I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

Damian McGrath said:

Bob was talking about parity of revenue for the base packages in the roll out of v4. Jeremiah was talking about general revenue for the company

Damian,

I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.

His quote:

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I think that Joe was pointing out the arrogance (or seeming arrogance) that Jeremiah displayed by questioning Bob's calculations about revenue, user base, etc...

I have to be honest...I must agree...it would seem that I'm going with the president of the company in question, who has the data to back up his statements on this one... [:D]

Damian McGrath said:

Robert Pavich said:

I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.

Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

[<:o)]

 

Jacob Hantla said:

I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.

Jacob,

That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. I tried old newsgroups but rarely got answers to my questions that helped me. I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. I tried to get people interested in it, but my inability to show how I used it always stood in the way.

I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3. I'm blown away by the power now and the potential later. I'm showing people real results from my research and study and they are getting excited. This is what, I believe, Bob and his team wanted to see happen: More people doing Bible study - yes more profit for Logos, but more profit so they can make an even better product. If L3 had reached its saturation point, then L4 was a necessary step for the company and a beneficial step for the Kingdom.

When I transitioned to Microsoft Word from Wordperfect 15 years ago, I kept both running for a few months. There were things I knew how to do in WP that I couldn't figure out in MS Word, but after a few months I removed WP from my computer. That's how I view L3 to L4.

I know the transition is hard and there are problems with some systems in terms of speed and with some users in terms of features, but overall, this new implementation process will yield a product that is much more "Designed by me" than any other I've seen. The features users use and want will be there. Makes me think of a democracy.

Chris

Chris Elford said:

Jacob Hantla said:

I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.

That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. ... I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. ...

That pretty much describes me, too. I was basically using L3 as a glorified concordance.

Chris Elford said:

I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3.

I've only been using it for about six weeks now, but I'd also concur. I know L4 better than I ever knew L3, and can do more with it. There's still more to learn, and I'm looking forward to more of the functionality being back so I can learn how to do things in a simpler way that I was never able to do before.

Thank you again for your response on forum. Your comments about paying the bills are fair of course and I imagined something like that to be the case.

Bob Pritchett said:

We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product.

 

This is the key thing isn't it. Even using L4 briefly it becomes very clear this is a different product. It is conceptually different. That's a great thing to do. The target audience of the new user, the potential to increase depth of study among many people, as a pastor it is a thrilling idea. I look to the day when the whole congregation are sitting with logos on their phones checking my greek exegesis is sound and when they begin the service uploading their prayerlists and answers to our church's logos central and then praying over them together as the service ends Well, there's a few upgrades to think about.

I pray your progress with L4 is blessed.

Bob Pritchett said:

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

I hope that last sentence doesn't remain true for long.

Bob Pritchett said:

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them.

I once used and highly recommended a program called Mindmanager. Then came an upgrade which caused a lot of heat in the forums [:D] They had taken (a very good) decision to make the program a business one, to expand the audience. I didn't realise it at the time, but the loss of some features was actually the beginning of a move to a different product aimed at different users. Over a couple of years this became much clearer and today I don't even have Mindmanager installed. Its a good piece of sw, just not for me. This is what I think may be happening with L4.

So i'd love to hear/read more about the concept being fleshed out with L4. Not trade secrets. Well, no, I'd be happy to hear those too but I don't think that will happen. [:)] So could you point me to blog/forum/ other thing where I could understand more?

Thank you again.

Robert Pavich said:

Just wait until your my age..arggg...I have to take my glasses off most of the time; I spend all day at work on a computer and can't even see it with my glasses on!

Yikes, I am there too.

Joel said:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere. Once Vista got a reputation for being unstable from a few users complaining about problems with it early on, that reputation just kept getting rehashed over and over and became stuck in people's minds. Vista has been fine for me, and I'm an ultra power user. Granted, I waited to upgrade until SP2 was available, and I bought it as a clean install on a brand new computer. That's the only way I ever upgrade to a new OS (except service releases).

Rosie Perera said:

Joel said:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

 

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.

I installed Vista on two older desktops.  Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both.  So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.

 

Joe Miller said:

Rosie Perera said:

Joel said:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

 

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.

I installed Vista on two older desktops.  Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both.  So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.

 

Did you check the system requirements before attempting to install Vista?  I think that even if they were marginal I would hesitate to attempt it.  I have Vista and have no problems whatsoever with it.

Todd Phillips said:

Frank Bristow said:

I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent.

I'm pretty sure she didn't know the release was imminent.  The sales person I talked to at Logos HQ on the day of release was surprised by it and made the comment that I knew more about the product than him.

She probably did know the release of L4 was imminent if she was a Logos HQ employee. I'm sure they were all told to keep mum about the new version until Nov 2 when it was released, just as all of us beta testers were. The company can't exactly stop selling the previous version just because a new one is due shortly. They need to keep a steady revenue stream coming in in order to pay for the development costs of the new version. They should have some sort of discounted upgrade cost for people who bought the previous version within the past 60 days or something, though. I'm not sure whether they do, but many companies do that kind of thing. It's only fair.

I'm surprised by the comments of the sales person you talked to on release day. Perhaps it was a brand new employee, hired in anticipation of the increased demand for sales that would occur once the new version hit the market. Perhaps they didn't do a very good job of training their new salespeople about the product if you knew more about it than he did.

Joe Miller said:

George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.

Extend my condolences to your wife when she makes the move.

George Somsel said:

Mark Barnes said:

I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

George, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't all beta testers who were told the release date, as I had previously implied, only ones who were verified bloggers committed to blogging about the release on the release date and who signed a non-disclosure agreement about it. And even we were only told that date a week ahead of time. They were being very careful not to let news leak out too early, so I can see why they might have kept their sales staff in the dark. It might have made it difficult for them to stay motivated about selling L3 all the way up to the end of its availability. No sense making it a lame duck before its time.

George Somsel said:

Mark Barnes said:

I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

I, like you George, am willing to give the benefit of the doubt because while, like all people, they have made mistakes, they have never demonstrated a penchant for outright deception.  Unfortunately, some do not take that approach and prefer to assume the worst of our brothers and sisters at Logos.   That is truly disheartening to me... 

 

I can confirm that same thing about Sales being "in the dark" until launch.  It was hard to believe that they really didn't know what the beta tester-bloggers knew.

Difficult question to answer Jacob since there is a lot I don't know. What leads me to think L4 conceptually different is not missing features by themselves, but the way L4 seems to work (as it stands) and the comments of developers on the forums. There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study. Coupled with comments re features like nested pop-ups, and with what seems to me to be a different approach to presenting/printing arrangements within the program, I am guessing, (it is only a guess) that logos will have to balance in favour of  a kind of "easy - level - user" need. (Not a bad thing ofcourse, one criticism of L3 is that it is complex to use well). I dont know this just as I did not realise it fully with MM at the time. Perhaps another factor in my thinking is that MM had a similar "upgrade/beta/new-product" release at the time with similar responses.

The final factor is "wont work for me". That of course depends more on me than Logos I am learning I am not a usual user. I seem to require printing and make my own use of the notes and verse lists and prayer-lists in ways others dont. Will L4 be as usable for those things? I simply dont know. Thats why I was looking for more on the concept behind L4.

 

ahh the pastor's dilema; I want the disciples of tomorrow to be better and smarter than me, just not while im still teaching them!

[:D]

Richard DeRuiter said:

As I've said in another thread, for me the adjustment from L3 to L4 was easier than the adjustment from L2 to L3. L3 had some very powerful features, but they were very difficult to use. And while L4 has some things missing that I wish were present (SRA's and PRA's), I don't miss them that much, and certainly not enough to make me use L3 (which I still have installed, BTW).

Surely you jest.  I didn't experience any significant problem transitioning from L2 to L3 while I'm still finding the morph search impossible.  Yes, L4 has some nice features not in L3, but until it takes care of notes and gets the morph search to operate correctly it isn't useful for more than a reader.

George Somsel said:

but until it takes care of notes and gets the morph search to operate correctly it isn't useful for more than a reader.

For those willing to use morph search the way logos intends (aka phonetic typing) I believe it does work (If someone who enters text using the built in method cannot get it to search please let me know so I can shut up :-) )

Richard DeRuiter said:

George Somsel said:

Surely you jest.

No I don't. I'm a Calvinist

I had problems with the loss of the Library browser from 1 & 2 and found the home page mystifyingly intrusive. It was much better to turn it off. I could get layouts to work the way I wanted and solved some of my other issues using SRA's and PRA's.

The CBV severely reduced my ability to import into WordPerfect via a macro, and required me to redo the way I copy/pasted Bible verses.

I'm a Calvinist too, and I do jest.  The image of the dour Calivnist is a myth.  The library browser?  I had mine fixed along the left side of my screen, but I can't say I missed it at all.  I definitely turned offf the home page mui pronto.  As for the switch to unicode, I was glad for that.  When I copy bible verses I do a <ctrl-c> and a <ctrl-v> so CPV isn't really of any use -- I think my method is every bit as simple.  I love workspaces and have many.  They save a lot of work opening up the appropriate resources (and notes) and arranging them.  I thought workspaces were a great idea.  In L4 you can't make a link to a resource within a note so what kind of notes are those?  To do a morph search you need to enter all the correct abbreviations, say an incantation over it and cross your fingers to get it to work.

JohnFidel said:

Try the search using the westminster morphology.. it may be a problem with the BHS/WIVU. Of course I could be wrong....

I don't know to whom you are responding, but I do use Westminster 4.2 morph.

Richard DeRuiter said:

Edward hyndman said:

There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study.

I'm not sure that's the case. Yes, L4 works differently than L3, and it's easier on the eye and more intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's less powerful. In fact, I'm finding it giving me more, and doing so more easily.

Yes, ditto here! I keep learning how to do stuff easily in L4 that I either never knew how to do before in L3 or kind of knew about but never bothered because it was too complicated. I have recently watched John Fidel's excellent video on searching, and I am off to the races!

Otto S. Carroll said:

Add my name to the list of those who have become more impressed with Logos 4 as I dig deeper into it. I was expecting a souped up version of L3. Now that I'm completely over the fact that it is not L3, I'm beginning to see that L4 is much better than L3. The Library feature alone  in L4 is so powerful that I no longer feel the need to go through every single resource I have, putting each of them in some sort of collection, in order to know all the different types or resources I have and the subject matter each covered - as I did in L3. So I will refrain from making any  "it's not like L3" judgments...so far I am discovering the L4 provides me with a lot more than L3 and I'm only begun to scratch the surface.

Otto,

That was so fun to read, I quoted it so I can read it again.  The fact that L4 is not L3 is an astute observation.  Welcome to reality.  [:)]