Butters said:

All I have to say about Pope Francis is:  In the short term, he is about as close to an unmitigated disaster as we can get;

Well first Pope I have really liked since John the XXIII, yes J23 is before my time, but JP I was too short to get much of an opinion and as charismatic as JP II was, he near reversal of most of V II was a disaster in my mind.

-dan

Dan Francis said:

Butters said:

All I have to say about Pope Francis is:  In the short term, he is about as close to an unmitigated disaster as we can get;

Well first Pope I have really liked since John the XXIII, yes J23 is before my time, but JP I was too short to get much of an opinion and as charismatic as JP II was, he near reversal of most of V II was a disaster in my mind.

-dan

If I understand you correctly, Dan, you're saying that JPII nearly reversed Vatican II?  Well, that's just not true - except for some superficial gestures, JP II was an essentially an apologist for Vatican II.  Incidentally, despite even more public gestures to the contrary, so was Pope Benedict.  

In my opinion, we are going in the wrong direction as a Church.

However, I must also acknowledge that the college of Cardinals were indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit; in part, because the choice of Pope Francis will lead inexorably, I think, to a renewal of traditional doctrine and liturgy.  

~Butters [:)]

William Gabriel said:

Butters said:

All I have to say about Pope Francis is:  In the short term, he is about as close to an unmitigated disaster as we can get; however, it should be admitted that we've been through worse and this too shall pass.  Think in centuries, not decades.

~Butters  

Pardon my ignorance on the subject (being protestant myself), but is a RC permitted to have this kind of opinion about the Pope? 

Simple answer to a complicated question:  yes. 

~Butters [:)]

MJ. Smith said:

Personally, I believe that most of this thread is outside Logos guidelines ... but there are currently threads that bother me even more which I would be obligated to call out before this thread ... but I don't want to bump such offensive threads ... dilemma, dilemma, dilemma ... if no one needs protection from personal attacks, is one obligated to step in?

I suppose the outer limits are found when the thread becomes a major distraction. 

~Butters [:)]

alabama24 said:

Butters –

I am utterly confused. As someone who has done nothing but to seek understanding in this thread from others who are of a different mind and practice from myself, I made a simple comment about how I have been impressed with the Pope. Why would you take offense at that?

I don't and didn't take ANY personal offense alabama24 - not even a smidgeon.

 I certainly did NOT mean to imply that.  And I'm sorry if that was what I conveyed (accidentally). 

However, it's true that I disagreed emphatically with your post - and so was only saying that I felt the need to respond somehow.  

And my general point was only that posts seem to be called out only if they are expressing certain kinds of opinions, and not others.

Peace.

~Butters [:)]    

George Somsel said:

Believe me, Butters is all sweetness and light compared to another Trad that I encountered on a different list.

Gosh, am I that bad?  Sorry.  [:$]

EDIT:  The Bad Trad in me can't resist: it's not the change from the Latin to the Vernacular that's the fundamental problem....lol.  See, I guess Trads are just incorrigibly argumentative.  Ugh.  Bred.  Into.  Me.  Very.  Bones.  

~Butters [:)]

alabama24 said:

Thanks for clarifying.

Butters hopes we can be friends. 

~Butters [:)]

Paul Golder said:

Thought of an interesting question.

What happens when most of the printing houses close, and Bible printing becomes an artisan occupation?

Would the fact of a printed Bible costing many times more than a tablet change the equation?

That is an interesting question indeed; I have often thought that we are going towards a world where printed books are rare, very high quality, and affordable only to the few.  

William Gabriel said:

Butters said:

Incidentally, papal infallibility is one of the most deeply misunderstood of the Church's teachings.  Not appropriate to elaborate upon here, I suppose...but there are plenty of places to read about it elsewhere.  I'd be glad to post up something if it's allowed.  

~Butters 

Yeah, I avoided that word--infallibility--on purpose. As you and MJ have indicated, there's some deeper stuff involved that we don't need to get into here. If you want to post a link to something, I'd be happy to peruse, but I don't want anyone killing themselves writing a dissertation. 

Maybe hints to resources or suggested resources would help educate us to this situation? 

David Taylor Jr said:

Logos is too advanced for most users.  They want a simple Bible with different translations and that is what YouVersion gives them.  The advanced Bible Study User (scholarship) use the Logos app or similar apps, or people who want to go deeper than just reading.

If that were true there would be tens of millions more people using the other software.

Oh wait...never mind [:$]

David Ames said:

William Gabriel said:

Butters said:

Incidentally, papal infallibility is one of the most deeply misunderstood of the Church's teachings.  Not appropriate to elaborate upon here, I suppose...but there are plenty of places to read about it elsewhere.  I'd be glad to post up something if it's allowed.  

~Butters 

Yeah, I avoided that word--infallibility--on purpose. As you and MJ have indicated, there's some deeper stuff involved that we don't need to get into here. If you want to post a link to something, I'd be happy to peruse, but I don't want anyone killing themselves writing a dissertation. 

Maybe hints to resources or suggested resources would help educate us to this situation? 

• Infallibility of the Church and Pope from the Ecclesiastical Dictionary
• The actual dogma of the infallibility from the Fundamentals of Catholic dogma
• Infallibility from New Dictionary of Theology
• Catechism of the Catholic Church: Glossary, 92 and 891 (Catechism can be found on the Vatican website for free if you don't have it in Logos)

Opposing view:

• The Papacy and Infallibility from A Contemporary Evangelical Perspective on Roman Catholicism

Outside Logos:

• The Catholic Encyclopaedia
• Catholic Answers tract (good tract, tries to clear up misconceptions)

In general, papal infallibility means that the pope is protected from error when he "proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals" (CCC 891). This does not mean that he is impeccable (incapable of sin) or inerrant (incapable of error).

Bill Coley said:

I get that some distractions cross the line (e,g, audio sources played sans hearing devices), but where is the line? What about the responsibility the "distracted" people to support the worship needs of those who allegedly "distract" them?

"Where is the line?"    I am glad you believe there is a line. Some would argue they have a right to eat French fries in worship service. Some parents may tune their iPad to Netflix for their children who are bored with the sermon. A cowboy may decide to use chewing tobacco. (I am in Oklahoma)

When I ride my power wheelchair to church those pesky pews that are fixed to the floor keep me from reaching a hymn book. I have to rely on the thoughtfulness of others to hand me a hymn book. Some people dance in their worship service. (King David danced before the Lord, albeit not in the temple.) Undoubtedly many would text message or even talk on their cell phones if they were not requested to abstain from it.

The "line" we should not cross is the conduct which unnecessarily disrupts the worship experience of the community. If I visit LifeChurch I am not compelled to take my iPad but I should expect others will have theirs. There will also be some with Starbucks cups. This conduct is to be expected in that environment. But if I visit a non-instrumental church I should not whip out my harmonica and play along in song service. 

I find most churches are very accommodating in welcoming people. Some go out of their way to entertain them. There is a line and when we start a question with "What's wrong with..." we probably already know the answer.

Super Tramp said:

Bill Coley said:

I get that some distractions cross the line (e,g, audio sources played sans hearing devices), but where is the line? What about the responsibility the "distracted" people to support the worship needs of those who allegedly "distract" them?

"Where is the line?"    I am glad you believe there is a line. Some would argue they have a right to eat French fries in worship service. Some parents may tune their iPad to Netflix for their children who are bored with the sermon. A cowboy may decide to use chewing tobacco. (I am in Oklahoma)

The line is where one ceases to participate in the communal activity.  The chewing tobacco may be acceptable if he can manage to not spit.  [;)]

Super Tramp said:

"Where is the line?"    I am glad you believe there is a line. Some would argue they have a right to eat French fries in worship service.   

French fries are almost OK.  Its is the gum that is over the line! [Am on the cleaning crew - gum takes forever to get out the the carpets!]

Paul Golder said:

Ha, ha !  [:D]  I know that's a photoshop (at least it had better be).

George Somsel said:

Ha, ha !    I know that's a photoshop (at least it had better be).

That is the one they are REQUIRED to eat French fries during service. [am glad I am not on the cleaning crew of that one]

Sleiman said:

Never been to such a service and this requires a paradigm shift for me to comprehend.

There are all types of people in the world. We sometimes think our way is the only acceptable way. It is like a preacher visiting a church in a small African village. The women folk showed up for church service topless. The preacher had shirts handed out to them before the next meeting, requesting they wear them. When they all showed up for the service they had dutifully wrapped their heads in the shirts.

I choose to attend a church where people dress to honour God. They respect their neighbours by participating in the service at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner. Nothing is done just because it can be done. Technology is our slave, not our master. Our "wow factor" is hearing the Word of the living God not seeing sparkly lights.

Others may worship God in blue jeans, with a coffee cup in one hand and the other raised in praise. I only request we respect the spiritual needs of the others around us in church. 

Denise said:

 

Note that the Eucharist could be observed in the absence of the bishop. An agape requires the bishop (for obvious reasons). This is why for centuries, Starbucks coffee was not allowed.)

Backwards

Paul Golder said:

I wonder if it would be acceptable for a barista to use a tablet while mixing coffee in church? Specifically for recipe reference.

Why not put a Mr Boston on his tablet and let him mix drinks as well if the church (?) is gong to branch out into other areas.

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Boston-Official-Bartenders-Party/dp/0446676888

[:(]

Paul Golder said:

George Somsel said:

Why not put a Mr Boston on his tablet and let him mix drinks as well if the church (?) is gong to branch out into other areas.

Maybe in a Reformed, or Anglican church, but here in the Bible belt where Evangelicalism is synonymous with temperance, I can't see it happening.

I was raised in the Mid-West so I am fully aware of the stance of churches in the region.  I can assure you that I said that with tongue firmly planted in my cheek.  I think the church should stick to being the Church.

Paul Golder said:

George Somsel said:

I can assure you that I said that with tongue firmly planted in my cheek.  

As was I.

George Somsel said:

I think the church should stick to being the Church.

Agreed. A house of prayer, not a den of...

Just out of curiosity, I'll ask a question open to response from anyone with first-hand knowledge.  Does the Catholic Church in South America attempt to cater to the "Good-time Charlies" of the region or do they maintain traditional standards?  It would seem that the Pope is quite popular there, and I suspect he isn't trying to entertain them.