Warning Label Request:
I re-submit my request which was deleted without courtesy or due notice to the public forum as follows: ( this is not North Korea, this is a respectful and legitimate inquiry ).
[redacted]
So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?
Comments
- try filtering your search results by manually checking each books title page. ( i would like to filter my results - isn't this what software is for - doing research which is too laborious / time costly / computationally impossible to do by hand? )
-
offer base packages by
Denomination ( of which only a “catholic” advertised one has
been made at the moment TBA for others) -
remove Verbum advertising and
concept. Which is catholic re-badge of a non-denominational
software product.
So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?
No. We don't need warning labels.
If you would like a list of "approved" books I suggest you contact your pastor, priest, or elder and ask them. Restricting your buying to such a list will surely save you money.
this is not North Korea
Not very many citizens of North Korea would be keen on warning labels, IMHO.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?
Vincent did a good job of answering from the business side.
I think it was M.J. who pointed out that if Logos
didn't include resources that were not acceptable to some Christians we
would be left with only one or two books of the bible and nothing else.
Quite true.
However, there is simple empirical evidence of the difficulty of implementing your proposal. The Stone-Campbell movement, in which I was raised, spawned about 27 different Church of Christ groups - all of which are sure that they are the true Christians. A Southern Baptist minister in the forums told a joke that having 4 Southern Baptists in a room meant you had 6 positions. The Catholic/Orthodox tradition to which I belong has a rich history of disagreement - in a couple of millenia there is probably no topic not argued over.
As it is impossible for humans to know the mind of God, we have to go with the definition commonly used in English-speaking culture. Therefore it is safe to say Logos does label "books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with" They are called Logos resources. Were Logos to go further would lead them into the sin of hubris - not something I would want to be a part of.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Well, it's certainly a 'forum'. I'd assume theologically that Logos, not being 'church-y', has no ability to discern other than to each his/her own. But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability). And so all the little Church of Christs in West Texas (my Dad attending ACC about the same time, and preached several).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).
I like it that way. [:)]
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).
I like it that way, too. That is precisely why I recommend asking one's pastor for an "approved" list of books. (If one is so inclined...)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).I like it that way, too. That is precisely why I recommend asking one's pastor for an "approved" list of books. (If one is so inclined...)
My recommended list: Anything your little pea-pickin' heart chooses to read.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
It's hard to know where to begin with this thread, except that it looked to be one of those fun ones for us lurkers to follow (our name is legion) while enjoying popcorn and being amazed at just how far people will go on a forum like this. I guess its a true blessing that it never gained traction, and I suppose my even posting to it is a macabre kind of wishful for tragedy voyeurism (not unlike watching me do a children's sermon every week).
My only thought is how sad it would be to honestly believe that warning labels were required, just in case false doctrine crept in, and some poor soul failed the test and was rejected at the gates. How perfectly sad to live in such a state of fear.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 1 Jn 4:18.
Be at peace. God is love, and He is not trying to catch us in some doctrinal snare.
After all, once we get there we'll all be Reformed. (joke, joke, joke, jk!!!) [:)]
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
Come out !She was afraid to come out of the locker...
she was as nervous as she could be...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR98gRckjmY
Mk 5.9
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
A Southern Baptist minister in the forums told a joke that having 4 Southern Baptists in a room meant you had 6 positions.
Maybe even more [:D]
I've been asked to step in and post something here.... so:
We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.
Each of these labels, while never as precise as some people may want, is a useful indication of the book's content and slant. "Publisher" is going to do a good job of telling you 'what denomination/perspective will find this acceptable,' and when the publisher is too broad or unknown, you still have the author's name you can look up.
We've found that almost every book has some acceptance from people across a wide denominational perspective, and almost any book can be despised/mistrusted by people in the same denomination.
Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users. We may or may not segment other content based on market size and demand. But even these segments cross lines -- there are books that are included in both the Logos and Verbum base packages. And users of each who want resources sold with the other.
-- Bob
We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.
Thanks for stepping in, Bob. I'm not quite sure I understand this though. Are you saying that you will not attach labels? Surely the website already attaches labels according to "Christian Group" to some resources? Personally, I like having this information and would like this information to be available in Logos.
It seems that often this kind of label can be applied non-controversially and I think that in these cases it can be helpful. I suggested something similar here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/54491/396432.aspx#396432, including an approach that many people of different persuasions seemed to be comfortable with. I'd value your comments regarding why it would be unhelpful, remembering that I am not suggesting that all resources are labelled. My basic distinction is that authors and publishers should self-define.
Some people might use these labels to tell them what to avoid reading, or as warning labels, and this would keep them happy, but I would be more likely to be looking for an Anglican, Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist... perspective on a particular issue, or the way that a particular group uses a particular word or phrase. Logos can be really useful to find this information, but it would be even more so if we could simply say group:Mormon, for example, as part of our search. As it is, we need user-created collections and then to search those collections (see link above), which is much more cumbersome for each individual user.
Most of us do not have a detailed understanding of the background, denomination, presuppositions, etc. that publishers have, never mind authors, given the wide range of resources available in Logos, so it would be useful if Logos could help to provide that information within the program, and not just on the website.
Again, thanks for responding.
We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.
Thanks for stepping in, Bob. I'm not quite sure I understand this though. Are you saying that you will not attach labels?
Well usually I'm too late and too uninformed to be of much help, but I got this one.
Is he saying Logos will not attach labels? Yes. That's what he's saying. He's saying that the books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.
Thanks for stepping in, Bob. I'm not quite sure I understand this though. Are you saying that you will not attach labels?
Well usually I'm too late and too uninformed to be of much help, but I got this one.
Is he saying Logos will not attach labels? Yes. That's what he's saying. He's saying that the books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.
So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
I've been asked to step in and post something here.... so:
Thank you - I'll drop out now.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Hi Bob,
I realize that if you take this issue to heart it may put you in a spiritual dilemma. I sympathize with you because if this issue does strike a spiritual nerve, then it might require resolutions that you might find hard to carry out. All I can do is reply in sincerity, with this appeal in summary.
I am not condemning you if you do or ever have made business decisions which might be such that your conscience convicts you about it.
I acknowledge your efforts as a Christian trying to run a fair business with integrity, that just happens to be a Christian related software business that is trying to be non-denominational.
People will get behind you and support you if you have to make business decisions which are costly in order to do what is right. Assuredly, even if you had to start from scratch you'd be better off not ignoring the prompts that (if) God puts on your conscience regarding dicey justification of the issues i am raising (ie justifiable in your mind so long as you don't think about it for too long) or any other issues that ( or if/when) God raises with you.
Regards.
Each of these labels, while never as precise as some people may want, is a useful indication of the book's content and slant. "Publisher" is going to do a good job of telling you 'what denomination/perspective will find this acceptable,' and when the publisher is too broad or unknown, you still have the author's name you can look up.
Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users
do Protestant users get to advertise Logos as Protestant like Catholics get to do for Verbum?
THE PROBLEM:
People in this thread continually and
on purpose are trying to down play this - changing the subject to "but their are libraries for other denominations"
The ORIGINAL Logos Model IS Non-denominational.
IE all denominations are treated the
same. Verbum breaks this model.
Im not arguing that there should be no
catholic versions of base packages.
I am arguing:
1. only catholics get to create their
own versions of base packages
2. only catholics get to rebrand logos
to Verbum . (and advertise it as "logos for Catholics")
THE SOLUTION (SUGGESTIONS)
Solution Proposal 1:
Solution Proposal 2:
Yes, please put warning labels on all Calvinist books, because as an Armenian, I just can't handle any theology that differs from my own.
LOL
Hi Andrew,
you response might be better aimed at my last post in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65465/458250.aspx#458250 which explains my goal as such and shows your post as not applicable ( and your post was not even applicable to the warning label reasons at the start if this Thread either btw. ).
Research involves progressively expanding into new areas in an orderly fashion.
Learning involves progressively expanding into new areas in an orderly fashion.
Expanding into new topics, and mastering the knowledge of a topic that they remain a babe therein, and employing new methods to research a topic like progressively comparing what other denominations think, learning to be impartial to learning a topic ( which is maturity by experience of judging a case and coming to a conclusion based on the evidence alone and having the ability to reduce the case down to the facts to get that conclusion.) Not to mention the techniques of reasoning out a case that get better with time and experience that learning a topic in an impartial manner brings.) However Research should be orderly, and on topics that God either puts on the heart immediately, and those topics which God puts on our heart through systematic reading of the Bible. and the depth a progressively growing Christian learns should be the amount that he is able to learn, regardless of if he has to be in a state of not having the answer fully and maturely answered. God will prompt the Christian when more searching is needed, and perhaps some questions will only be answered after reading the whole bible through two or three times. ( you aren't mature, and you haven't mastered a topic until you undertake research. ) And the only thing a pastor, or church or the like can do is guide the child to be as mature as they can. They are not there to say "they dont need maturity", and they are not there to deny the Christian of food for the topic God has placed on them to learn about, and you cant scare people away by saying " but it might be dangerous if you learn about that topic ". No we all hit puberty, and we all mature by fumbling childish life, with guides to best direct us - and by Gods grace we slowly learn by our guides, their proposed techniques to maturing (not techniques to staying in a diaper, nor how to continue sucking the breast for life). Each person is responsible to mature as fully as is possible to stand on their own two feet of maturity in the faith. Elders are Guides allow us to progressively expand into maturity by equipping us to learn a topic in an orderly fashion by systematic, helpful, and progressive learning ( which includes allowing comparisons to be made between denominations, and finding out why).
New Christians desire the sincere milk of the word so that they might grow thereby. (the scriptures is a primary source for new Christians)
they progressively get to a stage they can handle the meat of the word.
during both of these stages the 'aids' change to meet the level of research that the Christian is at.
at any stage a Christian might want to compare what the bible says to what my denominations materials say, to what others say depending on the question that is on the mind of the believer.
Recommending rounding down the works to ones of a denomination to appease a gentle mind for a new Christian who is apt to research and equiping them to discern that comparisons can be made based on denomination of any one topic surely doesn't deserve being mocked?
I am persuaded that it is a systematic and orderly approach.
Much of this thread could have been avoided if it had been labeled differently. If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request" I believe most users would agree that there is value in reading beyond one's denomination (I realize that labeling creates it's own challenges with understandings that change over time and individuals may not align 100% with the denominational badge they wear, if any). I now believe that Luigi has explained that he is systematic in his approach to secondary literature.
The word "Warning" is what forced some into a defensive posture and has caused (some intended and some unintentional) harsh accusations of others within the broad spectrum of Logos users. Nobody wants to think of their beliefs as deserving of a "warning", but fewer would object to their belief system being tagged or identified.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
Much of this thread could have been avoided if it had been labeled differently. If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request" I believe most users would agree that there is value in reading beyond one's denomination (I realize that labeling creates it's own challenges with understandings that change over time and individuals may not align 100% with the denominational badge they wear, if any). I now believe that Luigi has explained that he is systematic in his approach to secondary literature.
The word "Warning" is what forced some into a defensive posture and has caused (some intended and some unintentional) harsh accusations of others within the broad spectrum of Logos users. Nobody wants to think of their beliefs as deserving of a "warning", but fewer would object to their belief system being tagged or identified.
I agree, that would have been a whole lot better and a lot less threatening to a lot of people.
Which Christians? Don't you know what you disagree with?
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Which Christians? Don't you know what you disagree with?
I used to not be a Christian. I used to be agnostic. I used to be into scientism, putting faith into scientific theories instead of the Gospel.
That does not mean that I have thrown science out of the window, but I have placed my faith in Christ and in his Word, the Bible.
I must admit I sometimes miss these threads, they can be interesting.
I don’t know why your post disappeared – whether it was moderated or the result of a server glitch. That sort of thing is out of my purview.
But from time to time we get people suggesting that we slap warning labels on this or that resource to protect the unwary from whatever perils lie within. There are all sorts of reasons why we shouldn’t comply with these requests. To name a few:
For starters, it is insulting to our customers. Our customers are responsible adults (brilliant and good looking, too!) who are fully capable of reading a product description and deciding if it interests them for whatever reason. Is anyone really going to buy the Vatican II documents without knowing (or learning from the product description) that they are Catholic documents and (warning!) may contain Catholic doctrine? Are any of those customers ambivalent about why they are buying that product, whether to investigate their own faith or learn about the faith of others or for apologetic reasons? Have you ever met a 'new Christian' who ran out and bought the Vatican II documents? Even a Catholic one? It seems this desire to protect the unwary imagines a type of customer that doesn’t really exist.
We get all sorts of requests for documents completely outside any definition of Christian orthodoxy. I for one would really like a decent edition of the Hadith. But publishers have a reasonable expectation that their babies aren’t going to be disparaged by us in our marketing materials. So we can’t really go around slapping heresy labels on things that some might find offensive – that guarantees that we won’t be able to serve the people who want or need to interact with that literature. A few years back I had some interesting conversations with Mormon missionaries, and I would have loved to have their literature on my machine in a high quality edition with all the cross-references linked up and so on – and we get requests for this all the time. But that’s not going to happen if we think our more mainstream customers are so brittle that we can’t publish materials like this without commentary for fear of some sort of back-lash.
I hate to use the ‘e’ word, but we see our role as empowering our customers to work through the Bible for themselves. We don’t think it is our job to play theological police, and I don’t think you want us trying. After all, it is highly unlikely that our new Committee for Theological Purity would match your particular set of convictions like a glove.
And I’ll stop with this point: we want to meet the needs of everyone who is wants to study the Bible, regardless of their faith tradition (if any). This means we want to sell books to Catholics. Indeed, it is such a growing market for us that we’ve made separate base collections just for them (the Verbum product line) and have a team working full time to make sure we’re addressing Catholic needs. It would be very self-defeating for us to put disparaging labels on everything Catholic right as we’re starting to make headway in that market. You might disagree with this goal, but everyone benefits from a larger customer base: there’s a lot of work we could never afford to do if we only served a very narrow audience.
In the interest of fairness wouldn't you need to label every resource (warning, reformed, evangelical, dispensational, liberal, Jewish theology, etc included). I think it was M.J. who pointed out that if Logos didn't include resources that were not acceptable to some Christians we would be left with only one or two books of the bible and nothing else. While I don't agree with everything in my library I've found almost everything to be useful (Even when I strongly disagree with an author's argument I often find their research on a subject useful)
I would agree with this and with Vincent's comment preceding. It would be nonsensical to institute a Protestant Index of Prohibited Books after the Catholic Church, if I am not mistaken, has retired that. If you really feel the need to include some warning, write a [respectful] review of the work since Logos has introduced the ability for customers to do such.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן