Challenge to speaker label in James 4:5
Reading James 4:5, which is an extremely difficult passage to translate, I notice that the L5 speaker label team put a speaker label here that points us to the Pentateuch. Unfortunately, I cannot find any reference in the Pentateuch to this quote (nor can anyone else). It's not a quote! (cf. als the FSB on this passage!)
There is a theory that this points perhaps to Gen 8:21, or possibly (given one's translation of this passage) Ex. 20:5, par. Deut.5:9. One could also consider Deut 32:10-11 (LXX - the only time where by way of metaphor God has epipotheo for His people, and in a context of being separate from the world). But in no case is this anything approaching a quote or even a paraphrase - this a summary of some Scriptural teaching at best.
I would like to recommend that the speaker icon here be reexamined and eliminated from this passage. Alternatively, if it is decided to leave it in, an explanation should be given, and potential references provided in the FSB.
Thanks for considering this.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Comments
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+1
I agree that it is better to be more reserved when the speaker isn't clear.
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alabama24 said:
I agree that it is better to be more reserved when the speaker isn't clear.
IMHO, there is no speaker at all! It's not a quote, nor a paraphrase.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
IMHO, there is no speaker at all!
I agree, but I was speaking about the "speaker" labels more generally.
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Beg to differ: read Pseudo-Jonathan. Right there plain as day. (Ok, not the MT.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I would prefer a solution that allowed the user to put notes on the speaker labels - and to "change" or mark them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Richard DeRuiter said:
IMHO, there is no speaker at all!
But the syntax identifies it as a quote whether or not we can identify the source, doesn't it? Linguistics requires the presence of the speaker icon doesn't it - so I hope by "more reserved" you mean something like speaker identification uncertain?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Richard DeRuiter said:
IMHO, there is no speaker at all!
But the syntax identifies it as a quote whether or not we can identify the source, doesn't it? Linguistics requires the presence of the speaker icon doesn't it - so I hope by "more reserved" you mean something like speaker identification uncertain?
The lack of "hoti" in the text ("hoti" is the common Greek marker to identify a quote), suggests that this is not necessarily a quotation. That is there is no syntactic quote identifier. One can assume a quote if one takes the phrase as the object of the Greek verb "lego," but that is not required syntactically, as far as I know. It would seem a natural reading of the text, but not a necessary one. Further, the total lack of ability to identify this as a quote or paraphrase of any extant text (canonical or otherwise), suggests something other than a quote (IMHO).
I think one could make the argument that James is the one summarizing a point made in several passages of Scripture, or he may be quoting from a source no longer available to us (in which case the identification with the Pentateuch would be wrong). So, yes, the 'more reserved' approach would be to identifiy the speaker as unknown. It is certainly questionable as to whether the Pentateuch is the source, since no single place in the Pentateuch comes close enough to make a strong tie here, IMHO. Further, the ties one might make depend on how one translates the most difficult passage in James - something Logos tends to avoid.My suggestion is to either remove this speaker icon, or explain its presence in the FSB. I'd be happy with either, provided the FSB explanation demonstrated the difficulties of precisely identifying the source of the quote.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I agree that it may be a summary or a paraphrase, not a direct quote. But I would still prefer to see the speaker icon present. I also agree that here as well as some other cases it would be better for Logos to indicate that the speaker is not unambiguously identified.
I really want the ability to "override" Logos tagging throughout the system when they show only the most common of several possibilities. I find I want to do this when Jewish and Christian commentators have distinctly different opinions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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All of which, in my opinion, speaks to the ill-advised notion of having a speaker label at all. If people are confused with any given text, they have a ready option...
RESEARCH AND STUDY THE ISSUE.
Those too lazy to examine these concerns get the lazy man's reward...and spoon-feeding them only keeps the diaper on indefinitely.
If the speaker is obvious, then no speaker tag is needed. If the speaker isn't obvious, no speaker tag alone can supply a satisfactory answer. Having a text critical note, such as NET tends to provide, is what is needed--not the pabulum of "speaker labels".
[+o(]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Those too lazy to examine these concerns get the lazy man's reward...and spoon-feeding them only keeps the diaper on indefinitely.
Exactly. That's why I turned off all the speaker labels in my setup.
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Jack Hairston said:David Paul said:
Those too lazy to examine these concerns get the lazy man's reward...and spoon-feeding them only keeps the diaper on indefinitely.
Exactly. That's why I turned off all the speaker labels in my setup.
That's fine. That's what the option is for.
But that's really beside the point, isn't it. If they are going to be there (which they are), and some will leave them on (which they will), then they shouldn't mislead, or be based on unsubstantiated assumptions. In cases where the speaker is unknown, that should be acknowledged. If Logos has a reason for their decision, they should substantiate it.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Of course this is the weekend, but I still suspect the problem is where the quote is coming from (internal to the canon, or external). The apostolic fathers quoted externally as well, with the commentaries scrambling for the source. But a quote was indeed made.
Maybe the Logos folks will note their thinking (or simply an error).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Jack Hairston said:
Exactly. That's why I turned off all the speaker labels in my setup.
How do you turn off the speaker labels?
Charlene
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DMB said:
Of course this is the weekend, but I still suspect the problem is where the quote is coming from (internal to the canon, or external). The apostolic fathers quoted externally as well, with the commentaries scrambling for the source. But a quote was indeed made.
Maybe the Logos folks will note their thinking (or simply an error).
Again, I think what you are describing is the purview of a thorough text critical note, a la NET, which can hash out the various issues and possibilities. No speaker tag can be definitive about that which is not. What is needed in this case is a good paragraph or two...and we just left the realm of "speaker labels" far, far behind.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I already have text critical notes a la NET. Quite a few. The cheerleader megaphones are much more attractive. Plus you can use the search 'Megaphones NEAR Elohim' and Logos5 finds them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I think James 4:5 may be an allusion to Numbers 11:29 where 2 men were prophesying and Joshua asked Moses to forbid them. REad it, the concept is there and James applies it to us in NT context. I hope this helps!
Blessings!
DAL
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Logos really needs to increase its assortment of emoticons...this deserves a clappy. [Y]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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