Local Backup and Restore

Once again the lack of local backup and restore may have done someone in big time. (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35566.aspx ).

There is a UserVoice suggestion to allow for local backup and restore of user generated files like the Notes file here: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1852009-create-an-offline-backup-and-restore-capability-f?ref=title

This has basically gathered no votes, but needs some visibility for Logos to take a more serious look at this problem. If you have some UserVoice votes left, please give a few to this request. If you have never visited UserVoice, take a look, log in with your Logos email address and name and you'll get a total of ten votes to use on all UserVoice proposals. You can also add your own proposal.

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Kenny Larsen

Out of interest would a complete HD clone allow you to recover your notes?

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267556#Comment_267556

I backup my entire L4 directory about twice a month (sometimes more) to an external hd. Using this http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers I have been able to load the entire program from this backup.

What additional back-up options do we need?

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267566#Comment_267566

What additional back-up options do we need?

You have a star under your picture. You and I are not average users.

My answer to your question? Something in Logos itself. Most users have no idea where their Logos folders are and may believe the cloud is taking care of them. They also have never heard of the wiki article you are referring to.

Logos also has no documentation anywhere I can find on how to ensure our personal documents are safe.

Logos needs to go the extra mile here because of the way they save (and seemingly try to hide from the average user) their individual files. If I get a corrupted Word document that isn't nice, but at least all my other Word files are OK. One corrupted Note file can cause me to loose all of them. I really see that as unacceptable without offering an easy to use backup option (then it would be my bad if I didn't use it).

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267566#Comment_267566

What additional back-up options do we need?

I'd like a way to batch export/import documents and collections. As it is right now, restoring a backed-up Logos directory isn't always a solution because the cloud is in control, and it will sync problems back down onto your restored system. I.e., if you've deleted a bunch of notes from a note file, the note file is saved to the cloud with the deletions, and restoring the local copy won't prevent the newer version on the Logos servers from overwriting it.

Also, a cloud-based sync is not a backup. It's just a mirror image of the current state. But if a previous state is needed, then Logos' current scheme provides no protection. I personally like the cloud, but it's not sufficient.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267572#Comment_267572

I personally like the cloud, but it's not sufficient.

Various issues have shown that it is not sufficient so I agree that a user-friendly backup/restore is required. Note that it will put the onus on the user to recognise that these are my documents as they will replace whatever the Cloud thinks is current.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267605#Comment_267605

Various issues have shown that it is not sufficient so I agree that a user-friendly backup/restore is required.

My first choice would be to be able to do a roll-back in the cloud. It would permit one to minimize the lost data without requiring very frequent backups.

Kenny Larsen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267606#Comment_267606

I agree with MJ, if we're going cloud then automatic nightly snapshots (maybe holding a months worth of changes) in the cloud that can be restored would be the way forward. Assuming Logos has the same redundancy, or similar, to amazons AWS storage space could be saved by just backing up the changes and only doing a repeat full backup every week or so.

This is similar to the way the university I'm at does things and it seems to work quite well.

Kenny

Jack Caviness

Once again the lack of local backup and restore may have done someone in big time. (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35566.aspx ).

George's problem coupled with Bradley's responses is very troublesome. It should give every Logos user cause for concern.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267606#Comment_267606

I agree with MJ on a cloud-rollback. Most users are probably not that involved with the details of the software, and only need assist when an unexpected disaster occurs. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if rollback data already exists since the data is fairly small.

For myself, I agree with Mark that local backup would be good. I really feel for both George and Mark. Notes are the life of the program.

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267640#Comment_267640

The lack of a backup option is why I haven't started putting notes in Logos -- it's just too scary for me.

Coming from the Mac side of things, we have Time Machine with it's hourly backups -- for that reason I would love a local backup option.

The cloud rollback option would also be good. I can see it working similar to Dropbox's document backup system.

I added my 3 votes to the UserVoice suggestion that Mark mentioned in the first post: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1852009-create-an-offline-backup-and-restore-capability-f?ref=title

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267624#Comment_267624

George's problem coupled with Bradley's responses is very troublesome

In fairness, George's original problem with Word Find could have been fixed as Bradley explained without removing the document Info + index files that caused the loss of his Notes. However, the issue does expose the fragility of the Cloud's backup of our documents.

tom

Once again the lack of local backup and restore may have done someone in big time. (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35566.aspx ).

There is a UserVoice suggestion to allow for local backup and restore of user generated files like the Notes file here: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1852009-create-an-offline-backup-and-restore-capability-f?ref=title

This has basically gathered no votes, but needs some visibility for Logos to take a more serious look at this problem. If you have some UserVoice votes left, please give a few to this request. If you have never visited UserVoice, take a look, log in with your Logos email address and name and you'll get a total of ten votes to use on all UserVoice proposals. You can also add your own proposal.

This one of several reasons why I still use L3 for my notes. I simply do not trust Logos (and every other company out there) with my data. I personally back up my data to three different hard drives at home.

IMHO, Logos should allow us to back up and restore our data just like I can with every other program.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267640#Comment_267640

Notes are the life of the program.

I couldn't agree more. We can restore everything (licenses, resources, even the program itself) EXCEPT user created files that are unique and very precious. I feel that LOGOS is really underestimating the value of user content.

BriM

The UserVoice thing is interesting - I hadn't seen that before (I'm pretty new to Logos).

It seems that I've ten votes available but I can only find one thing to vote on. Anyone care to tell me where I can find the full list of options I might want to vote for?

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267652#Comment_267652

I simply do not trust Logos (and every other company out there) with my data

My data is more important to me than any company out there values it. So, I play it safe and go two and sometimes, three deep with my personal files, doc's, pdf's and all the fruit of my studies over the years.

IMHO, Logos should allow us to back up and restore our data just like I can with every other program

It would be nice but I don't think this will happen. However, something needs to be done to satisfy the user community since this is a serious issue as expressed by others in this thread.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269251#Comment_269251

Anyone care to tell me where I can find the full list of options I might want to vote for?

First sign-in with your Logos Email address and then you should see some tabs like Top ideas, hot, new. Scroll down to select other pages in that tab.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/267568#Comment_267568

Most users have no idea where their Logos folders are and may believe the cloud is taking care of them

And this is fine as long as everything is working as planned, I think we all agree that what the 'cloud' does it does very well the big issue is that it is not a backup and when things go wrong it is difficult to know what is happening.

I think that there are a few things that could be done that would improve things significanlty. I would like to think that these would be easy to implement but a lot will depend on how the current system is designed.

Allow users to define a number of recovery points (I think that 4 would be enough), create a simple interface so that we can reset our documents to one of our recovery points and give us two options:
1. Scheduled - we define a schedule and Logos automatically generates the recovery point.
2. Manual - a menu option or command that we can enter to create a recovery point.
When we login and there are no files stored locally, rather than simply starting the sync process let the user know what is happening, When I had a failure during one of the Betas all of my files disappeared, I started to panic but as it was late I left my PC on and went to bed. In the morning everything was back as it should be. The issue was not the process but the lack of communication during the process all I needed was a message that said something like "local files missing cloud sync activated" or possibly one that gave me the option not to restore.
For those who are backing up the files that are being synched it would be nice to have a sync suspend/resume/refresh command so that these files can be restored and the sync process would know to use the current local data as the master.

One thing fore sure is that this area needs to be given some serious thought to make sure that the user data management tools are appropriate for a high end Bible research tool.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269247#Comment_269247

I feel that LOGOS is really underestimating the value of user content.

When L4 came out, I said Logos gave their users the middle finger when it comes to user's data. I lost soooo much data going from L3 to L4 that it is not funny.

Logos has continually and solely focus on resources because this is where they get their income. This being said, if Logos continues to forget the most important data that a user has is the data the user enters into her/his software, users will ...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269269#Comment_269269

I think that there are a few things that could be done that would improve things significanlty. I would like to think that these would be easy to implement but a lot will depend on how the current system is designed.

Excellent plan, Graham.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269269#Comment_269269

When we login and there are no files stored locally, rather than simply starting the sync process let the user know what is happening,

Yes! We know that documents are downloaded automatically when the \Documents folder is missing but Logos needs to be transparent about situations where it thinks that local documents have been deleted and has removed them from the server. This thread was begun after a user deleted a single database and lost all their documents. Upon logging-in a clear choice should have been available and the answer would have been "Yes - recover documents from server".

Allow users to define a number of recovery points

There are a lot of ramifications for a user to define how many and arbitrarily choose to roll-back. If Logos should choose to implement recovery points then a choice could be made available for potential disaster scenarios, but not otherwise.

For those who are backing up the files that are being synched it would be nice to have a sync suspend/resume/refresh command so that these files can be restored and the sync process would know to use the current local data as the master.

"those" is now the user performing a local backup/restore?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269311#Comment_269311

There are a lot of ramifications for a user to define how many and arbitrarily choose to roll-back. If Logos should choose to implement recovery points then a choice could be made available for potential disaster scenarios, but not otherwise.

Absolutely

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269311#Comment_269311

There are a lot of ramifications for a user to define how many and arbitrarily choose to roll-back

I totally agree but there are also serious ramifications of having no other recovery point than the current state of your system! Lets be honest the current 'cloud' implementation is a means of moving data between systems that I use for Logos. My current reality is that I have a single system so I get to sync my data with a Logos server and my Notebook.

I have successfully recovered using the cloud once and in this instance it worked as I needed to recover to my then current state. However it was not a pleasant experience because I had no idea what was happening. To date I have not lost any files due to system or user error but I do know that when/if this event occurs the current sync facility will be as useful as a chocolate teapot!

For those who are backing up the files that are being synched it would be nice to have a sync suspend/resume/refresh command so that these files can be restored and the sync process would know to use the current local data as the master.

"those" is now the user performing a local backup/restore?

I believe that there are a number of us backing up the files that are being managed by the sync process in the hope that if everything fails we can restore them to the appropriate location and recover the data. My point is that without some way of controlling the sync activity there is no way to guarantee that this will work. My logic here is that if I restore an old DB file the data it contains will be older than the data in the cloud so in theory the sync process should overwrite my newly restored data.

I am pretty sure that one of the reasons that we have not seen a quick fix the the backup problem is that the whole cloud sync scenario makes the backup and restore function a lot more complex and given that one of the objectives for Logos 4 is to make everything easy for the user and reduce support calls all of this will need to be wrapped in an easy to use wizard...

Reading about users losing data is really worrying especially now that I have nearly 2 years worth data plus the data that I imported from Logos 3 to worry about. This issue has been the subject of a lot of discussion and it will not go away until we have a proper solution and now that all of our user data is in a synchronised database rather than a file that means updates should be journalled and there should be a roll back/forward recovery mechanism.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269665#Comment_269665

I believe that there are a number of us backing up the files that are being managed by the sync process in the hope that if everything fails we can restore them to the appropriate location and recover the data.

You may want to consider a full backup of L4 as this may not work as you envision. In some of these databases there are GUID's stored (Global Unique IDs) which may not line up with your other current databases, thus rendering your saved databases useless.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269665#Comment_269665

OK, Graham ... what's a 'chocolate teapot'?? Haven't heard that here in the colonies.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269669#Comment_269669

In some of these databases there are GUID's stored (Global Unique IDs) which may not line up with your other current databases

Oh the joy of recovering databases and achieving data integrity...

I am backing up everything as well just not every day.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269665#Comment_269665

To date I have not lost any files due to system or user error but I do know that when/if this event occurs the current sync facility will be as useful as a chocolate teapot!

Great line Graham - is that unique with you or is it a colloquialism in your neck of the woods? DMB - I assume that it just means that it would be utterly worthless. As soon as you put the "chocolate teapot" on the burner, you would have a pile of mess. In other words, it would not be very useful for making tea! And we all know how important that is [:)]

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269674#Comment_269674

what's a 'chocolate teapot'?

That'll be an English figure of speech!

Just think about what would happen if you put tea leaves in a pot made of chocolate and then poured boiling water into it! The chocolate would melt and all you would have left would be a mess!!! It just seemed apt for the situation we are discussing i.e. a backup system that looks good until you try and use it to recover...

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269688#Comment_269688

Maybe we ought to get it in Vryso - http://www.scriptureunion.org.uk/151927.id

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269665#Comment_269665

This issue has been the subject of a lot of discussion and it will not go away until we have a proper solution and now that all of our user data is in a synchronised database rather than a file that means updates should be journalled and there should be a roll back/forward recovery mechanism.

I agree that we need a proper solution (fix) to the current issues, one that inspires confidence about the safety of our documents.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269665#Comment_269665

I am pretty sure that one of the reasons that we have not seen a quick fix the the backup problem is that the whole cloud sync scenario makes the backup and restore function a lot more complex and given that one of the objectives for Logos 4 is to make everything easy for the user and reduce support calls all of this will need to be wrapped in an easy to use wizard...

This might also be involved with a solution for sharing documents. The "easy to use" and maintain aspect would be fundamental to Logos and one reason why I hesitate about user-defined recovery points and manual roll-backs.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269311#Comment_269311

I am most concerned with my notes in Logos...they are extensive. I realize this is an L4 thread, but I am also concerned with having to restore L3 at some point. I want to know exactly what I need to backup to be 100% secure. Can I backup my Logos files for 3 and 4 on a flash drive? I do a backup of my Libronix DLS file every so often, but is there more I need to do? I worry that some hidden files, such as the db files mentioned above won't get saved and my other attempts will be futile. If I lost my Logos notes, I'd probably jump off a bridge.

Btw, I try to make all of my notes in L3 and do the upload so they get saved to L4. Is there any practical way of going the other direction, from L4 to L3 with notes?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269843#Comment_269843

Btw, I try to make all of my notes in L3 and do the upload so they get saved to L4. Is there any practical way of going the other direction, from L4 to L3 with notes?

No.

I am most concerned with my notes in Logos...they are extensive. I realize this is an L4 thread, but I am also concerned with having to restore L3 at some point. I want to know exactly what I need to backup to be 100% secure.

For L3 backup \Documents\Libronix DLS\ to save all your user files (documents, workspaces, custom toolbars, etc). Notes are in the \Annotations folder. You can restore individual folders but you need the top level folder for disaster recovery.

For L4 backup the \Logos4 folder for disaster recovery whilst more frequent backups of the smaller \Logos4\Documents folder will keep all your documents up to date. For use of these folders see Method 2 - you cannot safely restore individual files/folders.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269843#Comment_269843

what I need to backup to be 100% secure.

Now that you have a serious answer, I'll answer. First you need to assess your locations vis a vis fire, flood, earth quake, huricane/typhoon, tsunami, terrorist attacks, war ... all of which are manageable risks. Once you have those handled you need to consider massive meteor collisions, Second Coming, ... Nope, I guess you'll never get to 100%[8-)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/270010#Comment_270010

Second Coming, ...

Then, I will not worry about my data. [:D]