Questionable "Bible Study Magazine" Ad

John and fellow Logos users,

I make this post with the hope of bring some clarity to this issue, and improving the trust between Logos and its users.

 

The announced goal of Bible Study Magazine (From Bob Pritchett's  post http://community.logos.com/forums/p/227/3086.asp#3086 )

[Clip] "Bible Study Magazine is not aimed at existing Logos users, though we welcome you all as readers. The goal is to get more people interested in and thinking about Bible study.

We do want to have a balance between "light and fluffy" (and thus easily-approachable) articles and more technical discussions. Didn't you see the introduction to Hebrew text criticism with regards to who killed Goliath? Wasn't that pretty technical? But maybe you don't count that, since David was a "rock (and slingshot) star" too. :-)

My goal for BSM is to be like BAR: approachable and interesting to the person with little understanding of the field, while still useful and interesting to the expert, too.

One thing that's not our goal, and which has caused some confusion with our users, is being a paper tutorial for Bible software. We aren't trying to teach Logos BIble Software in BSM; in fact, we're not really trying to talk to our users much at all. You're here on the forums, subscribed to our NewsWire, and reading our blog. We want to reach the person you go to church with, who is carrying a study Bible and may be fuzzy on what the Septuagint is, who the early church fathers were, and concerned by the phrase "text criticism."

We want Bible Study Magazine to be something that person is willing to pick up (hence the cover feature on someone they've probably heard of), while still a magazine that introduces them to something they hadn't known (Septuagint, Greek word studies, church fathers, etc.). How are we doing at that goal?" [End Clip]

 

Logos' policy on Logos Publications (from Bob Pritchett's post http://community.logos.com/forums/p/35460/266673.aspx#266673 ) 

[Clip] "How can we trust Logos then?

Good question. And here is where, for the first time in 20 years, the answer has changed; there are now two parts:

The historic answer: As an electronic bookseller, Logos Bible Software does not represent any theological filter (and never has). You should not assume that every electronic book we sell represents orthodox Christian belief, or any particular understanding of such. What you can be sure of is that content we sell is labeled with the author, publisher, and other descriptive metadata that will help you identify who is responsible for the content. We trust that our users will exercise discernment in their choice of digital content just as they would when walking through a paper library or bookstore, and we will soon be adding support for user reviews and ratings where you can get and share other perspectives beyond the marketing copy from a book’s dust-jacket.

The new, second part: Recently Logos has become something of a publisher. We create and sell Bible Study Magazine, the Lexham English Bible, HD Commentary, Evangelical Exegetical Commentary, and more. It’s fair to ask what theological perspective is behind these publications. And the answer is “Evangelical Christian.” Logos Bible Software is a member of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, and we subscribe to the Statement of Faith of the Association (http://www.ecpa.org/?page=about_ecpa)." [End Clip]

 

John, from the foregoing, I conclude that (1) Bible Study Magazine is aimed at people who are not Logos users and (2) Logos acts as the publisher (not a bookseller or librarian) for Bible Study Magazine and thus intends its content to follow the ECPA Statement of Faith. 

I think Logos would be most consistent with both its purpose for BSM and the ECPA SoF by accepting only ads for products that, at a minimum, do not contradict the ECPA State of Faith. 

However, my opinion does't really count. Only yours does, John. Thank you for hearing me out. 

Dennis Parish 

John, hey i watched the viral video of HQ, where's u'r office? Bldg #1 or #2?

[[pppsssttt...did I win?...]]

Josh said:

John D. Barry said:

For this reason, I have very much appreciated this debate, but want to continue to encourage everyone to keep it focused on Logos' content, not content that is advertised in Bible Study Magazine.

This sounds like PR spin. Logos is responsible for ALL the content in its magazine.

That ad was paid for by a heretical fringe ministry and 99.9% of everyone in this forum would agree. They deny the Trinity and call the Holy Spirit a person-less "power" of God. In other words - NOT GOD. That is BLASPHEMY plain and simple. 

WWeell, I guess I am that zero point one percent. I believe that he was silently inferring to the name calling that might become of this thread. Discussion is one thing, debating again another, both to which he doesn’t seem to frown upon nor discourage, therein lay some truth.

Yet, when we stoop to the name bashing towards one who is not present to vindicate nor state the reasoning behind their systemic belief or theology, well, I think that that’s just not right, others may disagree. Just because their theology is different and they may interpret the Scriptures differently does not mean they are not any less convinced that they are correct and see others as incorrect, but from what I have seen from the add, it doesn't appear that they are calling any one incorrect, but the reviews that appear on the amazon site well.......Shame on them....

Josh, no disrespect intended, but if you feel so strongly against what they stand for and know some of their theology, I would think that it would be justifiable if you contacted them...or at the least get the version and read it for yourself, this way you know first hand what they put out as print.....

As for Law-gos, they may have reasons that we are not aware of, and well, that is their peragotive….we have signed no contract that states we agree to buy everything that they promote or have listed etc.,etc..

 

Hope this helps.

 

Josh said:

Room4more said:

WWeell, I guess I am that zero point one percent.

You deny that the Holy Spirit is God?

I did not state that did I? Nor will I go meet in the middle of town with an unarm’d person, but thanks for asking. Please stay focus’d….its not me you are hunting....

Hope this helps.

ST ... are you sure you said what you meant?

Promote and advertise at least in business are the same, advertisements usually being  a subset of promotions.

I notice Joel Osteen defined 'Christian' pretty loosely today for one of the candidates. Maybe .1% is pretty common.

Josh said:

The issue is how Logos presents resources, not what they present.

Edit: I just want to clarify once more, the ad in question is promoting a resource that holds to a non-trinitarian theology. And that is only one of its many heretical positions. It is certainly not a legitimate "Christian" resource - Logos statement of faith even agrees with me on this point.

oooohhh I read it now, it is because they are not trinitarian that you have a problem.....that's it, right...ok thats kewl...

Ok: just say that HQ admits that they knowingly put the ad in – bottom line----what’cha gonna do?

1-boycott them?

2-sue them?

3-stop using their software?

4-pick up your toys and go home?

-----?

while we are on the subject by what credentials are we to say what is "christian" and what is not?

 

Josh said:

I can't believe that I am being rebuked for trying to stand up for this belief.

Jews also deny that Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) is God, so by that logic they don't believe in the same God either, and nor did Abraham, Moses, David and the other OT figures. If that ad had been for the JPS Tanach, would you have been equally upset at it being non-trinitatian, equally quick to shout about heresy and blasphemy? Do you realize that there may be Jews reading this thread, and that you're insulting them as well in your zeal to defend the Holy Trinity?

So again: these forums are a meeting place for Logos users, not for any particular brand of 'orthodox' Christianity, and all Logos users should be able to feel welcome.

 

Logos: I haven't seen the ad, so I'm just speaking generally here, but there is an option of being open when it comes to who can advertise, yet more strict when it comes to how they can advertise. One can e g demand that all products and publishers that aren't as well known as, say, Eerdmans and the NIV, include some kind of 'identifier', like "a Unitarian translation" or "ABC Press -- the publishing branch of the XYZ church". That would seem to fit well with Bob's words in the quote in Dennis' post.  (Or you can simply make sure to sell so many ads you like that there isn't any room left for those you'd rather not have. [:D])

MJ. Smith said:

You will note that several active members of the forums fall into these groups. It is inappropriate to put down other forum members' theology. Logos has asked you multiple times to cease and desist. Please let it go.

Well said MJ

Josh said:

I trust the Bible on this issue, not Wikipedia. The HOLY SPIRIT is God. I can't believe that I am being rebuked for trying to stand up for this belief. How can you possibly call someone a true Christian if they don't even believe in the true God?

But the doctrine of the Trinity is not in scripture; it is an interpretation of scripture (every knee will bow, every interpretation confess, ...) The only exception to this is 1 John 5:7 in the KJV, and the author of the bible in question happens to be correct in this situation.

The problem that I see is that we are assuming that we are all working with the same definition of "Christian."  For some people, to be called a Christian, you must believe in the Trinity.  For others, they will use, and I believe to be a more biblical understanding, one who follows the Christ (Jesus).  This comes from Acts 11:26.

I consider the ISBE to be a very conservative source, and it states:

Though “trinity” is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement, the NT does contain most of the building materials for later doctrine.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1988; 2002). 914.

Please note that it uses the phrase "most of the."  It doesn't say all of the...

Josh,

Godhead – not very promising….

Josh said:

I'm astonished because we are not discussing some non-foundational issue like the rapture. We are taking about the very nature of who God is. Fred Coulter's own ministry has a list of beliefs on their website. They are very clear that they do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person co-equal with Jesus and the Father as God. I'm not putting words into his mouth. He does not need to be present to defend himself. His belief is plain.

If you want to go ahead and minimize this blasphemous position, go ahead. I'm only agreeing with what Logo's itself believes! And that was the whole point. I wanted to point that out to them. I'm under the assumption they might not have known.

Josh,

I like you strongly believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, while the term is absent from Scripture, I believe it best describes everything the Bible says about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't know if you realized this, but Room4more is a Christadelphian (non-Trinitarian) so that is where he is coming from.

Logos has asked us to rather than tell each other they are wrong, and why, to focus on using the software for Bible study. A more fruitful methodology in keeping with the forum guidelines would be to give suggestions on how one might use Logos to study the doctrine of the Trinity for themselves. Then we can allow the Holy Spirit to do His job, He is the Person Jesus said would lead us into all truth.

 

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” (John 16:13, NIV84)  

 

A good place to start would be to search for the word "Trinity" from the homepage. This will provides links to various dictionary articles ect. Many of these will include Scripture references regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also since the word "Godhead" is in Scripture this could be another place to start.

Does anyone else have suggestions on how to use Logos to study the Trinity? I would be very much interested.

 

I'm echoing you, Josh.  I'm disappointed in Logos, but I'm shocked that the first order, non-negotiable Doctrine of the Trinity is being tossed aside on a mere whim by some forum readers, or if not tossed aside put on some second and third tier backburner.

This ad is a big enough issue that I'm sending a concerned letter.  I expect better than typical corporate jargon and side-stepping of an issue from a Christian company.  I will cancel if I get such an answer.

But seriously... it's the TRINITY we're talking about, people...  It might not be first tier for some, but there is a reason why virtually every serious Biblical scholar and apologist going back farther than Augustine fought for it.

Josh said:

Logos selectively chooses what advertisements it wants to run.

The magazine is called Bible Study Magazine, not Bible Doctrine Magazine. If I thought I could fill Heaven by kicking the fire out of people with heretical beliefs, I would go get me some pointy boots and start kicking. I do not subscribe to BSM since after the first year. 

But I have some news for you; There are employess who work at Logos who you would call heretical in their views of Bible doctrine. There are Logos employees and customers who you would pronounce lost to an eternity of Hell (if you believe in "Hell.") I won't make a big deal about the ad or other people's heresy because:

1. I can not do anything proactive to effect real change in their situation.
2. God is the only fit Judge of anyone.
3. Logos is not the church.
4. I would be a hypocrite because I do dine in restaurants where the food is prepared by souls I believe will burn in Hell.

Just because you find something objectionable doesn't make it so. I don't have a clue about this man or his organization and if he doesn't believe in the Trinity I think he's wrong, but I'm also not Catholic or Holiness or Pentecostal, but I wouldn't object to any of them advertising in BSM. I like the mag and I am smart enough to tell the difference between the ads and the editorial content. I suggest those who don't like ad unsubscribe or never start receiving.

See I can defend Logos! [:)]

There is still a problem with your comparison, though:

Catholic, Trinitarian.  Holiness, Trinitarian.  Pentecostal, Trinitary.

If we start down the unorthodox route, then BSM becomes the place you can come to study the Bible and find out about whatever God you want.  I disagree with those three also, but recognize my argument is one of form, and not based on the core Christian belief of the Trinity.  Every major schism in our Christian history left a body of believers and reformers who were Trinitarian.  Those doctrines were not up for debate.

I wouldn't have a problem with an app like that either.  But that's not what this ad is doing.  It is advertising a particular version of the Bible and is endorsing an agenda, with no hidden language, being advertised and designed to inspire the kind of divisive nature you seem to despise.

And by the, not "Says me", says their doctrinal statements.  I'm not arguing individual members mistakes and misinterpretations, but then again, those members aren't taking out ads in a Bible Study Magazine, but if they were I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as it didn't do something crazy like call the Trinity questionable!

Also, Holman, Trinitarian.

Paul,

With all due respect, give it up.

We acknowledge and respect your passion about the Trinity. Please acknowledge and respect the fact that not every other follower of Jesus carries your passion about, or is willing to divide in order to conquer as you are in defense of the Trinity.

If you're not willing to offer the requested acknowledgement and respect of other followers, then perhaps you'd be willing to acknowledge the not-so-latent incongruity of your protest of a magazine ad via a software users forum.

And if you're not willing to provide that small bit of acknowledgement, then at least acknowledge and respect the clear and posted requests of the Logos team to move theological/doctrinal controversies to other arenas.

This post is not a comment on your theology or the legitimacy of your claims. Instead, this post is a plea for tolerance of others and other things when critiques of those others and other things are specifically, intentionally not germane to the community in which you offer them.

Blessings,

Bill Coley

All the doctrinal debate aside, the issue should come down to the controversial attacks of the ad.If Logos wants to avoid it in the forums, why allow attacks against certain translations in an ad? For those that have a major issue with it simply cancel your subscriptions and Logos will get the point you will not support a magazine that allows the attack ads.