Earn Your Doctorate
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I probably don't need to say this, but there are a lot of DMin programs available, and many with distance learning options. I'd have to rate using Logos software as one of the least important items on my checklist of what to look for in a DMin program. First, theological compatibility, second, focus areas available for study, third size of the program and number of course offerings, fourth, faculty, fifth, reputation of the DMin from the school, sixth, ease of attending, and seventh, cost. (You'll, perhaps, have some different criteria, but I'd hate to see you put Logos as the primary criterion.)
It's nice Logos is teaming up with Knox (or visa versa), but I don't think three or four of the books I read for my DMin are in Logos format (of course I started my DMin over 20 years ago, before the boom in Logos, but I do wonder what I'd find in Logos format at the DMin programs of many seminaries). So if you are really interested in a DMin program, select one that will advance you significantly in the practical areas of ministry you feel a need, and forget about Logos. In the event you find two seminaries offering appealing DMin programs, all other things being equal, I'd lean toward the one using Logos for at least some of their work.
Like I said, probably doesn't need to be said, but, there, I said it anyway.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Jonathan Sine said:Keith Larson said:
So the cost for those with Portfolio will be $15,650?
I'm wondering if anyone from Logos can confirm this?
Jonathan,
Thanks for the question. If you currently have Portfolio, the the total for the program will be $15,855.00. I hope that helps.
If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to call us and ask to speak to those in charge of Knox. They can more than answer any and all questions you may have.
Cliff
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Robert Iversen said:
Just jumping in on the tale end of this... does any school offer a M.A., M.S., or M.Div. using Logos software with distance learning? Just curious, as I would love to get my M.A. at some point.
Moody Theological Seminary (www.moody.edu) offers many courses in their MA and M.Div as intensive modulars. I earned my MAMin in 2008 and am now working on the M.Div spending no more than 5 days on campus per course. Original languages work relies heavily on Logos.
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I did a Google search on Knox Theological Seminary and came up with quite a few articles about what many deemed as heretical teaching. I found comments stating, after issues, most wouldn't "touch this seminary with a 10-foot pole." I find it interesting that LOGOS is partnering. I don't have a clue if this has changed in the last couple years, but Waltke was teaching evolutionism. Here's an link to an article: http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2010/04/15/the-waltke-controversy/ Additionally, RC Sproul resigned from the board afer Waltke was removed in an overwhelming vote, and then was brought immediately back. Personally, this would not be my first choice of seminaries, regardless of cost or affiliation with the Bible software that I love. I advice lots of prayer before jumping on board!
In His name,
Garry
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Garry Glaub said:
I did a Google search on Knox Theological Seminary and came up with quite a few articles about what many deemed as heretical teaching. I found comments stating, after issues, most wouldn't "touch this seminary with a 10-foot pole." I find it interesting that LOGOS is partnering. I don't have a clue if this has changed in the last couple years, but Waltke was teaching evolutionism. Here's an link to an article: http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2010/04/15/the-waltke-controversy/ Additionally, RC Sproul resigned from the board afer Waltke was removed in an overwhelming vote, and then was brought immediately back. Personally, this would not be my first choice of seminaries, regardless of cost or affiliation with the Bible software that I love. I advice lots of prayer before jumping on board!
In His name,
Garry
There are quite a number of differing positions on the question of evolution. So long as one maintained that ultimately it is God who created man, even if he used the process of evolution, I would not be too concerned. It is silly to maintain that the biblical account of creation is a scientific view. I am reminded of words attributed to Galileo when he was forced to recant his view that the earth moves rather than the then "orthodox" opinion which was held as biblical that it was the sun and planets which moved around the earth. He allegedly muttered "Nevertheless the earth moves." It is not wise to attempt to have one's interpretation of scripture (which is itself subject to error) dictate what one finds through scientific investigation. I think totally denying that evolution occurs is a foolish position. It certainly does not affect one's relationship with God.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Hmmph. I never earned an MDiv, but boy that piece of paper cost a lotta green-backs..................
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Garry Glaub said:
afer Waltke was removed in an overwhelming vote, and then was brought immediately back.
I don't want to wade through all the information about this situation again, but I believe the controversy concerned Dr Warren Gage and not Dr Waltke. Dr Waltke came to Knox later. He does hold to theistic evolution, but that was not the big controversy.
My memory could possibly be faulty, but that is what I remember about my Google search.
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Room4more said:
Hmmph. I never earned an MDiv, but boy that piece of paper cost a lotta green-backs..................
You think it was costly in monetary terms; consider the cost in study. Hopefully that was even more demanding.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Study! hahahaha......yeah I think I did that too! I even dated a cheer-leader.....hehehe - What a Beautiful Bride!![:D]
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Garry Glaub said:
I did a Google search on Knox Theological Seminary and came up with quite a few articles about what many deemed as heretical teaching. I found comments stating, after issues, most wouldn't "touch this seminary with a 10-foot pole."
Logos Bible Software Users,
We are a widely divergent group of users and of believers. In regards to Knox Seminary, I suggest that you go to their website and learn about what they believe and practice. You will also likely want to examine Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (Truth in Action Ministry). Then you can decide if the Seminary is right for you.
In terms of the faculty, you have some OUTSTANDING faculty that are part of this D.Min program. That Bruce Waltke might be heretical is certainly a stretch by all but the most narrow of learners, IMHO. Bruce Waltke is an outstanding scholar and highly respected in Old Testament studies. I remember him speaking at conferences at Dallas Theological Seminary. His messages would be packed with students... some of us even understood part of what he was talking about.
A scholar, he did not try to "baby" us with anything watered down. Does Waltke believe in a young earth view of creation? Probably not. And I know that this has become a theological test for some. Silly, in my view. Where is the historical weight behind that? Shoot, even J. Vernon McGee... someone with great conservative credentials and a pastor's heart... believed in a very old earth. But if this is an issue for someone getting a D.Min or any other graduate degree, I would suggest that person rethink their educational goals.
Warren Gage is also an excellent scholar and professor. I can't think about how many times I have recommended his book, The Story of Joseph and Judah. This is a Narrative study of this extended storyline in Genesis written at a level anyone can benefit from. Excellent. He also happens to be trained as a Lawyer, but don't hold that against him!
Many already know Dr. Sam Lamerson and his background in New Testament studies. I remember meeting Dr. Sam at Knox for a class with Dr. Steve Runge on using the Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament tools http://www.logos.com/product/3888/lexham-discourse-greek-new-testament-bundle for bible study and how discourse markers in the Greek narrative give us important clues for opening up the text of Scripture. He was in that class as well. A neat man with a good heart. No, I don't know his view of creation.
Haddon Robinson? Well, we could go on and on.
I would suggest you check out the program and see if it works for you, if you are looking for a D.Min program. I wouldn't suggest you consider a faculty member's view on creation (assuming they hold to the fact that God created life and matter) as a means to finding a great program, unless that view is as important as the fundamentals of the faith for you.
Finally, I went to Dallas Theological Seminary. I have never done the search but I know that you can find garbage on Dallas Theological Seminary and people who wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. It was (and continues to be) a great school with outstanding programs of instruction. And the same could be said for a dozen other schools... they will have great programs and they will have people posting garbage about them. Everyone will have their own opinions of schools and programs, so I urge people to check things out for themselves.
JJ
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I am not being argumentative, as all of us have the challenge of living our beliefs. Personally, I see the "theory" of evolution as the greatest lie, attempting to prove that man came from ape. My personal beliefs and conviction would deter me from pursuing a doctorate at an institution teaching that. For me, with that kind of teaching, a seminary becomes a cemetery. My point in posting the information from the Google search was to encourage others to thorougly check out an institution before jumping forward with two feet. I attended an undergraduate college that taught much that conflicted my beliefs, but I didn't go in blindly, accepting those teachings as truth. But I do think some of the fallacy seeped in, and my biblical world view was damaged. Each of us has a line to draw in the sand, and we decide what we will accept and what we will not accept. Would we attend a seminary that taught Jesus was a great man, but not God? Would we attend a seminary where the teachers believed the Bible was nothing more than a great piece of literature written by man? Some would. Some wouldn't. My encouragement is to make sure ANY seminary is the right fit for your conviction -- not just your pocket!
Blessings to all,
Garry
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Garry Glaub said:
I am not being argumentative, as all of us have the challenge of living our beliefs. Personally, I see the "theory" of evolution as the greatest lie, attempting to prove that man came from ape. My personal beliefs and conviction would deter me from pursuing a doctorate at an institution teaching that. For me, with that kind of teaching, a seminary becomes a cemetery. My point in posting the information from the Google search was to encourage others to thorougly check out an institution before jumping forward with two feet. I attended an undergraduate college that taught much that conflicted my beliefs, but I didn't go in blindly, accepting those teachings as truth. But I do think some of the fallacy seeped in, and my biblical world view was damaged. Each of us has a line to draw in the sand, and we decide what we will accept and what we will not accept. Would we attend a seminary that taught Jesus was a great man, but not God? Would we attend a seminary where the teachers believed the Bible was nothing more than a great piece of literature written by man? Some would. Some wouldn't. My encouragement is to make sure ANY seminary is the right fit for your conviction -- not just your pocket!
Blessings to all,
Garry
Had you not wished to be argumentative (note the contrary-to-fact construction), you would not have provided argumentation in support of your position calling it "heretical teaching." Furthermore, you would not have continued it now with an exacerbation of your claim. What you would have done had you simply wished to call attention to a fact of which others might wish to be aware (again, contrary-to-fact) would simply be to mention that you thought Waltke espoused such a position. This may not be a forum for theological debate, but you also don't get a "get out of jail free" card to attack other positions with impunity. Please stop now before this decends into a full-blown argument.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Garry Glaub said:
I am not being argumentative, as all of us have the challenge of living our beliefs.... My encouragement is to make sure ANY seminary is the right fit for your conviction -- not just your pocket!
Thank you for the kind words, Garry. I too hope I did not seem argumentative. I think we agree on how to pick a school, even if we don't see eye to eye with the danger of Waltke's view on creation as being central to that choice. That is fine.
To clarify, I wanted to point out that Waltke believes the following: That God created the heavens and the earth. That the philosophical beliefs of evolutionary science are contra-biblical and are to be rejected. That first matter (the universe, if you will) was not a matter of evolving process but of God's creative work. That first life was a creative work of God (by His command) and that no chemical evolutionary process was needed. That Adam and Eve are real historical people created by God (Waltke does not believe that man descended from apes). Waltke also says that he is very friendly to young earth theorists, though he believes that they have a very uphill battle. And finally, he states very clearly that he could be wrong about his old earth views, but he just doesn't believe that the young earth models of creation take into consideration the text of scripture very well. (see his often lauded commentary on Genesis).
So, in short, Waltke is not an evolutionary scientist. He has no science background at all in terms of his training. He is definitely an evangelical Christian in his teachings and beliefs, though clearly not a young earth model.
Let me also agree with you that I think that Waltke has some errors in his belief of creation. He himself has apologized for stating that he feared that some young earth believers get close to being "cult-like". He has apologized for that statement and he has tried to expunge the video where he said that. I, with you, think that Waltke gives too much credence to some evolutionary processes. I would disagree with him on several points. However, I know that I could learn so much from Dr. Waltke that I don't have to agree with him on every tangental issue, so long as we are seeing eye to eye on the fundamentals. You and I probably disagree there and that is fine. I understand your position and thank you for your clarification.
Finally, let me commend to every one the fine commentary by Alan P. Ross on Genesis (Creation and Blessing) to help see what is happening in the text of Scripture in Genesis 1-3. No, it won't answer the question about young earth or old earth, but it helps to understand what is going on in the Hebrew of Genesis. My own personal beliefs are that it really doesn't matter one way or the other. I would love to have any version of young earth theories to be correct, as it would dislodge evolutionary philosophy from our schools. However, if the earth is 5 Billion years old (if that is true) it doesn't upset any conservative Biblical understanding of the Genesis account.
God Richly Blesses,
JJ
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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JJ Miller said:
Everyone will have their own opinions of schools and programs, so I urge people to check things out for themselves.
I keep getting emails for degree programs at Knox. I have searched their website for an answer, to no avail, to one critical question I have. Is Knox accredited? Here is my concern: Knox generally requires an accredited Bachelor's degree to enrol in their, apparently, unaccredited degree. Need I say more
I have nothing against unaccredited schools. I have much against them having a double-standard.
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Super Tramp said:JJ Miller said:
Everyone will have their own opinions of schools and programs, so I urge people to check things out for themselves.
I keep getting emails for degree programs at Knox. I have searched their website for an answer, to no avail, to one critical question I have. Is Knox accredited? Here is my concern: Knox generally requires an accredited Bachelor's degree to enrol in their, apparently, unaccredited degree. Need I say more
I have nothing against unaccredited schools. I have much against them having a double-standard.
"Knox first received accreditation in 2005 through Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada.[1] ATS accreditation is recognized by the United States Department of Education and the Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation for the accreditation of graduate professional theological education.
Knox offers the Master of Divinity, Doctor of Ministry, Master of Arts in Christianity and Culture, Master of Arts in Biblical and Theological Studies, and the Master of Arts in Evangelism degrees."
Wikipedia, s.v. "Knox Theological Seminary"
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Heresy is a strong accusation. Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is God in human flesh, that He died on the cross as atonement for our sins, that He rose bodily from the death winning for us eternal life, that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, that He will return to this earth to judge the world and reward his saints, and that the Bible is Word - anyone who believes these things cannot be a guilty of heresy.
They may be confused, if they do not agree with me about other things, but they are confused Christians, not heretics.
On the other hand to accuse someone who believes the essentials of the faith of heresy is a very unloving act. And that is as serious as heresy itself.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
George Somsel said:
Knox offers the Master of Divinity, Doctor of Ministry, Master of Arts in Christianity and Culture, Master of Arts in Biblical and Theological Studies, and the Master of Arts in Evangelism degrees."
Wikipedia, s.v. "Knox Theological Seminary"
Thanks Jonathan & George. I wish Knox would post that on their own website.
I still find it interesting that South African Theological Seminary is accredited by an American agency. [:O] Now if only we could export Americanized Christianity that way! (Please don't stone me. I was half-joking. [6] )
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Super Tramp said:
I still find it interesting that South African Theological Seminary is accredited by an American agency.
Now if only we could export Americanized Christianity that way! (Please don't stone me. I was half-joking. 
)Thanks for letting me know. In that case, I'll only halfway stone you. [;)] [6]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:
I wish Knox would post that on their own website.
They do...http://www.knoxseminary.edu/programs/programs-of-study/
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David Thomas said:Super Tramp said:
I wish Knox would post that on their own website.
They do...http://www.knoxseminary.edu/programs/programs-of-study/
I did not find it on the page you linked to but I did find it here: http://www.knoxseminary.edu/about/about-knox/
I am really not concerned with their accreditation. I just thought they may turn away students with unaccredited Bachelor's diplomas from many of the Bible schools across America. The South African seminary I referenced earlier felt compelled to seek American accreditation because they were somehow not taken seriously without it. I maintain the lack of accreditation does not always signify a sub-par education, nor the presence of accreditation prove to always be superior. One thing is always true; accreditation will cost you more in tuition, thereby excluding poor students from acquiring that degree.
All that said, I would be thrilled to get an education through Knox.
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