John 8 - The Woman Caught In Adultery
In John 8:1-11 we find the story of the woman caught in adultery. I have found some statementments indicating that this may have been Mary Magdalene. Can anyone refer me to any Logos materials that might shed some light on this. Do you have any suggestions for studying this passage or for studying Mary Magdalene?
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Michael Kinch said:
In John 8:1-11 we find the story of the woman caught in adultery. I have found some statementments indicating that this may have been Mary Magdalene. Can anyone refer me to any Logos materials that might shed some light on this. Do you have any suggestions for studying this passage or for studying Mary Magdalene?
Luke 8.2 /cf Mark 16.9
Hope this helps..
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The identification is questionable but certainly part of the folk interpretation. There is a bit on it in Mary Magdalen: Myth and Metaphor by Susan Haskins. There are competing proof/disproof bible studies on the web.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
The identification is questionable but certainly part of the folk interpretation. There is a bit on it in Mary Magdalen: Myth and Metaphor by Susan Haskins. There are competing proof/disproof bible studies on the web.
[[Happy 10000 just a tad early]
One thing is that many of the people in the NT writings may have been still alive so their names may have been keep silent so the powers that be would not track them down. [maybe] also that story may not have been written by John. On the other hand some say that it might have been the first story about Jesus ever written. [don't know how long it will take me to find the references if any one asks me to prove that] I THINK that several of the stories of the different Marys and that one were of Magdalen. But I am not ready to preach it and have no proof.
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One of the problems in early Palestine, is that mothers named all their daughters 'Mariam'. (Actually an unusually high percentage for some reason.) That's why 'Mary' is so closely associated with doing bad things (and even ending up in the 'Jesus Tomb').
A good summary was in Answer.com. I didn't know she'd been cleared and even complemented:
'The New Testament never describes Mary Magdalene as an adulterer or a harlot. That (undeserved) reputation was the result of a sermon in 591AD, delivered by Pope Gregory the Great. Gregory intentionally mixed her up with the unnamed "sinful" woman who entered Jesus’ presence as He dined with a Pharisee (an event which occurred before Mary is introduced, in the Gospel of Luke. But even in the case of that sinful woman, there is no evidence in any Gospels that her sins were those of the flesh - in the first century, a woman could be considered "sinful" for talking to men other than her husband or going to the marketplace alone). Yet, they are clearly different women, and Gregory created the prostitute persona from thin air. In 1969, the Vatican quietly but officially cleared Mary Magdalene of the accusation of prostitution. In 1988, in an official church document, Pope John Paul II noted that during early Christianity's "most arduous test of faith and fidelity" (the Crucifixion), Mary Magdalene "proved stronger than the Apostles.'
The 'intentionally' above is arguable due to the latin word used. And sooooo .... illustrating the need for a good Latin resource in Logos!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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A good principle of biblical interpretation was once laid out by the Classical scholar ER Dodds. He said: "What does not exist in the text, does not exist."
rari
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Room4more said:rari said:
A good principle of biblical interpretation was once laid out by the Classical scholar ER Dodds. He said: "What does not exist in the text, does not exist."
rari
Generally, that is a good rule, but one might add "or CLEARLY deducible from the text."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Generally, that is a good rule, but one might add "or CLEARLY deducible from the text."
That doesn't roll off the tongue quite so nicely.
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rari said:
A good principle of biblical interpretation was once laid out by the Classical scholar ER Dodds. He said: "What does not exist in the text, does not exist."
Which might bring up the controversey about whether this passage was part of the Gospel John wrote or not, given it apparently did not exist in the earliest available manuscripts ....
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There's no controversy. It's clearly right there in the KJV. Most scholars today believe early manuscript copyists removed it from the KJV. Besides, how could Mary Magdalene be the adultress, if it wasn't in the KJV?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David J. Wilson said:rari said:
A good principle of biblical interpretation was once laid out by the Classical scholar ER Dodds. He said: "What does not exist in the text, does not exist."
Which might bring up the controversey about whether this passage was part of the Gospel John wrote or not, given it apparently did not exist in the earliest available manuscripts ....
Not only is the passage missing from the earliest mss, it was inserted in other locations as well which would appear to indicate that it was imported from elsewhere. I suspect that it was part of the no longer extant Gospel of the Hebrews.
DMB said:There's no controversy. It's clearly right there in the KJV. Most scholars today believe early manuscript copyists removed it from the KJV. Besides, how could Mary Magdalene be the adultress, if it wasn't in the KJV?
[:D] Need help removing your tongue from your cheek?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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DMB said:
There's no controversy. It's clearly right there in the KJV. Most scholars today believe early manuscript copyists removed it from the KJV. Besides, how could Mary Magdalene be the adultress, if it wasn't in the KJV?
Are we talking the original authorized (by KJ) version of the KJV or a more recent colonial imitation ?
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Ok, this is getting bad. Real bad. 'Colonial imitation'?? I suppose like 'tea'?
It seems we're going to have to role in the incontrovertable proof. Does not the Bohairic include the account? Did they not live in the Egyptian desert (the universal basis for determining 'original')? And were not the users of the Sahidic later demonstrated to be using the far later Sinaiticus?
Ok, back my tea.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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okay, okay ... let's not get contentious. I really didn't mean to do anything beyond explain why my suggestion was not a Bible commentary. The tradition of trying to sort out who is who when unnamed or ambiguously named probably dates to the first public reading of the text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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George Somsel said:
I disagree with Dodds for the the reason George gives...and will up it further:
Failing to make logically supported deductions results in bad...even failed...interpretation.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
I disagree with Dodds for the the reason
Okay, guys, give Dodds a break - he didn't say ignore everything deduced from what is in the text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks everyone for your comments.
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DMB said:
Does not the Bohairic include the account? Did they not live in the Egyptian desert (the universal basis for determining 'original')?
Not in the desert, but in the delta.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Yes ... I got to thinking about that later. Elephantine ... Elephantine.
But the adulteress is interesting relative to 'dating' the Bohairic, since if you compare it to the Sahidic and then the Old Syriac, the Boharic is busily tracking NA27 (probably visa versa but who knows). Maybe the committee worked in the delta. Or at least flew through Atlanta.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Yes ... I got to thinking about that later. Elephantine ... Elephantine.
But the adulteress is interesting relative to 'dating' the Bohairic, since if you compare it to the Sahidic and then the Old Syriac, the Boharic is busily tracking NA27 (probably visa versa but who knows). Maybe the committee worked in the delta. Or at least flew through Atlanta.
No, you've got the wrong end of the stick. Elephantine is in Upper Egypt (south) while the delta is in Lower Egypt (north). I know it's counter-intuitive, but that is the way it is designated.
I hope you have a good oral surgeon on call. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I just can't get away with anything, can I? For someone who's 39, you seem to know more than your age suggests. Maybe a monastry in the desert? Writing on the backs of old manuscripts? [B]
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Though there are many lessons that can be gleaned from it, that story is not found in the oldest manuscript, so I wouldn't really worry about it. Why would I worry about the woman's identity? Or why would I worry about what did Jesus write on the ground? Nobody knows. The only time I've ever taught on that passage is to dismantle the abused phrase "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Many have used that as a blanket for sin and say that nobody has the right to say anything to someone else about their sins unless he himself is without sin which totally contradicts what the Bible teaches on telling others about their faults (Matt. 18:15-20, John 7:24, James 5:19-20, 1 Cor. 5; etc.).
But anyway, if you're looking for practical lessons on the text, here's a good article on it: The Current Perversion of John 8:1-11
Blessings!
DAL
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DAL said:
is not found in the oldest manuscript, so I wouldn't really worry about it.
Maybe we should WORRY!
Search for |book NEAR burning| in |Textual Criticism Collection| ZERO HITS
Search |crusades| in |Textual Criticism Collection| ONE HIT
And that was about a book taken as booty during
There is NOTHING in the books that I have on Textual Criticism that cover the history of Book Burning and the Burning of Byzantine during the Crusades.
If there were any second or third century texts of the Byzantine type is it not most likely that they would they have been kept in Byzantine? What happened to Byzantine during the Crusades? It was sacked and burned. What happens to books that are burned? They are not longer to be found. What is THE MAJOR ASSUMPTION of Textual Criticism? Textual Criticism ASSUMES that all versions have the same chances of being found. Is that assumption true? That assumption is NOT true. And thus there is a BIG hole in the core theory of Textual Criticism.
The OLDEST Manuscripts are all of the Alexandrian type because Alexandra is a DRY place. And Byzantine is a wet place. Once more the theory falls.
Did find this on Climate:
""Is the accident of circumstance—that papyrus survives almost exclusively in the hot climate and dry sands of Egypt—to dominate and determine how we ultimately write our textual history?"" from: Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism, 119
Would someone please point out a Textual Criticism resource, that is in Logos, that does deep scholarship on the effect of Book Burning, the Crusades and Climate on the availability of ancient manuscripts.
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David Ames said:DAL said:
is not found in the oldest manuscript, so I wouldn't really worry about it.
Maybe we should WORRY! … The OLDEST Manuscripts are all of the Alexandrian type because Alexandra is a DRY place. And Byzantine is a wet place. Once more the theory falls.
Not so fast, Gunga Din. There was a ms containing, among other works, the Didache discovered in 1873 by the metropolitan Bryennios in Constantinople which was finished June 11, 1056 which still survives in reasonably good condition. It is not the case that that the mss simply rotted away due to humidity.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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in the Jerusalem Monastery of the Most Holy Sepulcher discovered in 1873 [That covers climate now what about the other two?]
[[I have the Edward D. Andrews Collection (8 vols.) on order - ships 2/25]]
I did ask if: Would someone please point out a Textual Criticism resource, that is in Logos, that does deep scholarship on the effect of Book Burning, the Crusades and Climate on the availability of ancient manuscripts. [[When do we get to bid on Yours??]] [[And thanks, as always, for keeping me on my toes]]
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David, not to bear bad tales from the land of Egypt, but Alexandria's not a good location for arguing humidity. George was busily catching these mice yesterday (me).
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.You bring up the Crusades, etc. Which author made that argument?
Most majority text arguments I've seen point to the change in greek writing as well as the writing materials for the sudden disappears in early copies of the KJV. (I'm a Byz-girl myself, so I'm over in Antioch).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
David, not to bear bad tales from the land of Egypt, but Alexandria's not a good location for arguing humidity. George was busily catching these mice yesterday (me).
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.You bring up the Crusades, etc. Which author made that argument?
Most majority text arguments I've seen point to the change in greek writing as well as the writing materials for the sudden disappears in early copies of the KJV. (I'm a Byz-girl myself, so I'm over in Antioch).
Are you sure you weren't looking at the tables for Alexandria VA? [;)] [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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DMB said:
You bring up the Crusades, etc. Which author made that argument?
Most majority text arguments I've seen point to the change in greek writing as well as the writing materials for the sudden disappears in early copies of the KJV. (I'm a Byz-girl myself, so I'm over in Antioch).
No author, other then me [:D], has discussed the effect of the Crusades on Textual Criticism. [[what first and second century MS did they burn?]] And I think that is a BIG hole in their arguments. THEY assume that all forms can be found all the way back to the original copies of the originals. But there were book burnings and other mishaps. And their books, that I have seen, do not cover the mishaps. I am just asking if THEY have covered or totally ignored things that might up set their ideas.
Or if I need better text books??
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Ames said:
Textual Criticism ASSUMES that all versions have the same chances of being found.
Really? That is odd because it is so unlikely to be true. It could only be a simplifying assumption to make the data manageable. How many ancient manuscripts do we have from the Mar Thoma church in India? [Trick question - use of banana leaves as a writing surface has seriously limited the number of old manuscripts in a bug infested environment.]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ ... you lost me. In the quote from David, he opines that 'Texual Criticism' (whoever that is) makes an argument that assumes that all versions (of mss) have an equal likelihood of discovery (which of course assumes there's known undiscovered mss).
You duplicate his argument (but in the reverse) using the banana leaf manuscripts that don't exist as well.
Are you playing logical tricks on us? (I'm sure George is watching.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Logos has a book--The New testament in the Original Greek Byzantine Textform by Maurice Robinson and William G. Pierpoint. In the preface they briefly write about the Pericope Adulterae passage (1 page). Also, in the appendix over 50 pages is devoted to "The Case for Byzantine Priority"
In (Spring or fall) 2014 Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary is holding a Conference specifically dealing with this passage.
Dr. David Black--Dr. M.O. Owens, Jr. Chair of New Testament Studies
Professor of New Testament and Greek
Said: Yesterday I met with Maurice Robinson to finalize our plans for next year's PA (Pericope Adulterae) Conference. Official invitations will be sent out shortly to the participants. As soon as the speaker schedule is finalized, I will announce it here.Dr. Robinson made a trip to Germany to collate the existing manuscripts in order to prepare for this conference. If you are in the North Carolina area let me encourage you to come. Maybe there will be speakers there who can address the issues mentioned above by David.
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Keith Jones said:
In (Spring or fall) 2014 Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary is holding a Conference specifically dealing with this passage.
Late this year or early next if you can find out how to get their summary reports please post in THIS thread [we all have this one marked so that it shows up in our copy of "Your Discussions"
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David Ames said:
Offhand, no. I also need better textbooks. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:
How many ancient manuscripts do we have from the Mar Thoma church in India?
Probably only a few thousand left and require a good deal of expertise to translate....
http://www.srite.de/index?id=2&cikk=90 and http://marthoma.in/mar-thoma-theological-seminary... and while there are significant rumours of rivalry between John and Thoma, given the distance between them after Thoma headed east, it is unlikely that they felt much need to keep in a heated debate...
BUT you could have a point: it might be that followers of Thoma subsequently headed west and inserted the story about "that woman" into later manuscripts of John....
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