Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

CaseyScott said:

I'd like to just register my opinion

Am I the only one who noticed you have the same name as the mysterious here-to-fore unknown poster of the 35% off comment on Kevin's website? It is an interesting accelerant to douse on the already volatile crowd.

Jacob Hantla said:

I hate to admit it, but they know that their resources are so valuable that the majority will buy them no matter the discount.

I think you are in the minority Jacob. First, the whole Zondervan package is no where near the value of what we are accustomed to getting from Logos. Zondervan offers you 87 books for $2000 and Logos offers you about 1700 for the same price. "Who loves ya' Baby?" - Kojak

Zondervan is mistaken to think they are the only game in town. There really are scholarly alternatives (all available in Logos) to each of the Zondervan offerings. All of them are at much lower prices per title. We all know Business class on the airlines is nicer. But they only get there 10 feet ahead of Economy class passengers. How many will squander tight finances when the alternative titles will serve the purpose? Is that proper stewardship of GOD's money? Are we buying it for prideful reasons?

Matthew C Jones said:

Zondervan is mistaken to think they are the only game in town. There really are scholarly alternatives (all available in Logos) to each of the Zondervan offerings.

Richard DeRuiter said:

Actually, first time I saw it, I thought you were sucking on a bong.

Richard DeRuiter said:

Actually, first time I saw it, I thought you were sucking on a bong. You didn't look mad to me. Just mellow.

I agree, Richard. So much so that when I first saw this pic It drove me to his website to check further into what kind of a fellow this here maverick really is.

Getting back to the issue at hand...

I don't have any Z titles, though I have "wanted" EBC for some time.  But I also wanted a TON of Logos titles...and want is about as far as it was going to go.  I just don't have multiple thou$ands to drop on a handful of titles I may look at only occasionally.  Z's bundle for $2k?  Never going to happen here...and I think others are being chumps for buying in at that price.  But to each his own.  I've never had or used EBC and don't know what I'm missing.  It may just stay that way...

There are obvious pros associated with electronic sources...but significant cons too.  They may do more than print, but the reality is they also have a "wispiness" (leasing and intangibility being two things)  that can rear its head in disturbing and costly ways.  And the fact is that they are probably tremendously less expensive to "warehouse".  Bottom line: I think the marketing strategy for e-book titles makes infinitely more sense for both buyer AND seller by taking Logos's "package" approach.  Neither Logos nor Z are going to get multiple thousands from me by trying to squeeze the highest possible price out of a bunch of 0's & 1's.  But I just forked out many Ben's for the obscene deal that is Portfolio.  At that price-to-value point, I thought about it for about a second or two before I made the leap from Gold 3.

As I said in another post, if Logos wants to pick my pocket again, they should come out about a year from now with a significant package containing NO base package titles but including some tasty things few will buy individually (or even consider a "Make Your Own" package where the % discount increases as the $ amount increases).  Once I pay off Portfolio, I will take a gander at such a package if it is available, and suspect others would too.  Z should take a lesson.  Their "individual titles" approach is short sighted and ought to fail.  I realize some sycophants will pay $2k and would probably even go $3k just to get Z stuff on Logos.  That's bananas, but oh well.  They deserve each other.

IMO, Z should look at a package deal in the $1000-1200 range...I might bite then (but still have to pay off Portfolio first).  I bet that hundreds more folks would jump on that action than ever will at their current price point...Z groupies notwithstanding.  Z would almost certainly take in more cha-ching.  And if (and hopefully, when) they do, all those who paid full price should be ignored as they gripe and grouse about fairness.  Those who buy "new" pay for it.  If you take the bait the second it's tossed in the water, expect to get hooked.  They rest of us should cool our jets until Z comes around...and they WILL come around eventually...unless too many Zondervan whores "pull an Israel" and PAY for the privilege of being "kept" by Zondervan.

Daniel Lee said:

While I find some of your arguments helpful about print vs. electronic and timing of release, the above statement is neither Christian nor appropriate.  "Making a point" still doesn't justify talking that way.

Dan,

While David Paul's choice of metaphor's could be offensive to many his summation is dead-on.

The desire for instant gratification and pride consume the money, purity, strength and future of our youth. That is not much different than David's metaphor.

2 Kings 6:25 - And there was a great famine in Samaria, as they besieged it, until a donkey’s head was sold for eighty shekels of silver, and the fourth part of a kab of dove’s dung for five shekels of silver"

I doubt Zondervan will make an overall profit selling a handful of CDs for $2000 each. This over-priced donkey head will drop in price. The question is; Will you have boiled your own son to have it? We are not in a Bible resource famine here. There are alternatives.

Daniel Lee said:

Let's try not to exaggerate, but rather to express our concerns and desires civilly and with Christlike humility and grace.

Charging $2000 for duplicating one's library is the exageration. The grace of Jesus Christ is infinitely more valuable yet FREE. Most of us have already paid once (at least) for the Zondervan titles.

My comparison with the famine is to encourage those who feel the asking price is too high just find the alternatives and buy them. Or hold out until the free market drops the price. If you want to pay $2000, go ahead. I don't mind if you collect a love-offering and give them $3000 for it. But pretending what Zondervan is doing is Christlike doesn't change the fact is smells like greed to me.

Just be thankful Zondervan doesn't have a cure for cancer.

Daniel Lee said:

David Paul said:

...unless too many Zondervan whores "pull an Israel" and PAY for the privilege of being "kept" by Zondervan.

While I find some of your arguments helpful about print vs. electronic and timing of release, the above statement is neither Christian nor appropriate.  "Making a point" still doesn't justify talking that way.

In Christ,
Dan

 

I've been thinking about the "not Christian" charge for a few minutes...there are so many different ways I could reply to that, but I don't see any point in it.  I'm not interested in winning an argument.  But "Christian" or not...it is BIBLICAL.  The precept and principle may be indelicate (even though on the Bible's "scandalous" meter it barely moves the needle) but it is entirely appropriate.  The examples found in Scripture, all of them, are there to be applied when the shoe fits.  And in this case, we aren't talking about one of Cinderella's dainties...  Do I need to quote the scripture I'm drawing from?

David Paul said:

I've been thinking about the "not Christian" charge for a few
minutes...there are so many different ways I could reply to that, but I
don't see any point in it.  I'm not interested in winning an argument. 
But "Christian" or not...it is BIBLICAL.  The precept and principle may
be indelicate (even though on the Bible's "scandalous" meter it barely
moves the needle) but it is entirely appropriate.  The examples found
in Scripture, all of them, are there to be applied when the shoe fits. 
And in this case, we aren't talking about one of Cinderella's
dainties...  Do I need to quote the scripture I'm drawing from?

Most of the ones I can think of have to do with turning away from God.  Can you quote some that are applicable to purchasing overpriced books?

This kind of stuff is tiresome.  Daniel, you are probably a swell guy.  If we knew each other, we might be friends...who knows?  But your conception of "Christian" sounds a lot more like Mr. Rodgers than it does Moses, Elijah, or Y'shua.  Eph. 4:29 certifies my comment, it doesn't preclude it.  Here's why...

People are complaining about being roughed up and getting their lunch money taken from them by Zondervan.  They've paid once, twice, some even more...and now they are whining that they are expected to pay up once again.  Yet many of those same people ADMIT that they will likely dig deep and fork over more shekels for WHAT THEY ALREADY OWN (just that it's not in the exact "form" they would like it to be in).  One guy said in effect, "Yeah, I'll probably go ahead and pay through the nose, but I'm not going to like it!"  LOL, "a fool and his money" anyone?  A good thing Zondervan isn't listening and licking their chops...

So it seems to me that people feel like they NEED Zondervan (but they don't), thus appearing a lot like Israel, who felt like they needed the protection of Assyria and Babylon, the "land of merchants" (Ezek. 16:29).  They don't like the high cost, but they will pay up regardless, thus disdaining money (Ezek. 16:31).  Having the Bible AND the commentaries (Pardis) isn't enough...they want MORE FANCY commentaries...the Bible itself apparently just doesn't cut it (Ezek. 16:32).  They will do what it takes to get the baubles they desire, even to the point of paying for something that normally goes the other way...cost being no object (Ezek. 16:33-34).

That's very like what I see happening here.  I'm sorry you don't like the words God used to describe such behavior.  But it isn't smart to pay exorbitantly for something just because you don't think there is any other way, physically or spiritually.  In both cases, there ARE other ways...better ways, such as (1) doing without (2) until the price comes down.  And of course, it may never get to 2.  But back to the Bible...

Guess what happens with the passage of time?  Eventually, Israel GETS PAID...both of the nations become her spoil.  In other words, the "price" doesn't just drop, it completely inverts.  Is the analogy perfect?  Analogies rarely are...but it is certainly instructive...AND FITTING for being so.  People ought not kowtow to Zondervan.  THAT isn't fitting.  And it actually hurts others who want to take advantage of the product at a reasonable price, but may not get the chance as long as Z is focused on plucking the low-hanging, financially "immodest" cherries.

Now, with regard to the verses cited ( I not only saw all of these coming, but even expected who they came from):

*Eph. 5:11-12--11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose [or reprove] them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

Based on how dozens of others have described Z's treatment of them (did someone say "gouging"?), I would have to say what I'm doing is exposing both what they are trying to accomplish and what certain customers are enabling them to do.  We are talking about the wisdom or lack of it in financial dealings, not what prostitutes do with their bodies...and besides, this is all being done in the wide open air.

To be honest, I'm not altogether sure this verse really applies here at all.  More like it was tossed as a hand grenade.  With that said, by your standards, Daniel, we would probably start having to take a exacto knife to scripture to avoid giving any offense of "genteel" ears. (LOLOL...I almost typed "gentile"...that may have been appropriate!)

*Col. 4:6--6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Expect this verse to be used often by those who don't like what they are hearing, but prefer "smooth things".  Fact is, when YHWH says, "I will destroy you...", that is grace (or gracious speech), because it is designed to have its righteous effect.  You can almost bet your life, however, on the fact that none of those who hear the words will respond by saying, "Ah, perfectly seasoned to taste!"

*Eph. 4:29-32 (I saved the best for last)--29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Well, by some people's definition of "unwholesome" a great deal of the Bible needs to be removed.  Again, edification isn't something that makes people "feel" good and gives them "warm-n-fuzzies", but rather something that helps people be good and do good.  If someone's behavior is very similar to an unflattering example from the Bible, and someone else points that out to them, and the first person does something positive about their behavior as a result--that is grace.  The fact that the example given was unflattering in many respects IS the whole point.  Grieving the Spirit can just as well be failing to say what ought to be said, unflattering though it may be.  Besides that, I guess I need to point out that I'm not mad at anyone, and so I can't be guilty of any of the attitudes mentioned, and I not only don't intend malice/harm to anyone; rather I have expressly suggest a path that would be beneficial to all involved.

[What makes more sense: to sell one collection for $2000 or 4 @ $500?  Revenue wise, it's a wash.  The fact that 50-100 lbs. of paper and cardboard aren't exchanging hands each time means that the two options are neutral.  But in a room of 100 Logos users, how many will buy in at $2000?  Five?  But at $500, it would probably be 30-50...because it is a huge deal.  Also, because the user base skyrockets, and people start quoting from the resources, there is then even more incentive for others to have the resource to check (i.e. hotlink) the quotes.  Adjust those numbers a bit and Zondervan would make much more than they ever will at their current price point, and dozens or hundreds more individuals will make use of the material.  Will that happen if "people who are being incredibly unwise in their purchasing decisions" fork over $2000 a pop because they feel they "have to"?  Not on your life.]

Btw, there is a word for "people who are being incredible unwise in there purchasing decision"...

If someone is allowing themselves to be taken advantage of, they are a "chump"--look it up.  It sounds a lot like you're upset because you think I called someone "a name".  But I didn't mention anyone by name.  Words that describe things aren't "names" anyway...they're called adjectives, and they describe both things and behaviors.  If someone does something stupid, then it only makes sense to say so.  "But, (some will say) stupid is too harsh a word for a Christian to use!"  Really?  Hmmm...my version of the Bible talks about "stupid children" AND "stupid shepherds".  Are we to avoid these descriptions?  Really?  Why?  Isn't the next step then that we won't be able to even mention homosexuality, especially if we're saying its wrong?  That just wouldn't be "nice" now, would it?  I'm sure there is a more gentle way of phrasing it, isn't there?  Are we REALLY going to start soft-peddling sin because we're worried how it might "offend" someone?

And doesn't Scripture say, "Be not offended"?  Remember that, when I say that some of those stupid children and stupid shepherds are Logos customers!  Do I have anyone in mind?  No...I just know with utter confidence that it's true.  It's a statistical and spiritual certainty.  Is it you, Daniel?  Is it Richard?  Is it me?  Perhaps. Perhaps not.  If the shoe fits...  But whether it is me or isn't me, I'm never going to tell someone they shouldn't judge.  I don't think I'm being stupid, but I'm not going to get offended if someone says I am, I'm just going to defend my position as well as I know how.  But even if it does describe one of us, that doesn't mean we can't do something about it...and (as the truism goes) we can't do anything about it until we see how things truly are.  Let's just hope we're not too stupid to see if it is in fact true.

Scripture does say, "Do not offend the little ones", to be sure.  Pardon me for thinking that there aren't a whole lot of "little ones" prowling around on the Logos forums, Daniel.  But perhaps you feel like you're one?  If so, in that case, I apologize.

On another point, some folks, having already shelled out hundreds or even thousands of dollars, have pointed out that certain aspects of L4 are lacking...and been swiftly chided for their "negative attitude".  That isn't only absurd, it's a form of reverse Phariseeism...or maybe just plain ole' every day Phariseeism.  Labeling those with legitimate issues as malcontents or zealots.  No dissatisfaction allowed here!  Apparently, we should all be immensely grateful even if the platform that many of our lives revolves around (admittedly having numerous positive attributes) is suddenly jettisoning wholesale many crucial aspects of what we use to achieve our study ends.

According to these folks, our attitude should be: "I takes whats theys offuhs, n I tries t' likes it!"  Perhaps then that's just what Isael should have said when still in Egypt, hmmm...rather than complaining?

Some folks told Jeremiah to stop complaining.  He was a malcontent in their sight.  They chose to see the cup "half full".  But were they being "optimistic", or delusional?  Some folks are always optimistically touting "peace and safety" or "peace, peace"...'cause it's all about being positive, right, and after all, can't we all just get along?

Optimists will be the ones to say, "The silos are half full...", about the time everyone else will be realizing, "This really could be a famine."

There is a time to be optimistic, and there is a time to be pragmatic.  For some reason folks seem to clearly remember and recall "judge not" even though it says far more often, "judge".  Of course, it also says we are firmly expected to get our judgments right.  That means calling things as they are.  I didn't use the word "whore" because I felt like sparking an incident.  Frankly, there shouldn't be an incident.  It simply isn't that big a deal.  Still, you think I transgressed somehow  for using the word "whore", and that I will be judged for it.  Have you thought that you might be judged for not being willing or prepared to use that word?  I feel the context called for the pericope I had in mind, and the "verses themselves" dictated my word choice.  Check Strong's and see what it says about the word used repeatedly in those verses.

Would I say those things to people directly?  Yes, unquestionably I would, in certain contexts.  I might be more delicate if I perceived I was talking to a complete babe.  Possibly so...but I think, with adults, it is a far, far, far worse thing to avoid "uncomfortable" language and thus downplay the fact that something really bad is happening.  I might use a euphemism when speaking to someone who just lost a family member, but otherwise I speak of death as being "dead".  Simply using the word "whore" when describing the behavior that is whoredom (be it spiritual, literal, or figurative) is not inappropriate in the slightest, and it is not in any way, shape, or form what Paul was talking about.  No one is describing lurid details by any stretch of the imagination, which are those things "done in dark" which should not be spoken of...even though the Bible itself does use some pretty lurid language at times to discuss whoredom and other issues as well.  Often it is the English version that softens the language for our "refined gourmet palates".  A good thing?  You can probably guess what my feeling is on that regard.

"Christianity", as you call it, isn't about being "thoughtlessly nice".  That statement is a truth, but one not typically recognized.  Still, since that is what many millions of people think Chrisitianity is--obsessive niceness--it may be they have successfully co-opted the word "Christian" for their own purpose.  Thus the "quotes" around the word.  Christianity, if that word hasn't been polluted to useless effect, is instead fundamentally about "rightly dividing the word of truth" (something which nice-niks of course think they do...but do they?), and that is intelligent obedience to YHWH the Creator...plain, but seemingly not so simple.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not at all against refraining from inappropriate speech, I just believe that uncomfortable and inappropriate are not necessarily synonyms in this regard, and that, in fact, suggesting they are can be a much bigger problem than the use of indelicate words is.  Often indelicate words are exactly what is called for.  Scripture proves this time and time again.

His blessing to you, Daniel.

I completely agree that we all should be able to get along, especially if we are claiming to be in His Body.  Yet different people have different perspectives, and sometimes looking at a given issue from another's perspective may lead us to change our own.  And sometimes not.  Whatever the case, we are told to "judge all things" and do so without passing or casting "judgment" (essentially, attempting to determine a person's final destination).

Having no one specifically in mind...I will justs remind that Satan can quote scripture, as we all know.  Also, people of diametrically opposed views can both insist they follow sola scriptura.  Even so, in many cases where discussions or arguments prevail, oftentimes neither really abides by that "rule".  We often think we "know" things, and as I often hear from the pulpit (or tape or CD) , we insist that "we know that we know"!  Yet ignorance frequently prevails over truth in such proclamations.

I certainly agree that patience should prevail...and even so, it frequently seems that such patience gives the appearance of coddling evil.  It is a job for wisdom, to be sure.

Daniel Bender said:

I have Pradis on my Win 7 machine and it runs great after installing a patch that is on their site

Thanks for the information Daniel. I was not aware that there was a software update to Pradis 6. I have downloaded and installed update and application now works as expected.

Even though the EBC works well for me I will probably get the EBC in Logos format. If the pre-pub price is $130 then I feel that is the price for upgrading the delivery method and that I am not purchasing the resource again. If they were asking for full price ($400+) for the EBC all over again then I would not conside it at this time.

Having a IT background, as I said in earlier post, I understand applicaion and delivery applications upgrade costs. I do not expect something new and better for free. However once I have purchased the rights to the content then I expect that I will not be charged for the resource again from the same company. The arrangement between Zondervan and Logos should include a upgrade price for current licensed resources.

Again just my two cents.

Mick

It's been several months now since the initial Zondervan / Logos announcement.  Do we know when we'll likely a) see the Zondervan Logos resources in production, and b) hear about any potential discount for current Pradis users?

Thanks very much!

Peter

PeterLi said:

It's been several months now since the initial Zondervan / Logos announcement.  Do we know when we'll likely a) see the Zondervan Logos resources in production, and b) hear about any potential discount for current Pradis users?

I'm of the opinion that no answer IS an answer (albeit for me the wrong answer).

BillS said:

I'm of the opinion that no answer IS an answer (albeit for me the wrong answer).

Yep, Me too.

Z. has time to keep hyping their fluff products (GloWorm) and send out their daily e-mails. So I take it they either don't know how to market their scholarly titles or they don't care about the Logos user base. Either scenario is lamentable.