Advance Notice: Logos Ending Windows XP Support October 26, 2012

Summary:

We are planning to drop support for Windows XP on October 26, 2012; your existing Logos 4 installs will continue to run, but future releases of Logos Bible Software will require Windows Vista SP2 or newer.

This will not disable any XP systems, but future releases of books may use new features or data types only available in newer versions of Logos, and thus will not be usable on Windows XP systems.

Rationale:

Logos 4 depends on a number of Microsoft platform components, including the .NET framework. With the October 26, 2012 release of Windows 8, Microsoft is upgrading the .NET 4 platform to .NET 4.5, which is an "in-place" install replacing .NET 4 (which we're planning to move to for many reasons, including performance and bug fixes).

.NET 4.5 will run on Windows Vista SP2 and later version of Windows, but specifically NOT Windows XP.

October 26, 2012 is the release date for Windows 8; at that point it will be 11 years since Windows XP was released (Oct 25, 2001), and it will be three full generations (Vista, 7, 8) out of date.

Very few Logos users remain on XP, and continuing to support XP in new releases takes development and testing resources, as well as making it more difficult to use other capabilities only offered on newer versions of Windows.

Advance Notice:

We have learned that nobody likes to get "discontinuation" news at the last minute. So this is our first advance notice, and your chance to speak up if there's a really compelling reason we should not drop XP on October 26, 2012. If we don't hear a compelling argument, we'll promote this news via other channels besides the forums soon.

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Comments

Larry Heflin

Now I finally have a reason to upgrade.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391343#Comment_391343

Wow ... looks like 'the best software ever written' is about to get another kudos: 'Runs on XP!' Woo hoo!!!

Paul Golder

January 2012:

Martin Grainger Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391354#Comment_391354

...but future releases of books may use new features or data types only available in newer versions of Logos, and thus will not be usable on Windows XP systems

Does it mean our old Logos 2 resources will not work anymore on future Logos 4 or Logos 5 releases? I believed once we've bought a resource will work on every existing or future Logos platforms. A statement about this particular issue? Thanks, Martin.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391358#Comment_391358

Does it mean our old Logos 2 resources

This change has nothing to do with ending support for books; it's about ending support for a version of Windows.

Room4more

Sounds Good Bob, Thanks for the Heads-up. I understand what you are posting, so we are still good with Win7 – 64 bit, correct/?

******

I just copied this for others to peruse:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/upgrade-offer?ocid=O_WOL_UPG_Home_Upgrade_en-us

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391367#Comment_391367

Great Bob, it's the right move and I am happy we are moving finally to .NET 4+, that will be great for the product.

For those that would throw market surveys out, you can find one to prove anything. This one says installed base is only 13% XP:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

And this one is Gartner, one of the prominent researchers not a non-name or un-sourced market survey like some would put out. In this article entitled, "Get off of Windows XP by 2013", they say XP is less than 5% of installed base, and they also mention by early 2014 Microsoft will no longer support XP and will not change that commitment:

http://redmondmag.com/articles/2012/05/22/get-off-windows-xp.aspx

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391349#Comment_391349

Wow ... looks like 'the best software ever written' is about to get another kudos: 'Runs on XP!' Woo hoo!!!

Any marketeer touting that in today's world likely gets fired within the month.

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391370#Comment_391370

I'm using windows 8 running logos 4, It's very good!

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391367#Comment_391367

Hmm...

XP users still account for 26% of Window's 80% market share, over three times the Mac share of 8.2%.

Granted XP's drop has been increasing to a high of 12% per year, but looking at it 12 months out this still puts XP at double the Mac use which seems to have hit it's peak at 9% earlier this year.

If Windows 8 comes out with enough force to finally dry up the remaining XP user base, this makes sense. But it seems like a heck of a gamble to drop support on one quarter of the Windows machines currently in use.

Just saying.

(OS Platform Statistics)

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391370#Comment_391370

Awesome! I'm glad to hear this news, and I can't wait for Logos to start taking advantage of the new functionality this opens up for them.

Personally, I can't wait for Logos to drop support for OS X Leopard on the Mac side. I understand why they wouldn't do it just yet, since it would leave PPC users in the dust, but the majority of Mac software dropped support for 10.5 a while ago. I would love to see a version of Logos that takes advantage of Grand Central Dispatch, 64-bit memory allocation, and Lion's fullscreen feature.

Todd Phillips

Microsoft is upgrading the .NET 4 platform to .NET 4.5,

Looking forward to this! Hopefully any showstopping .NET bugs that affect Logos will be gone by then.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391384#Comment_391384

Looking forward to this! Hopefully any showstopping .NET bugs that affect Logos will be gone by then.

[Y]

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391382#Comment_391382

Paul, those stats are for visitors of that particular web site. We have our own stats that reflect actual Logos users, and XP usage is much lower.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391370#Comment_391370

'Fired within a month', huh. (That sound curiously familar ... a book title or something maybe).

Ah, but I'm not a marketeer (maybe a mouse-kateer).

But if I could go out and buy a Bible software package with the best resouses, complete with personally managed licenses, installs, does sophosticated searches and cross-linked running on all of the Windows platforms with virtually no support requirements (I've had none going back to Win 3.3).

Yeh, granted that sounds a lot like A-Company. Definitely not the current offering.

Robert M. Warren

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391387#Comment_391387

We have our own stats that reflect actual Logos users, and XP usage is much lower.

My own anecdotal observation is that Macs would also have a much higher market share among users of Bible software, as opposed to the general public. I'm a Windows person, but I notice that many of the Reformed folks whom I read mention being Mac users, in addition to our friends in this forum. (Clearly, they all have higher disposable income than I.)

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391389#Comment_391389

'Fired within a month', huh. (That sound curiously familar ... a book title or something maybe).

Ah, but I'm not a marketeer (maybe a mouse-kateer).

But if I could go out and buy a Bible software package with the best resouses, complete with personally managed licenses, installs, does sophosticated searches and cross-linked running on all of the Windows platforms with virtually no support requirements (I've had none going back to Win 3.3).

Yeh, granted that sounds a lot like A-Company. Definitely not the current offering.

Point taken. DMB does not approve. What else is new. Let's move on.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391384#Comment_391384

Looking forward to this! Hopefully any show stopping .NET bugs that affect Logos will be gone by then.

I can think of at least two - there are some font bugs that I believe Bradley has said are fixed in 4+, and the crazy way the Home Page gets built (big space gaps etc.) is an issue related to current rev of .NET as well I think.

I would be AWESOME to get a list of outstanding reported problems/issues that moving to the next rev of .NET resolves!

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391387#Comment_391387

Paul, those stats are for visitors of that particular web site.

I know Bob, but W3 is often sited in statistical analysis [:)]

We have our own stats that reflect actual Logos users, and XP usage is much lower.

I can believe this, given that a very high percentage of XP hold-out is in business.

Looks like I will have to upgrade to a Win 7/8 netbook...

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391387#Comment_391387

Paul, those stats are for visitors of that particular web site. We have our own stats that reflect actual Logos users, and XP usage is much lower.

OK XP is dead [but I wonder if Logos counted our backup machines? [many that are still running Logos 3!] ]

But thanks for the heads up - My XP machine has been removed from the Internet for some time.

[My XP machine is still running - it was my Vista machine that died]

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391402#Comment_391402

Looks like I will have to upgrade to a Win 7/8 netbook.

Paul, if you are talking about a netbook with an atom processor, don't. They will strain to handle Logos4. Get a full fledged laptop one time. It took 24 hours for one of my co-workers to index L4. The time is much shorter now due to improvements in the software, but a netbook with 1-2 GB of ram will not cut the cake.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391405#Comment_391405

Glad to here you are moving on...

Let the rumor wheel begin! What do you think is coming out on Oct 26 to cause this move?:-)

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391409#Comment_391409

Let the rumor wheel begin! What do you think is coming out on Oct 26 to cause this move?:-)

Windows 8. October 26, 2012 is the release date for Windows 8; at that point it will be 11 years since Windows XP was released (Oct 25, 2001), and it will be three full generations (Vista, 7, 8) out of date.

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/53656.aspx. Sorry Halo Hound, I could have resisted, but that would be no fun.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391407#Comment_391407

They will strain to handle Logos4

It's no big deal Lynden, I've been fighting L4 on a netbook since the day it was released, and I too used to go through the 24 hour indexing [:|]

I probably will end up with a true laptop when the time comes though. But who knows, ever since I went Android, my tablet is pretty much the only computer that ever leaves the house with me.

Michael G Parry-Thomas

There are lots of people still out there using Windows XP it is very stable. I have tried Vista, and I find it as lots of bugs and the computer kept crashing. The cost of upgrading is impossible for some people I think it is a bad move, there must be many more features you can implement using .NET4

Will there be a safeguard in the new version that it will not corrupt existing Windows XP uses, will the beta channel be disabled for windows XP users?

Will all the bugs be fixed for the .net4 Windows XP users?

Most software companies normally make sure that they can run their software on most operating systems.

I've noticed a new version of Dragon natural speaking 4 has been released, and it still supported and runs on Windows XP. I enjoy using logos 4, I currently have the platinum version, with many add-on books which I purchased over several years, in my case. I would have to stop purchasing books, for quite some time to save up funds to enable me to upgrade to another Windows version there's no way I can use Vista.

I only purchase a few books every month, I have some books on order in the community pricing
I am concerned that these books will not be supported
or even have problems running on Windows XP
Michael Parry-Thomas

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391416#Comment_391416

Michael, if you upgrade your ox, skip Vista and straight to Windows 7. More stable and use less resources.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391419#Comment_391419

Michael, if you upgrade your ox, skip Vista and straight to Windows 7. More stable and use less resources.

It's like night and day [Y]

Michael G Parry-Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391419#Comment_391419

I've just run a Microsoft system report For upgrading from XP to Windows 7 It states a version of Windows 32-bit would be okay, but it also says it may run 64-bit how do I choose Between the two

Should I stick to a 32-bit as all my programs are running on Windows xp 32-bit, I will have two keep an eye out for a bargain on eBay, must be genuine version

Thanks for your information I didn't think my system would cope with Windows 7

Sam Henderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391423#Comment_391423

Not happy. I lease an employer-provided laptop, from a government department here in Australia which is only just beginning to image their new rollouts with Windows 7. They are not prepared to offer support if I upgrade the system on my laptop to anything newer than XP. Interesting dilemma ... give up buying new Logos releases or lose customer support on my laptop until the next trienniel rollout.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391429#Comment_391429

I've just run a Microsoft system report For upgrading from XP to Windows 7 It states a version of Windows 32-bit would be okay, but it also says it may run 64-bit how do I choose Between the two

Should I stick to a 32-bit as all my programs are running on Windows xp 32-bit, I will have two keep an eye out for a bargain on eBay, must be genuine version

Thanks for your information I didn't think my system would cope with Windows 7

You should get the 64 bit version if you have the choice. Any normal 32-bit program will run on a 64-bit OS, with the exception of certain drivers. So unless you're running some legacy or highly specialized hardware that doesn't have 64-bit drivers available, go for the 64-bit OS.

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391383#Comment_391383

Am hoping the same type of strategy for OSX - I'd like to be able to use the full future capability of my machine at 12 Cores/24 Threads and /96 Gig Ram and Dual Mercury Accelsior RAID 0 PCI Express SSD's running at 1.64 Gigabyte I/O transfer and 200,000 I/O operations a second.

Right now I can only use 4Cores/4 threads and 2 Gig of RAM.Thats about 2% of the available RAM and 15% of the available CPU. The RAID Drives would be instantaneous for all practical purposes. If the application was architected to utilize the operating system from Snow Leopard or higher it would read my entire index into RAM in about 2 Seconds.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391456#Comment_391456

Right now I can only use 2 Cores and 2 Gig of RAM.

I don't understand the 2 core limit. On Windows it will use threads extensively across multiple physical cores. When indexing it restricts itself to 4 resource threads at a time, which could be allocated to 4 physical cores or two hyperthreaded cores whilst more threads/cores do other tasks.

The 2 GB RAM limit is more to do with L4 being 32-bit, although it could be allocated a theoretical maximum of 4 GB (incl. data).

it would read my entire index into RAM in about 2 Seconds

If you wanted to use the data it would have to be structured as a RAMdisk as indexes can be > 2 GB. But why bother when there would be no noticeable difference with an SSD accessing both resources (> 8 GB) and indexes.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391456#Comment_391456

I'd like to be able to use the full future capability of my machine at 12 Cores/24 Threads and /96 Gig Ram and Dual Mercury Accelsior RAID 0 PCI Express SSD's running at 1.64 Gigabyte I/O transfer and 200,000 I/O operations a second.

Holy hardware, Batman!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391389#Comment_391389

'Fired within a month', huh. (That sound curiously familar ... a book title or something maybe).

Ah, but I'm not a marketeer (maybe a mouse-kateer).

But if I could go out and buy a Bible software package with the best resouses, complete with personally managed licenses, installs, does sophosticated searches and cross-linked running on all of the Windows platforms with virtually no support requirements (I've had none going back to Win 3.3).

Yeh, granted that sounds a lot like A-Company. Definitely not the current offering.

Denise,

Stay clear of Windows 8 as Libronix 3.0g (L3) doesn't run too well -- unless Logos will fix the issues with Search, Verse Lists, saving Workspaces (what I've found so far in W8 Release Preview).

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391416#Comment_391416

Will there be a safeguard in the new version that it will not corrupt existing Windows XP uses, will the beta channel be disabled for windows XP users? From what I can tell, Microsoft is discontinuing support of XP April 8, 2014. At that point, they will not guarantee or support any of THEIR updates, fixes , etc. on XP, including .NET updates. Fixes or problems will not be addressed on the XP platform.

Will all the bugs be fixed for the .net4 Windows XP users? If it's a Logos bug that is across platforms, sure - but they won't be likely running XP, so if they can't duplicate it on a supported platform then they won't fix it. Same as Microsoft.

I've noticed a new version of Dragon natural speaking 4 has been released, and it still supported and runs on Windows XP. -> Once Microsoft stops support of XP, many software vendors will do the same. They can't really support the product any more if the operating system vendor no longer supports what they run on. They could hit a problem or need help and it's just not there. I suspect Logos has to do some things to the product that told them this is the time. Plus, if you read the web, even today support of the XP platform is considerably more expensive for software firms than Vista or Windows 7.

I am concerned that these books will not be supported or even have problems running on Windows XP - read Bob's post again. It's not about books, although new books will have new data types in them that will not work on XP.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391416#Comment_391416

Will there be a safeguard in the new version that it will not corrupt existing Windows XP uses, will the beta channel be disabled for windows XP users?

Will all the bugs be fixed for the .net4 Windows XP users?

Most software companies normally make sure that they can run their software on most operating systems.

Note that L4 runs on .NET 3.5 at present. I don't think Logos will work with .NET 4.0 as that is not compatible with Windows 8, so if you try to update L4 after October you should get an error during installation as .NET 4.5 won't run on Windows XP!

In short, all the bugs cannot be fixed for Win XP users on .NET 3.5 as some will depend on .NET 4.5. And I can't say if Logos will fix all the other bugs before October...

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391473#Comment_391473

Dave ... thank you for the heads up on L3. Currently all of my L3s are running on XP except for the single one on W7-64/internet. From what I've read about W8, I'm still looking for value-added (vs cutsie). Microsoft reminds me of the little boy who has almost all the candy, but sees another little boy with candy he doesn't have.

Regarding Bob's announcement, I think he deserves some credit (not that I'm any great expert). I guess some other forum member(s) felt threatened with the mention of Libronix (though I'm careful to screen the name with 'the best software ever written').

(1) His announcement giving fair warning and asking for input is absolutely great. Name me another software company like that. There's probably some smaller ones but it's very refreshing.

(2) Common sense would suggest that Logos4 already pre-defined the operating environment (power!). So it's not surprising L4 has few XP platforms left, compared to industry.

(3) Given so many developers on the forum, it should be pretty obvious trying to sit over top W7 and XP for each update is a big headache. I guess there's still a group on Vista users but if not, I would have tried to sit on W7 so they could concentrate on W8. I suspect Proclaim colors the decision.

(4) On another thread Bob 'finally' pierced the heart of WPF. I don't know why emotionally I find that gratifying but I do (I'm not talking about apologies etc; just recognifition that some users got beat up in the process, along with a lot of Logos developers; I'm sure they weren't too thrilled when bugs showed up periodically).

(5) And lastly, maybe regular L4 users didn't notice but I did. For whatever reason, after L3 resource format production stopped, Logos really sped up breaking up collections. So my Logos purchases have been continuing in a happy fashion. That's also been refreshing.

And I DO like Libronix (in addition to Logos4 of course).

Bill Coley

We are planning to drop support for Windows XP on October 26, 2012; your existing Logos 4 installs will continue to run, but future releases of Logos Bible Software will require Windows Vista SP2 or newer.

I have Logos installed on two XP machines, both of which perform flawlessly (a third installation is on a Win 7-64 bit box). Because as currently configured, the two XP machines do everything I need them to do in ways and at speeds I need them to do those things - and because I have no other compelling desires to upgrade either of those machines, I receive this Logos decision as a very frustrating and disappointing development.

Because I understand the realities of OS development and the value of technological advance, I also receive this Logos decision as a necessary move forward.

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391381#Comment_391381

I'm using windows 8 running logos 4, It's very good!

How are you able to use Windows 8? Is that a beta version?

I guess this means I need to get a new PC; I'm still running XP on a many-years-old PC with 3GB RAM.

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391473#Comment_391473

'Fired within a month', huh. (That sound curiously familar ... a book title or something maybe).

Ah, but I'm not a marketeer (maybe a mouse-kateer).

But if I could go out and buy a Bible software package with the best resouses, complete with personally managed licenses, installs, does sophosticated searches and cross-linked running on all of the Windows platforms with virtually no support requirements (I've had none going back to Win 3.3).

Yeh, granted that sounds a lot like A-Company. Definitely not the current offering.

Denise,

Stay clear of Windows 8 as Libronix 3.0g (L3) doesn't run too well -- unless Logos will fix the issues with Search, Verse Lists, saving Workspaces (what I've found so far in W8 Release Preview).

So should I get a new PC with Windows 7 that is upgradeable to 8? Or should I wait till Windows 8 is out and get it installed on my new PC from the beginning?

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391462#Comment_391462

Dave H -

My basic point is that Logos does not use the available hardware that the Operating System can manage.

The CPU limit that I notice is 4 Threads spread over 4 Cores. Each Core can dispatch 2 Threads on my machine so in reality it is only using 2 Cores equivalent. It is obvious it is CPU bottlenecked for instance in a re-index operation.

The RAM limit could possibly be overcome with a RAM Disk strategy but there are caveats to that approach.

Granted the Disk I/O is massive.

The bottom line is that Logos has a very limited ability to use the hardware if it is there.

As a contrast in a completely different knowledge domain, astrophotometry, in the use of various digital tools for hunting variable stars, deep space objects, pointing maps, tracking control to sub-arc second accuracy, where the data sets can reach 10 gigabytes for a single image, (or in some cases 3600 images) the software I use exploits all the hardware to accomplish that task. Logos on the other hand show's it is running with 2 hands tied behind its back.

That is all I am really trying to point out with as little ambiguity as possible.

Scott E. Mahle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391533#Comment_391533

So should I get a new PC with Windows 7 that is upgradeable to 8? Or should I wait till Windows 8 is out and get it installed on my new PC from the beginning?

Hello, Eric!

My son just purchased a new laptop with Windows 7 Home and will be upgraded to Windows 8 Pro for $14.95 on October 26. The deals on the Windows 7 computers are pretty good right now if you look around. I’d go for the 7.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391474#Comment_391474

Will there be a safeguard in the new version that it will not corrupt existing Windows XP uses, will the beta channel be disabled for windows XP users?

It will not corrupt an existing installation on Windows XP.

Recent versions of Logos 4 include a check that prevents them from automatically downloading an update that is not supported by the current OS. (So if, hypothetically, Logos 4.7 is tagged as Vista-only, and you're running Logos 4.6 on Windows XP, running "update now" will display "No updates available".)

If you manually download the installer from the Internet and try to run it, it will check your OS and display an error message informing you that it's not supported.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391561#Comment_391561

The biggest question is, "Can we have the .NET 4.5-based version of Logos on October *27th*??? Please???!!!" The prospect of performance improvements based on the fundamental improvements in .NET 4.5 is exciting.

Donnie

Evan Boardman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391561#Comment_391561

My Puter is Vista but my laptop is Xp. Perhaps its time to buy an IPad.[8-|]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391407#Comment_391407

Paul, if you are talking about a netbook with an atom processor, don't. They will strain to handle Logos4. Get a full fledged laptop one time.

Mt Atom 270 netbook runs Logos 4 (and everything else) faster than Windows XP or Vista. And it is satisfactory to my needs. My only complaint is with the indexing.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391561#Comment_391561

It will not corrupt an existing installation on Windows XP.

Recent versions of Logos 4 include a check that prevents them from automatically downloading an update that is not supported by the current OS. (So if, hypothetically, Logos 4.7 is tagged as Vista-only, and you're running Logos 4.6 on Windows XP, running "update now" will display "No updates available".)

If you manually download the installer from the Internet and try to run it, it will check your OS and display an error message informing you that it's not supported.

Thank You for telling us that those checks are in place. Please also post on the MAC item on the same subject that that code is in the MAC version.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391533#Comment_391533

So should I get a new PC with Windows 7 that is upgradeable to 8? Or should I wait till Windows 8 is out and get it installed on my new PC from the beginning?

I would caution you not to upgrade to Windows 8 for at least one year after release. Microsoft has NEVER released a finely tuned operation system. Go count your Windows 7 fixes if you disagree. (Remember Windows 7 is the best Redmond has ever offered.)

I also wish sometimes for a return to horse & buggy days.[au]

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391595#Comment_391595

I would concur about running Windows 8 too early. I have the preview version, I upgraded to production version today (developers can get it now). I have been running Logos (all of this on a backup computer), along with other stuff. It's not slower, not faster. But the user interface is frustratingly different. I keep thinking that everything takes 4 more mouse clicks to make happen. It's quite possible IMHO it's really only going to seem better for someone with a touch screen display, which mine is not. I really don't think I am going to upgraded any of my real computers to Win 8 for quite a while, and this is the first time I have ever done this. I think we may see a major customer negative reaction to the user interface, but that's just my opinion. In any case, be sure and try it before you convert to it - you may not like it.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/391595#Comment_391595

Microsoft has NEVER released a finely tuned operation system

We Mac users would welcome another Vista [:D]