sharp contrast to print books that will easily outlive me; which is ironic since electronic media is supposed to last longer than print media).

What many of us Pradis owners do not like is the programmed obsolescence that Zondervan is imposing on our investment. It is not like Zondervan is going out of business and cannot support Pradis.

We would have little reasons to complain if Zondervan has decided to continue the support for Pradis (with more than lip service); then and only then, your comparison would be valid

Because I wanted to protect my investment against obsolescence, I have upgraded from STEPS; to Pradis 5 and then to Pradis 6. I have substantially invested in Zondervan electronic products.

But it has come to a point where, with my limited resources, I have to say enough is enough. I will not continue to pay just to continue using the resources I already own .

Like some have said in this thread, I am not looking for new shiny features (they would be welcome but are not necessary); I just want to preserve my investment and be a good steward

I like Zondervan products (this is why I purchased so many of them in the first place); but if this turns out to be a non-reciprocal relationship, I will cut my loses and seriously reassess my relationship with Zondervan.

As someone else mentioned, this is a unique opportunity for Zondervan to build a lot of goodwill with long time and faithful customers (following Logos’ example). This issue is a test that will reveal Zondervan’s true-self and determine what can be expected of the company in the future.

Taking good care of loyal customer does not even have to be a Christian virtue, it is also  good business  practice, especially in a business where having repeat customer is crucial

BobbyTerhune said:

If we have to buy the titles directly from Zondervan to get the discount it would seem Logos is out of the picture as far as helping us out. I wonder if the prepub price is already going to be the best price? I say this because in the past "Zondervan Upgrades" have been cheaper elsewhere.

Bobby

 I only wish Zondervan was paying attention to the current Logos 4 roll-out.

If Zondervan priced their titles at deep discount probably 90% of the Logos user base would buy the collection. Since the delivery price is tiny and the same work will be done for 1 sale or 10,000 , selling a hundred thousand units at a modest profit is better than selling 500 units at overinflated pricing.

How about it Zondervan?

How are we going to be able to prove to Zondervan that we have old Pradis software? I don't think I have the actual box anymore.

I purchased Pradis a few years ago because I wanted to go from my print resources to electronic.  I doubt that I will purchase the same material again just to have it in Logos format as much as I would prefer that.  I will have to be content in opening up Pradis if I need to refer to the Expositor's.

I also have an older version of Quick Verse, 8.0 I think.  That also has materials I would love for Logos such as Keil and MacArthur's commentaries.  Looks like the same boat for that also.

don

DanPritchett said:

Not yet. The "powers that be" at Zondervan are actually reading over all the feedback on this forum to inform their decision.

 

Dan, could you or someone else please tell me why people in Australia cannot purchase the NIV or TNIV? I would LOVE to use it for sermon prep as I preach from the TNIV but according to CS, the decision is entirely Zondervan's call. I own the NIV and TNIV on Pradis and it drives me nuts that I can't use it in Logos...

WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS MY FRUSTRATION WITH THIS! [8o|] But I know it isn't Logos' call [:)]

Many, thanks

Not in the Original Languages pack (which I own) and I still cant download them!

I am not so sure about that. I remember reading somewhere that they were removed from all overseas packages - could well be wrong on that though.

DanPritchett said:

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Dan,

Any idea when these titles will be available? I know I'm pressing you for a date but I just don't know what, in terms of time, "under development" really means. I've had several products preordered only to cancel the orders because it took so long. For instance the Hebrew module has been "under development" for about a year. I had preordered it but  just got tired of waiting. Are we to expect the Zondervan titles will have a similar time span under development?

MarkStevens said:

Dan, could you or someone else please tell me why people in Australia cannot purchase the NIV or TNIV? I would LOVE to use it for sermon prep as I preach from the TNIV but according to CS, the decision is entirely Zondervan's call. I own the NIV and TNIV on Pradis and it drives me nuts that I can't use it in Logos...

Mark,

Check out my post under the thread titled "NIV outside Americas?"

You will find the NIV with "Anglisized"/"Anglicized" spelling available in Logos format, sold on eBay by a UK seller who ships worldwide. (cheap, too)

You CAN have the NIV in Logos! (In Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Hong Kong, Great Britain..)

(tw: the seller still lists 7 available for the next 12 hours. Search "Complete Holy Bible (NIV - Anglicised) on CD Rom for PC"    I am not in any way connected to the seller,  just trying to help my friends across the waters. [:-*]  )

Then why am I unable to puirchase the Niv/TNIV package? Bob, Dan, Rupert?

Thanks Dan, I wish I had known that before I upgraded to OL ver 4 - I may have consifdered it. Having said that, I did just purchase the WBC set you offered on special so the "minister for finance" may not be so keen at this stage. I might wait and see what happens next year. If it doesn't happen then I will consider an upgrade.

Thanks for the reply!