Englishman's Concordance Search in LXX

I want to do a search of the LXX that produces results similar to the Englishman's Concordance search in L3...what would be the best way to do that? I want to see all usages of the lemma in context and have a count of usages. Although Strong's gets a bad rap from some quarters, it gives a snapshot of very useful information--specifically, how the word is used in the AV and a count. Sometimes that info is wrong, but it nevertheless gives a baseline from which to pursue further inquiry. Is there something like that for the LXX? I would like a resource that gives a usage count of all lemmas in the LXX. I am guessing there is a Logos search methodology that would spit out that info, but I would prefer a textual resource that I can use as a reference and baseline, similar to Strong's.

Also, I posted this in L5 because that is what most people are using now, but I am still primarily in L3, so if you can provide a "conversion" explanation for L3, that would be great. Thanks.

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Graham Criddle

Hi David

what would be the best way to do that? I want to see all usages of the lemma in context and have a count of usages

Does the BWS give you what you want for a specific lemma?

I would like a resource that gives a usage count of all lemmas in the LXX. I am guessing there is a Logos search methodology that would spit out that info, but I would prefer a textual resource that I can use as a reference and baseline, similar to Strong's.

You could probably do this using a "Word List" generated against the whole LXX - but it would probably take some time to run.

I don't know of any resource that does what you are looking for - but others may be able to point to something

so if you can provide a "conversion" explanation for L3, that would be great.

Sorry, I don't use L3 so can't comment on that

Graham

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470153#Comment_470153

Thanks for your reply, Graham. If there are any other suggestions, I welcome them. And if there isn't a resource that gives LXX "census" data, i.e. word counts, English translations in Brenton, etc., then Logos should consider creating one and making it's reports available in hover pop-ups in their LXX resources. Essentially, it would provide basic search data "on the fly" without having to do a search. I would buy it for sure.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470159#Comment_470159

...and the frustration builds...

I realize I am nothing at all like an L5 expert. I am forced to spend 99% of my time in L3, because L5 (as I've said before of L4) is an idiot savant program--capable of amazing things, and unable to do the most fundamental. I don't get the benefit of much of what L5 does because I am required to spend most of my time in L3, thus I don't learn the ins-and-outs of the newer program. At present, I don't know if L5 can do what I want or not. On the issue I am studying, is it idiot or savant?

What I want is a simple list of the verses in a NASB report for all the LXX verses that contain the lemma διασπείρω. In L3, two clicks generates these reports for the HOT & GNT. I've been clicking for half an hour in L5 and still can't get close. If I am the idiot, please enlighten me. If this can't be done, L5 is pretty sorry.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470173#Comment_470173

...and the frustration builds...

I realize I am nothing at all like an L5 expert. I am forced to spend 99% of my time in L3, because L5 (as I've said before of L4) is an idiot savant program--capable of amazing things, and unable to do the most fundamental. I don't get the benefit of much of what L5 does because I am required to spend most of my time in L3, thus I don't learn the ins-and-outs of the newer program. At present, I don't know if L5 can do what I want or not. On the issue I am studying, is it idiot or savant?

What I want is a simple list of the verses in a NASB report for all the LXX verses that contain the lemma διασπείρω. In L3, two clicks generates these reports for the HOT & GNT. I've been clicking for half an hour in L5 and still can't get close. If I am the idiot, please enlighten me. If this can't be done, L5 is pretty sorry.

a few more than two clicks, but i get 3 for the NASB [took me all of about 30seconds]:

Hope this helps...

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470187#Comment_470187

another way:

Again, Hope this helps...

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470187#Comment_470187

...and the frustration builds...

I realize I am nothing at all like an L5 expert. I am forced to spend 99% of my time in L3, because L5 (as I've said before of L4) is an idiot savant program--capable of amazing things, and unable to do the most fundamental. I don't get the benefit of much of what L5 does because I am required to spend most of my time in L3, thus I don't learn the ins-and-outs of the newer program. At present, I don't know if L5 can do what I want or not. On the issue I am studying, is it idiot or savant?

What I want is a simple list of the verses in a NASB report for all the LXX verses that contain the lemma διασπείρω. In L3, two clicks generates these reports for the HOT & GNT. I've been clicking for half an hour in L5 and still can't get close. If I am the idiot, please enlighten me. If this can't be done, L5 is pretty sorry.

a few more than two clicks, but i get 3 for the NASB [took me all of about 30seconds]:

Hope this helps...

This does not (I will look at the other post in a minute), because this is a report on the NT and I want a report on LXX. I got this report in about 2 seconds in L3.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470189#Comment_470189

another way:

Again, Hope this helps...

I think I've replicated what you did (my screen looks the same)...but it doens't tell me anything useful. I still don't have a list in NASB of the verses in LXX that use the lemma for διασπείρω. [Unless I just don't see it.] I know for a fact that there are more usages that just Exo. 32:15.

I appreciate you trying, though. [:)]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470191#Comment_470191

thanks for clarity [sorta], but can you give me a screenshot, its been a few years since I ran L3, in the meantime how is this one:

edit:if memory serves me right 'HOT' was an esword module.....

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470173#Comment_470173

What I want is a simple list of the verses in a NASB report for all the LXX verses that contain the lemma διασπείρω.

Is this what you wanted?

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470194#Comment_470194

hmm I think I understand you now, this is the only other thing I have at the moment/ but it is a morph search so you will get more variance....

case closed.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I would like a resource that gives a usage count of all lemmas in the LXX.

Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition is included in => http://www.logos.com/product/28376/logos-5-minimal-crossgrade and many Logos 5 Base Packages: Bronze & higher along with Verbum Scripture Study & higher

+NT means also used in New Testament. +AF means also used in Apostolic Fathers.

I want to see all usages of the lemma in context and have a count of usages.

Morph Search Analysis can be grouped by Result and Resource for usage counts:

Noticed Morph Search Analysis for LXX H.B. Swete resources in Logos 5.1 Beta 1 have counts doubled (due to form having its own line for analysis).

Morph Search Analysis can also be grouped by Resource and Result. Likewise can convert Morph Search to a Bible Search for Grid display of context. Logos LXX has Hebrew lemma's, which can be used for sympathetic highlighting in English verses. The New Revised Standard Version has Greek Reverse Interlinear tagging for Deuterocanonical (Apocryphal) books while Old Testament books have Logos Hebrew/Aramaic Reverse Interlinear tagging.

Caveat: Analysis counts all tags for a word. Hovering mouse over Joyous in Tobit 5:10 shows a pop-up with four Greek lemmas in the New Revised Standard Version.

Morph Search Analysis includes English Lexical Definition (form) for LXX Greek-English Interlinear. Dreaming of Literal Translation column for use in Morph Search Analysis, which would enable an Englishman's Greek Concordance search of LXX Greek-English Interlinear resources.

Keep Smiling [:)]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470194#Comment_470194

thanks for clarity [sorta], but can you give me a screenshot, its been a few years since I ran L3, in the meantime how is this one:

edit:if memory serves me right 'HOT' was an esword module.....

HOT = Hebrew OT

I figured if I used it with GNT folks would understand what I meant. [:P]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470202#Comment_470202

Okay...

Dave, your post, and R4M, your last one, are what I am looking for. I have replicated what you guys did, except I am not getting the NASB column on mine. What must I do to add that? Thanks for your help.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470215#Comment_470215

I tried adding NASB95 to the Add Versions box, but it ignored it and now the box has disappeared. [:(]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470217#Comment_470217

Okay...I got it. [^o)] Thanks for the help.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470218#Comment_470218

I now know how to do this in L5, and I still think that compared to the simplicity of L3, this is akin to one of the labors of Hercules. There are more steps, more typing and/or cutting and pasting, far, far more clicking required, and the report itself is both ugly and not as easy to read. Very sad and disappointing.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470220#Comment_470220

I now know how to do this in L5, and I still think that compared to the simplicity of L3, this is akin to one of the labors of Hercules. There are more steps, more typing and/or cutting and pasting, far, far more clicking required, and the report itself is both ugly and not as easy to read. Very sad and disappointing.

not really you gave us the word[lemma] so you started somewhere. If you can give a brief it may be that we can reproduce it in a L5 setup...just a thought.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470223#Comment_470223

The Englishman's Concordance search using NASB in L3 is accomplished by hovering over a word, right clicking, and then left clicking the search. Done.

Granted, that doesn't work for a LXX search in L3, because there is no Englishman's Concordance for the LXX. But, for kicks, let's review what an EC search is like in L3 and compare that to L5...

Step 1: Decide you want to know about a word...

In Prov. 18, I decide I want to know about the word "examines" in verse 17. I simply hover the cursor over the word and this pops up...

This is a simulation using the Info window, because Snipping Tool can't capture mouse-overs, but you get the picture. Number of clicks so far? ZERO.

Time taken? .1 second.

I learn instantly what the word is in Hebrew, how its used in the KJV, how many occurrences of the lemma there are, and if I want to know more. I do, so I right click and find the Englishman's Concordance option is virtually under the cursor. I click it.

Number of clicks so far? Two. Time taken? I may have consumed a full second at this point. I get this...

I instantly have every usage of the lemma in aligned context. I know which verses it is found in, and if I hover over any of the verses on the left, the entire verse is displayed in a pop-up, no additional clicks required.

Total clicks? Still Two. Total time? Less than two seconds of active search effort. Literally.

My first observation is that L5 can't even remotely match L3 in simplicity and speed for this extremely useful type of search. L5 is a slouch in this department. The second observation, which I devoted a whole thread to months ago, is that L3 requires all of ZERO clicks to identify the underlying Hebrew or Greek word when reading in NASB. ZERO CLICKS!

I would be happy to have cause to leave L3 for something better, but right now, of the dozen most often used elements of my Bible study process, about half of those are things that L5 can't even do, and 3-4 of those are things L3 does better. Only 1-2 things are handled better in L5. That's a crying shame, in my opinion.

So, that's the process I use. If you can "reproduce it" in L5, I'd love to learn the procedure.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470239#Comment_470239

My first observation is that L5 can't even remotely match L3 in simplicity and speed for this extremely useful type of search. L5 is a slouch in this department.

L5 can reproduce but not as easily or quickly.

1. You need the interlinear panel of NASB95 and it needs to be showing Strong's numbers (mainly for 3. below).

Right click below "examines" (H2713) and select Strong's on the right, then click Search this resource on the left.

2. The search may initially be conducted on Verses, so click Aligned.

Now you are hampered by what i call a legacy bug, one that Logos refuses to change, but it gives doubled results for Strong's searches!

The second observation, which I devoted a whole thread to months ago, is that L3 requires all of ZERO clicks to identify the underlying Hebrew or Greek word when reading in NASB. ZERO CLICKS!

3. Make sure that Enhanced Strong's Lexicon is Prioritized #1 for Strong's numbers and then Hover (ask about this as it involves Advanced Prioritization).

NB. If you didn't want the hover info you could set up the Strong's search from a right click of the word "examines" in the bible text.

Anon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470239#Comment_470239

David this is as close as i can come to the above. two ways to do this 1) inline RI, or 2) RI ribbon

i see Dave already provided this.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470239#Comment_470239

Thanks David. So really what we are after is 'Information' whether it takes 2 clicks or 15 it's still all about the information.

we will use your Prov 18.17,:

I click the word and right click: in the pic is the multiple choices I have to chose from, each having it's own function:

Most of the time I will leave it on the lemma and go w/BWS, but every user has their own way:

There's quite a bit to do here because it offers much more than just one feature. Also you will note that it has an "all passages" link, I can choose Just the book of Proverbs, or another book or leave it as is, whichever I choose it will adjust the display accordingly/regardless which subfeature I am in. But since you were wanting to be more direct let's go back to the right click feature: I leave it on lemma and choose the 4th down "Search this resource":

I have what is the same in L3 but ooohhh some much more to do if I so desire. Where as in L3 you have to open another tab/window to get there; such as an analysis [which is far more advanced that L3]:

I may have to use more click's per se, but the information that is at the next click is more than L3 can compare to. It was a learning curve for me to go from L3 to L4 but it was worth the time invested. I am pretty sure that if you go to the wiki page and watch some of the videos from the L4 page[not much different than L5] it would help you immensely...

Hope this helps...

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470255#Comment_470255

Guys, I appreciate all of your replies. I will examine each in detail. Thanks again for your help. Your expertise is well appreciated. [Y]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470258#Comment_470258

All that preachin' about a BUG in some of the Bibles and Hooten is still showing the bug....go figure?

I have no prioritization and when I hover the strongs ## on the interlinear pane - well bust my boiler!! - thats what I get....go figure?

Dun't that beat all.

Okay I have to go....hope this helps you some David Paul.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470258#Comment_470258

Hi David

In addition to all the other responses thus far you might find the Information Panel is useful. In this example, I have clicked on the word "examine" in the verse under discussion:

(You can set the information panel to change as you hover over a word - as opposed to click - but I personally prefer the click option)

The Strong's information at the bottom was configured using the settings shown below:

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470198#Comment_470198

Stubborn as this may sound, is there a way to generate the NASB report below for a Greek lemma in the LXX in L3?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470265#Comment_470265

Stubborn as this may sound, is there a way to generate the NASB report below for a Greek lemma in the LXX in L3?

No. They don't have a common language (Hebrew) to align the Greek & English text. You could try to align via a Verse List.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470265#Comment_470265

Stubborn as this may sound, is there a way to generate the NASB report below for a Greek lemma in the LXX in L3?

would something like interest you:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/470239#Comment_470239

The second observation, which I devoted a whole thread to months ago, is that L3 requires all of ZERO clicks to identify the underlying Hebrew or Greek word when reading in NASB. ZERO CLICKS!

Logos 5 has a pop-up in NASB 95 Update that shows underlying lemma with morphology and Strongs #, which takes ZERO clicks.

My first observation is that L5 can't even remotely match L3 in simplicity and speed for this extremely useful type of search. L5 is a slouch in this department.

Concur Logos 5 takes more clicks. For grins, right clicked on examines 4 times:

Clicked Manuscript, then clicked Power Lookup
Clicked Lemma, then clicked My Bible Word Study, followed by clicking usage indicator to graph results
Clicked Lemma, then clicked Morph Search, followed by clicking Aligned
Clicked Root, then clicked Morph Search, followed by clicking Analysis and dragging Resource and Results for grouping

After 15 clicks and dragging several items, have mouse hovering over examines in Proverbs 18:17 for a screen shot:

Keep Smiling [:)]