Reformed theology, Logos, and the rest of us.
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Sean McIntyre said:
The tone of this post is highly inappropriate, consider removing brother.
I'll amend the post, although I honestly wasn't trying to be mean. Thus the emote at the end. It was more of a joke than anything else, but I can see where it might be taken the wrong way. So I'll edit it.
HMMM... It will not allow me to edit. Perhaps there's a time limit on being able to do so, because I'm being allowed to edit this one. Sorry, my friend. I'll reiterate that it was meant more as a good-natured joke, but I can see how it wouldn't be taken that way.
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Gary Osborne said:
Perhaps there's a time limit on being able to do so
There is a time limit, but I'm not sure what it is.
Gary Osborne said:it was meant more as a good-natured joke, but I can see how it wouldn't be taken that way
It is easy to be misunderstood in emails and forum posts. Should give us all a reason to pause prior to hitting the Post button [:D]
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Gary Osborne said:Sean McIntyre said:
The tone of this post is highly inappropriate, consider removing brother.
I'll amend the post, although I honestly wasn't trying to be mean. Thus the emote at the end. It was more of a joke than anything else, but I can see where it might be taken the wrong way. So I'll edit it.
HMMM... It will not allow me to edit. Perhaps there's a time limit on being able to do so, because I'm being allowed to edit this one. Sorry, my friend. I'll reiterate that it was meant more as a good-natured joke, but I can see how it wouldn't be taken that way.
Thanks Gary. I am quite sure that you do not wish to offend anyone.
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Gary Osborne said:Doc B said:
Because, Gary, your claim was one of 'Calvinistic bias', not non-Arminian bias. You can't change the definition as it suits you and claim you've won an objective argument.
Before I give you the last word, one addendum:
Actually, Doc, I've framed my personal comments in exactly that light. I H-A-V-E specifically stated that a big part of my frustration is the ratio of Calvinist works to Arminian/Pentecostal works. So on this point you are 100% wrong.
OK, let's let you speak for yourself:
"...there's no doubt in my mind that we've seen a really strong slant toward releasing more Reformed/Calvinistic material versus non-Reformed material"
"...I simply inquired about what I saw as a recent slant and imbalance toward more Calvinistic resources as compared to non-Calvinistic ones."
"...the rise of what I'd call a very aggressive push by Calvinists (hence my question about Logos and what I see as an overabundance of newer releases seeming to slant in that direction)."
"There has, in my opinion, been a very heavy output of Calvinism material as opposed to Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal material since I joined up with Logos"
"...what is offered slants far more toward the Calvinistic side of the theological pond than toward an Arminian side."
"Once more I'd just about guarantee that there's more Calvinistic leaning material in those groups than Arminian leaning."
You've also engaged in ad hominem attacks on both Logos and some of us who disagree with you:
"I think Logos is very unbalanced in this particular area. They need to do some serious catching up if they want to truly be fair and balanced in the Christian community."
"I'm not sure how anyone in good faith could argue otherwise..."
"...just try not to burn me at the stake - thankfully we aren't in Geneva any more..."
(Emoticons don't attenuate sarcasm.)
Based on the quotes taken from your posts in this thread, I would posit that I'm not only not 100% wrong, I'm less than 50% wrong. I don't have anything personal against you, and I don't even know you. But I can't move on without challenging claims of bias where clearly none exist, and inferences that differences in the number of resources are equated with an underlying agenda toward a particular theological worldview.
One more thing: you promised to eat your hat if there were not more Calvinist Logos users than non-Calvinist Logos users. I imagine that figure is at least implicitly available, since we are all asked to self-identify when we set up our accounts. Assuming Logos users mirror the national statistics within a margin of random error, and setting aside international users; based on the ratio of Calvinists to non-Calvinists in the US, I'd say that was a pretty risky bet from your end. You might want to boil it a while first.
There...that's the last word, as you've granted.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
I simply inquired about what I saw as a recent slant and imbalance toward more Calvinistic resources as compared to non-Calvinistic ones.
If you still cant understand why and wont listen to others, that Calvinism has a long history and is still very much alive what else do you want to be explained to you?
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Evan Boardman said:Doc B said:
I simply inquired about what I saw as a recent slant and imbalance toward more Calvinistic resources as compared to non-Calvinistic ones.
If you still cant understand why and wont listen to others, that Calvinism has a long history and is still very much alive what else do you want to be explained to you?
Evan, I believe the original quote was from Gary Osborne. Doc B was posting a string of quotes from him, and the one above was part of the string.
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You got the wrong attribution, Evan. Gary said that, not me.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
You got the wrong attribution, Evan. Gary said that, not me.
Does it matter? Your revisiting the question.
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Ok.. I see said the blind man.
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Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Sorry, I just had to comment on this: I opened my Logos homepage today and lo and behold what do I see, but a little Vyrso book being offered on sale entitled, Letters to a Young Calvinist. Just past that we have The Works of Augustus Hopkins Strong, describing him as a man who's theology "combined traditional Reformed emphases with Baptist convictions." And I guess I could add that there are works by Nevin, Ladd, and Shogren, none of which are anything close to Arminian, much less classical, conservative Pentecostals. I know Nevin is a Calvinist, not sure what exact classification the others would fall into. But they aren't Arminian/Pentecostal, that much I know for sure.
Just thought it was funny, not looking to rile anyone up.
I really would like to see a few more things offered that reflect the thinking and study from my side of the fence. I've asked Logos since day one of being a part of the family to please secure the rights to the "Full Life Study Bible", now retitled as the "Life in the Spirit Bible" with Zondervan and also the "Fire Bible" with Life Publishers. Either of those editions (essentially the same notes) would be fantastic resources for Logos customers who are of the Arminian/Pentecostal persuasion. Unfortunately Logos does offer the "New Spirit-Filled Life Bible", which is a poor substitute for the solid commentary found in the versions I'm referencing.
Sigh... [:(]
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Speaking of Arminian material, I do wish Logos would hurry up and get the Adam Clarke Commentary out. It's an absolute standard in my library and I'd really like to work with it in Logos.
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I feel your pain. I'd like to see more from the Stone-Campbell Restoration view but there's not much there.
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Gary Osborne said:
Boy, this thread got off track in a hurry. I simply inquired about what I saw as a recent slant and imbalance toward more Calvinistic resources as compared to non-Calvinistic ones. I'm well aware of how intense the theological debate is, especially over the last decade or so with the rise of what I'd call a very aggressive push by Calvinists (hence my question about Logos and what I see as an overabundance of newer releases seeming to slant in that direction). Nevertheless, I was hoping to just get a simple explanation as to why non-Calvinistic material (Arminian, Wesleyan, and classical Pentecostal) didn't seem to be offered at the same rate, or seem to be receiving the same "push" as the TULIP material did. If Logos needs recommendations, I can certainly offer plenty.
Heck, if they'd go back to the material offered on the AGES discs from the late 90's that would be a start. They had some incredible material on the "Master Christian Library" that spanned both theological streams with equality. An equality I do NOT see right now in Logos.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
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Thanks, Ed. I'm going to keep my word and not engage in any more specific back and forth with anyone that sees things differently. But that should not be construed as me agreeing with them on the point. I still see a lack of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal material that has been offered in "Ages" past and is missing in action now. [;)]
Hopefully many more resources will be added soon that reflect what we want to see in Logos.
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Logos has the Jimmy Swaggart Bible. I have one volume in hardcover (ordered before I became a Logos -customer), 1 Cor, it covers my needs on 1 Cor. To my understanding, Pentecostals often use tools that are produced by other denominations - but that is based on what I've seen ½-educated people use in different Bible softwares.
What genre do You want to see? Devotionals, Bible versions, theology on specific topics, respected authors?Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Well shut my mouth, Unix. I never knew Logos carried that bible. Although I don't think it can hold a candle to the Full Life Study Bible I've been wanting for years, it's certainly better than nothing in terms of Pentecostal material. I'm sufficiently surprised and taken aback by that one.
In terms of overall material I'd like to see, I'd say commentaries and theology books would be my biggest wants. Not so much devotionals. I'd like to see more works from Stanley Horton (Logos offers some, but there are more), William Menzies, Robert Menzies, Gordon Fee and other conservative Pentecostal writers. Perhaps some of the different regularly released journals that denominations like the Assemblies of God has put out over the years. As for Arminian/Wesleyan works, well there are just too many authors and books (past and present) to even begin listing names.
In general, you are correct that Pentecostals are traditionally known for using resources produced by others. Arminians/Wesleyans have been better along those lines, but even there it's the key classic works (the Wesley brothers, Clarke, Fletcher, etc) that should already be in Logos, imho. Getting back to Pentecostals, there's no doubt they haven't emphasized writing and publication like other groups, but that's all the more reason I'd like to see at least the few things, relatively speaking, that are out there available from Logos.
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Gary Osborne said:
Speaking of Arminian material, I do wish Logos would hurry up and get the Adam Clarke Commentary out. It's an absolute standard in my library and I'd really like to work with it in Logos.
Gary,
Did you see these recently-broken-out resources?
From: Arminian
Theological Studies Collection (5 vols.).Classical Arminianism: The Theology of Salvation
Grace, Faith, Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Gary Osborne said:
Speaking of Arminian material, I do wish Logos would hurry up and get the Adam Clarke Commentary out. It's an absolute standard in my library and I'd really like to work with it in Logos.
I don't know when you'll see my most recent post (containing links to some new Arminian resources), because of this annoying new feature (that now happens whenever you post a link, even to a logos.com product)-
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Type the links sans http and they. Will be dealt with like plain text. They can then be cut and pasted into the browser address bar.
Doc B said:Gary Osborne said:Speaking of Arminian material, I do wish Logos would hurry up and get the Adam Clarke Commentary out. It's an absolute standard in my library and I'd really like to work with it in Logos.
I don't know when you'll see my most recent post (containing links to some new Arminian resources), because of this annoying new feature (that now happens whenever you post a link, even to a logos.com product)-
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Doc,
Yep, I've got all of those (bought them in a bundle late last year). But I'm always glad to see Logos offer individual titles.
Thanks.
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That's right Jeremy. I am strongly conservative, evangelical and look at these packages as being something like a cable TV package. You get what you want and some that you may no necessarily want but for the price it's ok. I think like anything else you must know what you believe and then consider the fact there are a lot of different views and perspectives out there but only one Word of God. I inherited a lot of books from my dad who had nearly 70 years in ministry and I dread to think what I would have had to pay for those books. Plus the fact what search capabilities you gain from these software options. It all makes for excellent reading and study while at the same time you are given the opportunity to add your own notes.
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