So long Logos4...

I have finally come to the end of the road with Logos4. What started as affection for Logos2/3 has descended into a deep hatred for Logos4. Logos4 is a door to a gray building without a buzzer or door handle and a welcome mat the reads "Go away, I'm busy".
Logos treat their users as morons or clairvoyants:
As morons: I cannot be trusted to download the whole installer - every time I need to run it, it re-downloads 57M. This is not an issue one or twice, but once it has done this more than a dozen times, my blood boils over! Logos4 decided to do an update (recommended) last week, and part way through, the update crashed. Subsequently running Logos 4 resulted in a "you cannot downgrade Logos" error. What? I am not downgrading anything - Logos4 screwed this up - not me! So I run the setup to repair (and what-do-you-know, 57M download again!). This also failed. Then I ran the setup to remove and start over - 57MB download again!! Managed to uninstall. Then I run the setup to start over - another 57M download!! At this point I have lost my @#*&$%@ sense of humour. Finally get it installed, and guess what? It wants to download 9.5GB of resources (again!!!) I think this is the 7th time this year Logos4 has re-downloaded 9.5GB of resources. And I can see the files - my resource folder has 11.7GB of resources in 3,850 files, but Logos4 obstinately refuses to recognize them. Why Logos bother to supply a DVD is beyond me - it has never used it!! Logos4 has some ridiculous logic for downloading resources: I logged on as a different user, 9.5GB download! I upgraded to Windows 7, 9.5GB download! I upgraded the domain controller, 9.5GB download! Do they think bandwidth grows on trees? Do they think bandwidth is for free? Will they un-blacklist me when my ISP bans me for abusing the fair-use policy? Their programmers obviously suffer from that peculiar American disease that bandwidth is infinite and free.
Do they think that they can waste days of my time because their software has something better to do? I tried to prepare something for a home group study recently only to find Logos4 started with "Preparing Library". Then it started its 9.5GB download rubbish again! When I cancelled the download, Logos4 evaporated - no way start the application without the download. So at that point, Logos4 was 10 hours away from being usable - "Go away, I'm busy"! I may as well toss the DVD in the bin, because it wont use it!
As clairvoyants: What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right? I know there was a menu item in Logo2/3 to do this, but now you have to be a clairvoyant to guess a suitable command. Would you believe there was no match in the entire library search for "remove duplicate"? In Logo2/3, if I has to search every menu item, I could find it inside a minute.
I tried to get into studying with Logo4 and discovered I could not save my desktop. I know in Logos2/3 I could select this from the Save Workspace in the File menu - rather obvious. After extreme frustration with the layouts, I eventually discovered the pencil icon. Right-click a layout has a "Load", but there is no obvious "Save". In effect, a save is a rename of a snapshot, but there is no way to make a new snapshot. So saving the workspace consists of identifying some victim snapshot, updating to current, and then renaming! Which moron thought that was a good idea??? And once it is saved, where is it? How do I send it to someone else? Oh "File->Save As", what have they done to you?
I finally got to the point where I had to write this down. I wanted to verify the facts, but surprise, surprise when I start Logo4, it wanted to download the 9.5GB again. And I can see all 3,850 files!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I cancel the download, the application evaporates! So I am 10 hours away (at least) from being able to even start the application. And at this point I may very well flush hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars investment down the toilet.
[Many, many hours later...]
Against my express wishes, Logos4 downloaded the 9.5GB anyway. At least I could verify my facts.
Sorry Logos, but this is both the most expensive and the worst software in my collection. It is so bad, Logo4 occupies all 10 positions of my worst 10 software suites!!
So long... I am off to find another suite.
Comments
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Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience Andrew. Why don't you give tech support a call. Something is obvious happening which the rest of us are not experiencing.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Andrew, can you give me a few minutes? thanks.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Andrew,
Not denying you have some frustrations, but I've been using Logos 4 for over two years on the same laptop (Toshiba) and haven't experienced on single download error, or any other error for that matter. Everyone I have personal contact with (other seminary students and pastors) who have Logos 4 love it as much as I do and not one of them has ever complained about problems anywhere remotely like yours. Come to think of it, none of them have ever expressed anything but good things about the software and it's helpfulness. Honestly, for the price I've put into it, Logos has gone way above my expectations. Sure there are quirks to the system (i.e., commands I don't know) but none of them has ever hindered my use.
And it sure beats moving boxes of books from my house to my office library!
Hope you get the issues worked out before giving up.
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Andrew,
I would like the opportunity to address your issues, if you will allow me, and, hopefully curb some resentment that are expressing. Thank-you.
As a longtime user, dating back quite some years, I can attest to some of your issues. Yet, if allowed, I don’t understand what you are trying to tell us. Please let me explain. There have been issues of downloading problems in the past, and some current, but most have been resolved and the users are running the software. Which, is subject to your particular system, such as bandwidth, processor speed, available hard drive capacity, etc., etc.The continuance of the 57m, is partially due to - it never finished; afterwards you give the impression that eventually did or it would not have initiated the 9.5gb of resources. Although you may have 11.7 gb, there may have been updates to your current resources that you were not aware of, thus the lower gb download.
Logged in as a different user; are you meaning that you have ‘two’ accounts that are identical? Logged in where? This doesn’t make sense, sorry, I am just reading what you are stating, If I am incorrect then would you be so kind as to clarify for me.....because if the ‘two’ logins are identical, and on the same system you are using, there would not be another download of 9.5gb, because the L4 would see that everything is up to date.
Using Win 7. I get the impression that you were using winXP, possibly, prior to the upgrade. The upgrade, would require another additional setup of L4 since the filing system is slightly different, and there is a definite difference of OS Platform’s between the two programs. Also, in defining upgrade, was it a new machine or just an upgrade of the exiting OS to Win7?
You speak of bandwidth as though you are not from America, which may be causing a slight issue with the updating of the L4 program. Really I do not know for sure, just going with what you are saying.....L4 has the option to run “off line” but as soon as you change it to “on line” it will initiate a download if it see’s that one is available to bring everything up to date, this includes resources as well. So maybe the programmers can do something, I do not know but it never hurts to ask.....
The preparing Library is a common thing, again you are referring back to the download of 9.5gb. Which seems to be an update of the program. Again, just going with your words.
As clairvoyants: the command structure was rebuilt, yes. It took me a spell to get it into my stubborn already know how to do it brain, as well as possibly many others. Doing an internet search does not apply to L4, that is an independent function, unless you are referring to the Perseus look-up. As for the free-book, if you already had it in L4, it will not let you ‘re-download it”, unless you deleted the resources from the library. I have never been able to accomplish a “duplicate resources” in L4. As for commands, they are still the same and some extras have been added, there is a wiki page that has them listed, you can print it out for further need.
There is no need to “save a desktop” in L4, it was changed to ‘Layout’ and can be easily accessed by the dropdown from the ‘Layouts’ tab on the far right of the program.
As to your other comments, I would recommend the wiki pages which cam be found at the top of your screen as you read this reply. Just click “wiki” and you will be re-directed to it. It has a ‘table of contents [TOC]’ and also a search engine on the left that you can type in a command or something that you are having difficulties getting done....
Hopefully you will reconsider the usage of L4 and discover that there is a vast opportunity for discovery....
Hope this helps. R4m.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Andrew, Andrew, Andrew ... you sound so 'deja vu'. Could it be a day in late October 2009?
I'm Libronix through and through, due to all (and more) of the issues you bring up. I've no real issue with Logos4 ... I kind of giggle at all the users that willingly pay premium prices, watch all the downloads, indexing, crashing and who knows what. I'm not trying to bad-mouth Logos per se, but I wouldn't dream of recommending it to anyone at church. Pay high prices? Better buy a big computer? Better be REALLY patient? Oh, and ... better read the forums/wiki regularly since there's no manual and they don't willingly communicate what they're doing.
And actually I think Bob's vision is absolutely great (a church that can share Bible study, worship processes, etc). It's just that somewhere along the line 'the user' isn't a big player in the development process.
Now, it's not limited to Logos4. Yesterday, my spiffy imaging software crashed just about every 3 minutes, it was so unstable. Eventually I went in the bedroom, got the old version, and installed it. My language software is so 'broken' (it's quite similar to Logos4 in being slow). But they're so 'license' oriented and can't get their servers to work reliably I finally just gave up. Wasted some money but so it goes. My new Sibelius software works great; it's just the software samples are terrible (they saved money), so instead I search the web to see if I can get the older version.
My new policy after Logos4 and the rest of them is 'no new Windows software'. The developers can't handle Windows programming any more.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Perhaps I am living in some sort of sweet dream world, but I've never experienced these nightmares. I run L4 on a 2.5 year old Lenovo ThinkPad T500 with Windows 7 and very slow DSL but everything seems to run well. Were I to be plagued with such problems, I suspect I would be as upset, but it seems as though something is going on outside of L4.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Andrew Morgan said:
I think this is the 7th time this year Logos4 has re-downloaded 9.5GB of resources. And I can see the files - my resource folder has 11.7GB of resources in 3,850 files, but Logos4 obstinately refuses to recognize them.
Andrew, Logos can be difficult when it comes to fixing installation problems, especially from a DVD, but you could have requested assistance in this forum and we would likely have fixed it eg. to stop unsolicited downloads you go to Tools | Program Settings and change Automatically Download Updates to NO. Also you can use existing resources if you back them up before uninstalling.
The DVD could install an old version of Logos 4 that is not compatible with the current "cloud" system and have older versions of resources that need updating; hence the large 9.5 GB download.
To give you an idea of a possible recovery using your downloaded resources see Method 3 at http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Good-bye!
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Andrew Morgan said:
So long... I am off to find another suite.
Welcome [:D] to the Logos Bible Software forums.
Currently this forum thread has responses from Logos users. Logos employees have a blue logo.
One option is email or call Logos => http://www.logos.com/about/contact with reference to this thread.
Wiki has => Quick Installation onto multiple computers that notes custom installation has option to uncheck automatic downloads. Also has steps to scan so one Logos 4 installation can copy resource files from another, then index.
Wiki Getting Started with Logos has => Installation + Indexing and => Layouts (after a snapshot has been named, then can right click on name in Layouts menu for option: "Update to current snapshot"). Logos 4 has four menus with right click options: File, Guides, Tools, and Layouts.
Thankful that Libronix 3 and Logos 4 can peacefully coexist on a computer. Libronix 3 installs once for all users plus allows locked resource files to be present. Logos 4 installs for each computer user, resources folder has unlocked and unhidden resources. Wiki has Hiding Books so can remove resource(s) from local Logos 4 library that you do not want to use.
For original language study, have read about a couple software packages (Accordance and BibleWorks) being a bit faster than Logos 4. For a digital library, Logos currently has ~ 22,000 resources available (with free maintenance for fixing typo's) => http://blog.logos.com/2012/05/behind-the-scenes-what-happens-when-your-book-gets-updated/ plus Vyrso has 5,745 eBooks (today show 12 titles for $ 0.00) that can be used in Logos 4 and mobile devices. Personally find Logos 4 library management easier for thousands of resources than TheWord, which has a few thousand resources available (many free).
My favorite Logos 4 feature is Logos Greek Morphology visual filter highlighting so can see range of verbal expression in Greek and English Bibles, which have appropriate morphological tagging. Wiki Extended Tips for Visual Filters has => Examples of visual filters with a screen shot showing highlighting palette and 5 Logos Greek Morphology visual filter definitions. Caveat: creating highlighting palette and visual filter definitions took awhile.
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about Logos Bible Software: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn. Wiki Getting Started with Logos => Learning Logos includes:
Tip: Becoming proficient with Logos 4 features and capabilities takes months of use – practice and perseverance produces powerful results.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Andrew Morgan said:
57M download!! At this point I have lost my @#*&$%@ sense of humour.
I can relate, I use the method in the wiki to avoid the downloading, I choose to reindex, but thats just me..
There are faster ways (avoiding big downloads) just unsupported by Logos.
http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers
Andrew Morgan said:As clairvoyants: What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right? I know there was a menu item in Logo2/3 to do this, but now you have to be a clairvoyant to guess a suitable command. Would you believe there was no match in the entire library search for "remove duplicate"? In Logo2/3, if I has to search every menu item, I could find it inside a minute.
If you had up-todate version in L4 it should not download, only if there was an update
Andrew Morgan said:I tried to get into studying with Logo4 and discovered I could not save my desktop. I know in Logos2/3 I could select this from the Save Workspace in the File menu - rather obvious. After extreme frustration with the layouts, I eventually discovered the pencil icon. Right-click a layout has a "Load", but there is no obvious "Save". In effect, a save is a rename of a snapshot, but there is no way to make a new snapshot. So saving the workspace consists of identifying some victim snapshot, updating to current, and then renaming! Which moron thought that was a good idea??? And once it is saved, where is it? How do I send it to someone else? Oh "File->Save As", what have they done to you?
Chick on pencil next to snapshot and time - it will add it to the menu on the Left hand side
Andrew Morgan said:So long... I am off to find another suite.
Sorry to see you go.. did you ask in forum, we always try to help..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Hi Andrew,
I sincerely apologize for the difficulty you are encountering with Logos 4. Please call us at Customer Support. We would be happy to look into the issues that you are describing.
It sounds like you may be outside the United States. If you are in the UK you can try calling us at 0871-218-1700, Monday through Friday, between 2pm and 1am BST. An alternative would be to send us an email at customerservice@logos.com with a phone number and a time we should try to reach you.
Thank you and we look forward to assisting you.
Logos Academic Sales 1-800-878-4191| 1-360-603-5572 | UK Callers: 0(871)218-1700
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The 9.5GB download thing made me laugh because I understood his pain. I've never experienced repetitive downloads like the OP, but I've said it more than once that Logos 4 uses bandwidth like a Hummer uses petrol. You only really notice this if you live in a rural area in the US or somewhere in a majority world nation.
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Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
It saddens me to see people simply dismiss Andrews comments with a carte blanche "I've been using Logos 4 for years now and I have not had any problems". Obviously like me, Andrew has been a very long standing patron of the Logos software going back many many years and his experiences are genuine and echoed by many other users including myself.
The only thing I like about the Logos 4 interface is the nice metatag graphics. Beyong this it is DEFINITELY LESS user-friendly compared to the Libronix software (which doesn't look half as good). Taking away the user's choice as to where they want to their resources to reside (including on a network drive) is a huge step backwards for people like Andrew and myself who's home network (an increasingly more common scenario in the modern household with media sharing etc) is NOT catered for in the locked down installation process offered now by this frustrating software.
Logos 4 support team, (and basic stand alone users), STOP throwing platitudes to people such as Andrew or before you know it, you will be dead in the water wandering where your customers went.
Is it possible amid a sea of people admiring the fine clothes of the Emperor as he rides down the street on his horse that Andrew is one of only a few handful of people to actually be honest about the fact that the Emperor is stark butt naked?
Saying i'ts fine when in fact it's not does Logos 4 absolutely NO favours.
Phil
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Phil, welcome to the forums - even if you are a long term user it appears that you're new to the forums. It's my observation that users have very different ways that they use Logos and different tasks they wish to complete. I suspect that the range "I've had no problems" to "this belongs in the trash can" are all honest responses to Logos 4. It is sometimes helpful to be reminded that other views exist - regardless of which extreme matches your experience. And it is true that some frustrated users learn to like Logos 4 ... others revert to Libronix 3. Only the OP after a few months can tell us which group he belongs to.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks for your response MJ.
My point about responses is that it is rather glib to respond to people's complaint with "I've had no problems" This sort of response is inane and unhelpful.
Beyond this it appears to me that Logos 4 whilst catering for what they perceive to be a majority are going totally against the growing home network environment where media and resources are shared from a common NETWORK source.
Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments; and if Andrew's comments are a small reflection of the disappointment experienced by people who have used BOTH the Libronix and Logos 4 software, then I suspect that Logos 4 deserve the flack for the hard-line decisions they have made.
Having made those decisions it is totally inappropriate to tell people that this new software is better when in fact their experience is a huge backward step. No amount of hanging in there is going to convince such people otherwise. There are some people who expect value for their money and lets NOT forget that Logos commands the highest price for this experience.
Bottom line... If the Emperor is naked, he's naked..
Regards Phil
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Phil Jagger said:
Is it possible amid a sea of people admiring the fine clothes of the Emperor as he rides down the street on his horse that Andrew is one of only a few handful of people to actually be honest about the fact that the Emperor is stark butt naked?
Phil, sorry but I cannot agree with your analogy. It seems to me you try to say that those who say: "Logos 4 is great piece of software, I like the direction of it's development, it works great for me..." are not sincere but trying (out of honor, fear or simple flattery) not to say openly "the emperor is naked". I strongly disagree. I think those satisfied with Logos 4 are as sincere as those having problems with it. How I know? Because I am one of them. May be I haven't understood you well enough, in this case I apologize.
P.S. One more thing: saying to a customer who has some issues with the software, that others do not experience those issues, don't have necessarily be negatively seen by the OP. It should be helpful IMHO to the OP to see it is not a general design problem of the software, there is something going on what could/should be worked out with the Customer Service.
Bohuslav
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I agree with Bohuslav; what else can users say that they didn't? The first answer immediately suggested technical support (didn't sound like a user issue). And the remaining spoke to the OP's implied message, which they certainly have an interest in doing.
But I do suspect when Logos fouls up royally (with clothes of course), the company does little obvious 'hand-holding' that would calm the user down. Of course we all know the primary documentation is from users stumbling around figuring it out (yea Steve and Dave and Mark!!).
But the most likely culprit in Logos4 is always going to be either the indexing or the internet cross-communication. The gigs are almost always high, so a normal prorgram developer would 'normally' write in hand-holding messages when the program itself knows something's wrong.
What impresses me is the repeated 'please post your logs'. Someone with a little experience can often spot the problem ... but the program developer can't? "Well, you know these computers are just soooooo complicated ... maybe the user can figure it out."
I always keep thinking about the likely design philosphy ... 'Fire Someone Today' ... can't handle the heat ... get another piece of Bible software.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Phil Jagger said:
Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments;
Actually, Phil, Logos HAS catered to what they see as the COMING networking environment--cloud. Sync settings, licenses, & master copies of all the resources are now held in the cloud "for" us, as is a growing body of "community" data.
HOME networking, while of interest to you & me, is the archtecture of the immediate present, perhaps soon to be past.
If you've lived with us through v. 2, v. 3, & now v. 4, then you know that Bob has bet the farm each time on the architecture that's coming. You (and I) don't like it, but so far Bob's been on target (with the possible exception of WPF).
I don't like cloud either. To me, in too many ways it's a return to the days of "big iron" architectures that distributed computing was supposed to save us from. I still prefer distributed...
So while I feel your pain (literally, each time I've had to rebuild L4), unless industry picks a different "future" architecture, I don't see Logos moving away from cloud any time soon.
Many blessings to you.Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Phil Jagger said:
Thanks for your response MJ.
My point about responses is that it is rather glib to respond to people's complaint with "I've had no problems" This sort of response is inane and unhelpful.
Beyond this it appears to me that Logos 4 whilst catering for what they perceive to be a majority are going totally against the growing home network environment where media and resources are shared from a common NETWORK source.
Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments; and if Andrew's comments are a small reflection of the disappointment experienced by people who have used BOTH the Libronix and Logos 4 software, then I suspect that Logos 4 deserve the flack for the hard-line decisions they have made.
Having made those decisions it is totally inappropriate to tell people that this new software is better when in fact their experience is a huge backward step. No amount of hanging in there is going to convince such people otherwise. There are some people who expect value for their money and lets NOT forget that Logos commands the highest price for this experience.
Bottom line... If the Emperor is naked, he's naked..
Regards Phil
I was a part of the beta testing so I have been in on L4 from the beginning. At first I was not too impressed with L4. Perhaps it was the fact that it was still under develoopment (well, it still actually is [:)]), but I preferred L3 for some time. Today I still use L3 for some things such as calculating weights and measures (L4 doesn't have that facility), but I have gradually switched to nearly exclusive use of L4. I like it though there are still a few points that irritate me such as the fact that it is necessary to drag a resource from the menu to where you want it unless you're content to let L4 open it where it jolly well pleases—I rather wish that certain types of resources could be designated to open in certain locations (original language texts on the left, lexicons on the right, etc). It hasn't been all peaches and cream. I've had a few frustrations along the way. I would ask, have you really given it a fair shot? This means, have you availed yourself of the help of other members of the forum or, if necessary, tech support? I would recommend that you not be too hasty. I'm still working on understanding how to construct sytax searches. Supposedly they're good for searching for information other searches can't find, but I find them frustrating. Perhaps I'm too YOUNG. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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[Y]George Somsel said:few points that irritate me such as the fact that it is necessary to drag a resource from the menu to where you want it unless you're content to let L4 open it where it jolly well pleases—I rather wish that certain types of resources could be designated to open in certain locations (original language texts on the left, lexicons on the right, etc).
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Has anyone noticed that the OP has not returned to say whether or not the problem was solved? Been with L4 since it was beta tested, and it did have a learning curve. I use the beta almost exclusively, and like it.
Maybe I am too easy to please, but I simply make do with what it is. It works for me. What intrigues me, is the fact that I live in the Caribbean (Bahamas) and I know of other developing nations where broadband is no longer metered. My ISP no longer offers a metered package, and they say they are unable to tell me what my monthly usage is. My only gripe with downloading is, the download speed is rather slow, whether on a 6M fiber at the office, or a 3Mb coaxial cable at home. The download time seems the same. Amazon please fix this.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
I know of other developing nations where broadband is no longer metered. My ISP no longer offers a metered package, and they say they are unable to tell me what my monthly usage is.
I suppose I would need to say that my usage is metered; however, I've exceeded it rather consistently every month without being penalized in any way. I did finally decide to upgrade to a higher speed which came with greater limits, but that had to do with speed and not limits.
Lynden Williams said:Amazon please fix this.
Amazon is in the cable business?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.
My understanding was that Logos was thinking about using Amazon's servers. I do not recall reading a post stating that they are using their servers. Then again, I only read a very small percentage of the posts.
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BillS said:Phil Jagger said:
Based on this I truly question the decisions made by Logos 4 NOT to cater for networking environments;
Actually, Phil, Logos HAS catered to what they see as the COMING networking environment--cloud. Sync settings, licenses, & master copies of all the resources are now held in the cloud "for" us, as is a growing body of "community" data.
HOME networking, while of interest to you & me, is the architecture of the immediate present, perhaps soon to be past.
If you've lived with us through v. 2, v. 3, & now v. 4, then you know that Bob has bet the farm each time on the architecture that's coming. You (and I) don't like it, but so far Bob's been on target (with the possible exception of WPF).
I don't like cloud either. To me, in too many ways it's a return to the days of "big iron" architectures that distributed computing was supposed to save us from. I still prefer distributed...
So while I feel your pain (literally, each time I've had to rebuild L4), unless industry picks a different "future" architecture, I don't see Logos moving away from cloud any time soon.
Many blessings to you.I hear you Bill but if I were Bob I'd be worried about the farm...
- Cloud computing is congruent with fibre infrastructure - a commodity that is not yet rolled out in all countries including mine.
- Data cost are becoming prohibitive - many international airports have ceased offering patrons free wifi because of this fact.
- As cloud computing becomes more entrenched, data costs will increase accordingly
- The choice to use the cloud as a software end user SHOULD be a choice not an in imperative
I am also observing a phenomenon which is highlighted in forums such as this and that is that we start off as consumers, we invest heavily both with finances and time into getting the best out of that software and then when it evolves in a somewhat degenerate manner, we still champion the software because we have become a family of sojourners who need this software to work because we've given it so much of our attention.
From a consumer's point of view, although I applaud the recent comments for being open and honest about the various frustrations of this software, they make a perfect point that consumers are NOT getting value for money and that as end users rather than wishing things were different (better) we should be demanding better form from the developers.
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Lynden Williams said:
We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.
"We" as in Logos users?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
"We" as in Logos users?
Yes, as per Bradley - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48920/364835.aspx#364835 - Logos use Amazon servers to host the resources they distribute to us
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tom collinge said:Lynden Williams said:
We download our books from Amazon server. There is a post somewhere about it.
My understanding was that Logos was thinking about using Amazon's servers. I do not recall reading a post stating that they are using their servers. Then again, I only read a very small percentage of the posts.
One post of many:
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Right now, Amazon S3 is delivering good value for the cost.
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48920/364835.aspx#364835
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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To let others know that all of us are not completely satisfied with L4, i'm posting a short list of positives & negatives. i've noticed that some who post on the forum get frustrated when they see many users trying to say only positive things about the software.
Negatives
Indexing -- on older computers (such as mine) indexing causes crashing frequently and requires a LOT of coaxing to get my library indexed and working again (usually a couple of long days). Also the number of times a year that re-indexing is required seems excessive.
Lack of Backup/Restore of personal data -- over the past years i've lost information a few times. i wish Logos would provide tools for local backup & restore for our personal data. As a work-around i've learned to do a full backup on an external HD and been able many times to reinstall via method 2 in the wiki. Although this is not always possible. And when it does work, it takes a significant amount of time and work.
Slow progress of a finished product -- it has been a long ride with Logos on getting the features added to the software. Many times this is frustrating to me as a user. Fortunately virtually no other software that i own puts me in this situation. i'm not sure that i would want to go thru this again with a future version of Logos software.
Positives
With the new user interface and the forum, i was better able to figure out how the software was intended to work. In L3, i never figured out many of the features since the help files were so poorly written (e.g. Parallel resources, Passage Lists, Key word, etc). The L3 help files were very very brief and most of the time it was incredibly difficult to search and locate what i needed. But now i have a pretty good handle on how to do much more in L4.
As mentioned above, the forum has been a great help. Many generous users have helped me along my journey in learning to utilize L4. (Thanks to all of you!)
Logos has provided a wiki where we share instructions on how the software works. (Thank you Logos and fellow users!)Mark Barnes' videos have been very useful to me and others. (Thanks Mark!)
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steve clark said:
Logos has providing a wiki where we share instructions on how the software works. (Thank you Logos and fellow users!)
And I who thought you were the one providing the Wiki. [:D]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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My .02, and I have voiced this opinion before, there are a few issues Logos needs to address; or they already are, we can only hope!
1. When Logos 4 first came out, it was rough - it was really not ready to come out. But then, over the next 6 months or so, updates of features came out at a blistering pace. It was not only a significant improvement to the product, but it was FUN, plus you almost had the feeling anything you found that was of reasonable significance, gosh darn it was either going to get fixed or improved. Life was good.
But then, improvement has slowed down DRAMATICALLY; now there are still functions that have not been fully implemented, errors and bugs to be fixed, etc - this includes big stuff too. Go through the wiki and look at the list of features added to Logos 4 in the last 6 months; there's very little there. Why? Logos is working on other platforms (Faithlife, Vyrso, Proclaim, iOS, Android), plumbing (iterations of sync that are still not complete), and who knows what other plumbing and stuff "under the covers". This is all well and good, but from a user perspective, right now, it's as if very little is being done to improve the desktop products (Mac and PC).
2. The other big problem IMHO is some of the anomalies/problems/issues with the UI. Logos bet on Microsoft's WPF, and they found out fixing problems or improving things is out of their control; plus MS is moving extremely slowly, if at ll, on WPF improvements. Maybe Logos is rewriting the UI to not use WPF, which is worthless on all these other platforms Logos supports?
3. We have lost any real insight on plans and scheduled for Logos. Used to be, we had some feeling, by quarter at least, of new functions coming. No more, communication has virtually stopped and some of what gets posted can be perceived as defensive. Are things so in flux or unpredictable that Logos just doesn't feel comfortable communicating any more? Are they so distracted they have forgotten about us?
I can't say we really know anything Logos plans to implement feature/function wise right now. Users could be complaining about things that are being implemented as we speak. Logos could help themselves a whole lot by being much more transparent with what is going on. Logos 4 is a good product with great potential, but I really think Logos may not realize some of the sentiments that a growing number of users have.
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Oh my i appreciate all your issues and am starting to feel very lucky to be using the mac version. I am not saying the mac version is not buggier than it should be, indeed buggy to such a level it really still does fell like beta software. For myself i am lucky it functions well for me other than often needing to be forced quit or occasionally when in the background for too long it unexpectedly quits. I have experienced download issues (always due to my iso which is satellite based, and when a program update has been downloaded incompletely it requires manually downloading the program to update properly but I do not blame Logos for that. I have never had to redownload my library other than on my iPhone (the items i keep on it). Logos is far from what i would hope it to be but I am glad it works relatively well for myself.
-Dan
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Well, regarding 'the cloud', we're happy we're saying 'goodbye' to as much 'internet automatic support' as we can. Our little cellular hotspot is heaven-sent; works wherever we go. McCloud California, believe or not. Dumped our 'by the minutes' cell phones. Will be dumping our high-end satellite TV support and likely going back to land-lines to Japan. Net savings is quite significant. Friends far more wealthier than us are doing the same. Getting tired of ways for companies to take our money without asking.
Software that wants mucho gigabyte support is going to have to find another home.
(I MUST add the Libronix 'download what you need' is just great!! I'd never dreamed this software would fit in so nicely. What a great puppy. And he let's us do backups, move licenses and more!)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm a long time user of Logos back when it was Libronix v2, then greatly appreciated v3. While I do enjoy many of the benefits of Logos4 and how it does things, I do find it to be sluggish to use and in general more of a hassle in some ways than Libronix v3. However, with that being said, I'm pretty much converted over now to using Logos4 and a lot of the improvements have been welcome and a delight.
My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor. To say the least I was floored and shocked that when I called for support asking how to use the software because I was in a bind and really needed help, they refused me help and instead pointed me towards their paid training resources rather than trying to help me as a customer who has invested a LOT of hard earned cash into this company over the years. To say the least I felt abused as a customer and had I tried that in the company I work for, I would have been wrote up at the very least or possibly even fired at the very worst for not providing support to our customer base. So while I do admit to loving a lot of the tools and functionality of Logos4, I'm very sour on how I'm treated as a customer and that experience has left me feeling abused and used, rather than helped and supported. Overall you have a good product Logos, but a software company is only as good as the support that stands behind their product, and in that department, from my experience, you are failing.
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Jason B said:
So while I do admit to loving a lot of the tools and functionality of Logos4, I'm very sour on how I'm treated as a customer and that experience has left me feeling abused and used … My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor.
I've received good assistance on the rare occasion when I've called so I'm curious about this. May I ask what your issue was?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Andrew,
You must be impressed that so many users are on your side!!
What can i say? I went through what you are going through. Constanyly downloading megaG of resources, constantly indexing the library. So much downloading and indexing that for about 12 months I used L3 (what a great prog!!) and just watched L4 do acrobatics.
I also noticed that the megaG of resources were downloaded into 3 separate folders with mysticalo names.
On some occasions more thyan one indexing prog was running at once!
Perhaps I was at fault, or perhaps Logoes wasn't as flexible as it should have been. When i first downloaded and installed L4 I did NOT install it in the default directory. I rarely install any prog in the default directory. I have my own system which works very well but takes a little effort and metal gymnastics to maintain.
My feeling is that L4 took exception to my efforts and dug its heels in.
Everything was solved when I did a fresh install of win7 and a completely new install of L4.
L4 is now working fine .... if I could only get it to work exactly as L3 did!!! What about changing the default font? What's happened to all those beautiful colour I had?
Stephen Miller
Sydney, Australia
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I am amazed, why should we buy DVDs for Logos product
manuals from Morris proctor? Logos should provide a detail explanation about
how to use the software, like others. If there were no forum where we
could ask our problems, it would have less value to buy the software. I
have invested myself over 6000 USD, but there is no way I could get a guide. I
am very grateful to those unnoticed by Logos , who take time to help me.I
am amazed as well for those who advocate for Logos as if everything were good.
Please let's become realistic.Blessings in Christ.
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Dominick Sela said:
Logos could help themselves a whole lot by being much more transparent with what is going on.
Thanks for that Dominick. I have been saying that for at least 6 years now. Sometimes Bob will post good information, but as a rule Logos is very poor on communication with its customer base.
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Jason B said:
My main problem I have with Logos is in the customer support department. I work for a software company as a senior product support specialist, so I'm very familiar with supporting software and the end user of the software, and I must say that when I called Logos support having difficulty using part of the software because of lack of documentation on how to use it, the lady who took my support call after doing some initial fact finding about the reason for my call to support, promptly told me that since I was not calling with a functional problem with Logos that my problem was just a training issue and pointed me to Morris Proctor.
May I suggest that you email Bob Pritchett with this information—bob@logos.com? This is not normal and should not have happened.
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Jack Caviness said:
May I suggest that you email Bob Pritchett with this information—bob@logos.com? This is not normal and should not have happened.
Yes, I agree.
Bohuslav
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I don't think that Bob doesn't know, at least someone from
Logos could report him. I have no doubt there could be at least someone
who controls the forumsBlessings in Christ.
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Tes said:
I have no doubt there could be at least someone
who controls the forumsNo one control the forums which has been a cause of consternation for some of us.
Tes said:I don't think that Bob doesn't know
Why would you think that? Who at Logos would read every post in every thread to find this comment in such a long thread. No one there reads every thread. Sometimes, I have sent an email to Bob or one of the other senior members of the company. However, in this case, I felt that it was up to the one expressing dissatisfaction to communicate his displeasure to the top dog.
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At the time I was trying to do some research into a bible topic I had been studying, and to gather more data for my study to be sure I had looked at every angle of the topic I was trying to understand, it became apparent that the only tool left to solve my problem was in using a Syntax Query. So after building a few different ones and not getting it right, I searched the forums since it seemed that generally has been the best place to get answers, but I came up dry from that search, so I felt my only option left was to call support to see if they could help me understand how to construct my syntax query correctly, and show me what I had been doing wrongly. When I called support, they started asking me questions about if Logos was working correctly or not, and I told her that I was pretty certain it was working just fine, just that it was me who was the problem, and that I just didn't understand how to use the tool correctly, and could she assist me with this problem? Her prompt reply was that my issue was a training problem and that she could not help me, and then she pointed out the Morris Proctor training materials on the Logos website, as well as telling me I could watch the support videos and ask questions in the forums to learn how to use the program correctly. I was stunned honestly and so asked her again if she would help me, and I was told again that technical support was for reporting bugs and problems with the program, but if the program is working fine, then my issue is considered a training issue, and that technical support was not for that. After a couple attempts to get her to help, I finally gave up, thanked her for her time (although gritting my teeth almost to say it), and then hung up.
In the past when I had called with needing help with Libronix v3, I have had to call several times to get help using the program effectively, and I was always greeted with a polite and helpful technician who worked hard to answer my questions and really did help me understand how to do what I needed help doing, so fast forward a couple years and now I'm using Logos4 for windows, it seems the tone of support has radically changed and I never was able to figure out how to solve my problem or learn how to correctly use syntax queries. I even posted my problem to the forums with screen shots and I never got any response there either, so I finally just gave up, and consequently that study went unfinished.
Overall I will say I do love how easy to use Logos4 has been to use, and it is VERY powerful to say the least! This software has in many ways transformed my spiritual life and given me the ability to find answers for myself that I previously didn't think it would be possible to get, as it makes working with the original language so easy and accessible, which is what I really wanted and needed. So while I do have some things I don't like about Logos4 about its sluggish responsiveness and slow to load, overall I have been very pleased with it for the most part, and I do not have any of the downloading issues thankfully that others here have described. While it is easy to be frustrated and I still am unhappy with how I was treated as a customer by Logos support, I do want to balance that out with the positives as well, so as to not give a lopsided perspective.
So Logos, I can live without documentation if you will make your customer support be real support, but even still if you had outstanding documentation on how to use the software, it still would be no excuse to have poor customer service, because some people still just need a human to explain things to them in terms they can understand, as documentation is not always easily understood by all, although it can be a great start and help. You make great bible study software, just please support it!
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Jason B said:
so fast forward a couple years and now I'm using Logos4 for windows, it seems the tone of support has radically changed
My experience was similar to yours although it was regarding the PBB - it was L3 that I didn't get "training advice" for ... although I ultimately proved it wasn't a training issue but a bug. I do understand why Logos doesn't want technical support to become a training center. I also see why people want options other than MP.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So let me get this right,
Logos is happy to charge premium prices to SELL their software, then (because their high priced software LACKS inbuilt user help and intuitive functions) they are happy to relinqush their responsibilities to a forum because they shouldn't have to get involved in training!
AND THEN because they have passed on their responsibilities to a forum, they are happy to remain aloof from the forum without a even a moderator or representative so that they can remain ignorant to the ongoing plight of their customers and the blaring shortfalls of both their product and their customer service.
Seriously!!!!!
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Jason B said:
I was stunned honestly and so asked her again if she would help me, and I was told again that technical support was for reporting bugs and problems with the program, but if the program is working fine, then my issue is considered a training issue, and that technical support was not for that.
Thank you for the followup post. Now I better understand, and I fear that a message to Bob will not help in this situation [:(]
MP does have some good training materials, but he is expensive. You might take a look at learnlogos.com. John has a couple of webinars on Syntax Searching, and he only charges $4.99 each.
Jason B said:In the past when I had called with needing help with Libronix v3, I have had to call several times to get help using the program effectively, and I was always greeted with a polite and helpful technician who worked hard to answer my questions and really did help me understand how to do what I needed help doing
Unfortunately, it appears that this kind of support is one of those things lost in the company's rapid growth following the release of Logos 4.
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Jason B said:
I even posted my problem to the forums with screen shots and I never got any response there either, so I finally just gave up, and consequently that study went unfinished.
I thought that unusual but the only Syntax question you posted was answered promptly in Aug 2011 (with no acknowledgement from yourself). It showed why your queries did not work.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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