Is everyone welcome here?

245

Comments

  • Paul Golder
    Paul Golder Member Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭

    Would you like a polishing cloth for your halo?  Big Smile

    Incorruptible, no tarnish or fading here [:D]

    "As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭

    You've already been challenged for an over-generalization of fundamentalists, so I won't repeat that.

    +1 [:#]

    If I may sum up the connotations of other posts in this thread succinctly; perhaps your perceived rejection is merely a reflection of your own rejection of others?

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    The way I see it there are two ways of handling theological threads.

    1) Totally ignore he thread without comment (Logos' desired response?)

    2)  If we do respond with a theological bias, prepare to read posts from those who hold alternative and contradictory perspectives. What makes us think we have a right to post a biased statement and in the name of tolerance silence all who disagree?

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • George Somsel
    George Somsel Member Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭

    Would you like a polishing cloth for your halo?  Big Smile

    Incorruptible, no tarnish or fading here Big Smile

    And I thought you were a real, live person.  [:D]

    george
    gfsomsel

    יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,591 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the angel's comment is correct. Absolutes don't work well in a mixed world of toleration. But a special ingredient called 'rationalizing' allows absolutes to exist among the tolerant.  My Mother rationalized a lot in order to tolerate the beings that accompanied her leaving the hospital.

    Jonathan's generalizing concerning the fundamentalists is spot-on. Their overly liberal comments requires that us literalists hide behind irony and mystical nothingness to avoid being heretic-ized. Ah, yes. The Teacher of Righteousness vs the smoothies. 

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    You've already been challenged for an over-generalization of fundamentalists, so I won't repeat that.

    +1 Zip it!

    If I may sum up the connotations of other posts in this thread succinctly; perhaps your perceived rejection is merely a reflection of your own rejection of others?

    That's not fair.

    As I made clear in one of my posts above, my objection was to unwelcoming, closed minded, pointless exchanges on threads that could otherwise be useful to more people. My mention of fundamentalism and conservatism was merely referring to what seemed to be the background to a few threads that I found unhelpful because of their closed minded antischolarly bent. I did write:

    [quote]

    I hope my comments will not be taken as criticism of any particular group of Christians. (I acknowledge that my mentions of fundamentalism and conservatism could be interpreted that way.) I sought only to criticise those who turn useful forum threads into unwelcoming and intolerant exchanges.

    All I am asking for is tolerance of other people's opinions when they differ from our own. Let's let everyone express their views about the books and software without any more discussion of theology than is necessary to achieve that. Hints of what each of us believe will inevitably be visible in what we write, but these forums are not the place to be correcting or dismissing other people's beliefs.

    Now I feel really welcome. [:(]

  • George Somsel
    George Somsel Member Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭

    Now I feel really welcome. Sad

                                                 

    george
    gfsomsel

    יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

  • Mike Childs
    Mike Childs Member Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭

    Jonathan,

    I certainly welcome you as a part of these forums.  There is no excuse for being rude.  Never.  And I have at times gone back and deleted a comment or two that upon reflection I felt was rude.

    These forums are not intended to be places for theological debate, but more about Logos Bible Software and how to use it.

    On the other hand, there are those who feel that anyone who disagrees with their point of view is "opinionated" and "close minded".  If one states a theological or Biblical position, then one should not feel slighted if others disagree.

    Actually, I am opinionated, and so are you, and so is everyone.  And my mind is closed about certain issues that I settled long ago - such as the deity of Jesus Christ and other core doctrines of the faith. 

    Strange, isn't it, that I more often find those of a progressive bent to be rude, opinionated, and close minded?  [;)]  Not always, but rudeness dwells on both sides of the theological divide.

    My mind is always open to consider other views, but I am not going to change my mind about the core of Christian faith. 

    Of course, people differ as to what that core of the faith is.  The main thing is that we never be rude to one another.  Nor should we insult one another if we happen to differ.  That has unfortunately happened, and some are more guilty of it than others.  If someone is frequently rude or arrogant, I tend to just ignore them.  One is certainly not going to change them.

    I always try to remember that God did not call me to correct everyone's theology.  When I realized that, it was a great relief!  Of course, I sometimes forget that, but I am trying to remember.

    Of course you are welcome here.


    "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

  • Bill Coley
    Bill Coley Member Posts: 214 ✭✭

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    The state of opinionation (try to find that one in your dictionary!) is not the exclusive province of any particular theological/political/socio-economic community. Opinions don't cause opinionation; people do.

    Intolerance is a natural by-product of opinionation. When I "know" I am right and therefore believe my opinions have priority over yours, I am naturally inclined to diminish, discredit, and perhaps ultimately disallow yours. 

    But let's be clear: Opinionation is an arrogance whose exclusive copyright lapsed into the public domain long ago.

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭

    You've already been challenged for an over-generalization of fundamentalists, so I won't repeat that.

    +1 Zip it!

    If I may sum up the connotations of other posts in this thread succinctly; perhaps your perceived rejection is merely a reflection of your own rejection of others?

    That's not fair.

    As I made clear in one of my posts above, my objection was to unwelcoming, closed minded, pointless exchanges on threads that could otherwise be useful to more people. My mention of fundamentalism and conservatism was merely referring to what seemed to be the background to a few threads that I found unhelpful because of their closed minded antischolarly bent. I did write:

    [quote]

    I hope my comments will not be taken as criticism of any particular group of Christians. (I acknowledge that my mentions of fundamentalism and conservatism could be interpreted that way.) I sought only to criticise those who turn useful forum threads into unwelcoming and intolerant exchanges.

    All I am asking for is tolerance of other people's opinions when they differ from our own. Let's let everyone express their views about the books and software without any more discussion of theology than is necessary to achieve that. Hints of what each of us believe will inevitably be visible in what we write, but these forums are not the place to be correcting or dismissing other people's beliefs.

    Now I feel really welcome. Sad

    Do you deny there is not a certain amount of irony in a post that condemns and rejects people you feel condemned and rejected by?

    [quote]All I am asking for is tolerance of other people's opinions when they differ from our own.

    As has been mentioned the forums are not a place to discuss our individual theology. Because its not opinions you dislike, its been the theology (once the loaded terms have been removed from your post).

    I am not rejecting you. You're welcome here as far as I am concerned. Just don't become "Butt hurt" as my cousin is fond of saying, over something someone says on an internet forum.

    In the end mostly all of us are still redeemed sinners. We won't be perfect this side of heaven. Despite OUR best efforts to the contrary.

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    The state of opinionation (try to find that one in your dictionary!) is not the exclusive province of any particular theological/political/socio-economic community. Opinions don't cause opinionation; people do.

    Intolerance is a natural by-product of opinionation. When I "know" I am right and therefore believe my opinions have priority over yours, I am naturally inclined to diminish, discredit, and perhaps ultimately disallow yours. 

    But let's be clear: Opinionation is an arrogance whose exclusive copyright lapsed into the public domain long ago.

    There have been a proliferation of posts just like this since this morning, in which there is a remarkable confusion, a lack of irony and self-awareness, and an almost gleeful, if unwitting, willingness to defy Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction.  

    I give up...lol. 

    ~Butters [:)] 

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Paul Golder
    Paul Golder Member Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭

    Butters said:

    ...willingness to defy Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction.

    Have you not read Orwell (or watched the current media)? [;)]

    "As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    Butters said:

    ...willingness to defy Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction.

    Have you not read Orwell (or watched the current media)? Wink

    I know, don't remind me....lol.  I don't have a television (and didn't grow up with one) and every time I am in an airport I am reminded of how utterly bereft of reasoning our public "conversations" are.  

    Cheers!

    ~Butters [:)]

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    Butters said:

    You're going to have to clarify that for me.  

    Let me put it this way: Suppose, just suppose that we are living in a day and age where tolerance and acceptance are desired and striven for above all. Would not the eventual denouement be the loss of that which is absolute?

    Well, the absolute doesn't depend upon our perceiving it, thank the Lord!  :)  So the absolute would still exist.  It is we who are dependent and contingent, and radically so.   

    However, you are correct that culturally, philosophically, and theologically, we would suffer more and more from our own delusions of grandeur brought on by our sinful nature; we would find ourselves increasingly smothered in a "cloud of unknowing;" and we would live increasingly in a kind of puzzling contradiction:  that we relativize the absolute; and absolutize the relative. 

    Cheers, 

    ~Butters [:)]

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Paul Golder
    Paul Golder Member Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭

    Butters said:

    ...that we relativize the absolute; and absolutize the relative. 

    Are you sure that you haven't been watching the news or politics lately? [;)]

    "As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

  • Bill Coley
    Bill Coley Member Posts: 214 ✭✭

    Butters said:

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    The state of opinionation (try to find that one in your dictionary!) is not the exclusive province of any particular theological/political/socio-economic community. Opinions don't cause opinionation; people do.

    Intolerance is a natural by-product of opinionation. When I "know" I am right and therefore believe my opinions have priority over yours, I am naturally inclined to diminish, discredit, and perhaps ultimately disallow yours. 

    But let's be clear: Opinionation is an arrogance whose exclusive copyright lapsed into the public domain long ago.

    There have been a proliferation of posts just like this since this morning, in which there is a remarkable confusion, a lack of irony and self-awareness, and an almost gleeful, if unwitting, willingness to defy Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction.  

    I give up...lol. 

    ~Butters Smile 

    An amended colloquial definition: If in response to a colloquial definition you employ Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction, you're opinionated.   [:P]

  • JoshInRI
    JoshInRI Member Posts: 1,942 ✭✭✭

    Mr. Pitts, I think everyone is welcome.

    Not everyone can be right like me - but certainly everyone is welcome.

    Hope you are chuckling or smiling just a little.

    God bless your day and your posting Sir.

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    JoshInRI said:

    Mr. Pitts, I think everyone is welcome.

    Not everyone can be right like me - but certainly everyone is welcome.

    Hope you are chuckling or smiling just a little.

    God bless your day and your posting Sir.

    Thank you. 

  • Daniel Brueno
    Daniel Brueno Member Posts: 58 ✭✭

    I imagine  many  thought Jesus was intolerable. This verse comes to mind,  66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Was this being intolerable to the many followers with hope in Jesus?  Was it intolerable of Jesus or was it the people who were being intolerable to his word?

    Just my mind going a thousand mile a minute..... 

    .

  • David Ames
    David Ames Member Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭

    No, not everyone is welcome here.

    If you do not have internet connectivity you may not enter.

  • Mike Childs
    Mike Childs Member Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    Great colloquial definition.  I agree.  And I still think that I am opinionated, you are opinionated, everyone is.  Politeness is the art of controlling one's opinionated attitude and being willing to listen to others.


    "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    An amended colloquial definition: If in response to a colloquial definition you employ Aristotle's Principle of Non-Contradiction, you're opinionated.   Stick out tongue

    LOL!  [:P]

    ~Butters [:)]

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • George Somsel
    George Somsel Member Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    I will stedfastly maintain to my dying breath that I am not opinionated.  So there ! 

    george
    gfsomsel

    יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

  • JT (alabama24)
    JT (alabama24) MVP Posts: 36,523

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  • George Somsel
    George Somsel Member Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭

    alabama24 said:

    Only the Good die young, George. Stick out tongue

    Since I'm only 38, I suppose I could be considered to be young.  [;)]

    george
    gfsomsel

    יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

  • John
    John Member Posts: 398 ✭✭

    Is everyone welcome here?

    Jonathan, I am pretty sure that Logos has welcomed all of us. If they were going to get rid of anyone, I'm pretty sure I would be one of the first ones to get the boot [A]

    There are all types of people on the forum. Some are very intelligent and have valuable insight to share. Some others just think they do [;)]

    In threads that veer off topic even a little bit, there is usually at least one well meaning individual who attempts to stop everyone else from having a conversation by posting the forum rules in a legalistic manner. I believe the result is that many posters, and possibly even the best posters, decide not to participate in the discussion. [:#]

    So the rule designed to protect the forum actually has the opposite effect by downgrading the level of conversation.

    But hey, its an imperfect world we live in. I personally do not consider a discussion about Q-theory and its alternatives to be off topic, as Logos has a dozen or so resources speaking directly to the topic. If anything, a discussion on a topic like that might lead to sales of some of those resources. But the legalists are generally not as broadminded as that.

    The particular thread which you might be referring too, I made a post in and was subscribed too. I got an email notification of a message in that thread posted by a particular individual that was very nasty in its tone. Later on when I clicked the link, the message had been deleted. It was at that point I decided not to make any further posts. The same topic had been debated previously by the same individual, and did not end well.

    Some people have pet views (or sacred cows for another term), and take them very personally. I believe we should not be personally attached to our beliefs. Does that make sense? As Jesus said that his doctrine was not his own (John 7:16), he had no need to take insults or challenges to his positions personally. It wasn't his own anyway. The Father who gave it to him would also be responsible for defending it. We can be the same way if we submit our beliefs to God sincerely in prayer.

    So just remember that there may be lots of people who read a thread but do not post. Not because you are not welcome, but for completely different reasons. And if Logos doesn't kick you out, you are still welcome. [H]

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    fundamentalist

    Q: What is a "fundamentalist?"

    A: the "five fundamentals":[9]

    Believing these fundamentals does make you conservative but it does not make you anti-scholarly.  Even the Pope agrees with at least 4 of the 5 (if not all 5.)  The Fundamentals

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Bill Coley
    Bill Coley Member Posts: 214 ✭✭

    A colloquial definition: If you're more interested in others' hearing your opinions than your hearing theirs, you're opinionated.

    Great colloquial definition.  I agree.  And I still think that I am opinionated, you are opinionated, everyone is.  Politeness is the art of controlling one's opinionated attitude and being willing to listen to others.

    Our disagreement, Michael, sounds like semantics. I think everyone has opinions, but not everyone is opinionated. You seem to think everyone is opinionated, but not everyone is polite.

    You say potato, I say....

  • Patrick S.
    Patrick S. Member Posts: 766 ✭✭

    Shouldn't the question be — "Is Jesus welcome in these forums?".

    "I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

  • Josh
    Josh Member Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭

    Butters said:

    I know, don't remind me....lol.  I don't have a television (and didn't grow up with one) and every time I am in an airport I am reminded of how utterly bereft of reasoning our public "conversations" are.  

    Cheers!

    ~Butters Smile

    This makes me wonder how you settled upon the username Butters (with included avatar). Is he not a character on the television show South Park?

  • Josh
    Josh Member Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭

    fundamentalist

    Q: What is a "fundamentalist?"

    A: the "five fundamentals":[9]

    Believing these fundamentals does make you conservative but it does not make you anti-scholarly. 

    I agree.

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,633

    Q: What is a "fundamentalist?"

    A: the "five fundamentals":[9]

    Believing these fundamentals does make you conservative but it does not make you anti-scholarly.  Even the Pope agrees with at least 4 of the 5 (if not all 5.)  The Fundamental Doctrines of the Christian Faith

    That is the correct definition, and the one to which I subscribe. However—at least in this area—a lot of theologically crazy people have stolen the label, and the mainstream media insists on labeling anyone on the lunatic fringe of society as a fundamentalist. 

    Don't know which definition Jonathan had in mind with his stereotyping comment, but I did feel insulted by his unwarranted attack.

  • David Paul
    David Paul Member Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭

    I suppose I fall a bit short of being fundamentalist...not much, just enough to not be wrong.  [:P]

    ASUS  ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti

    "The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."  Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    Don't know which definition Jonathan had in mind with his stereotyping comment, but I did feel insulted by his unwarranted attack.

    I am sorry that you felt insulted.

    As I have tried repeatedly to make clear in my posts here, my objection was not to fundamentalism or conservatism—I have no objection to people holding or expressing those views—they simply seemed to be the background to a series of posts on various threads that made me feel unwelcome for other reasons.

    I probably worded my first post badly. I probably should not have used those two words. I'm sorry for that, as I seem to have been misunderstood and to have offended some people.

    My objection was to the closed mindedness of a large number of posts that I received by email from threads that I had subscribed to. There was a dismissal of anything (even quite conventional conclusions) that had been derived from scholarship. It was the out of hand dismissal of other people's contrasting views that I had a problem with, the expectation that everyone would agree with the posters' views. This made me feel unwelcome to contribute to or read threads which otherwise could have been useful.

    I also objected to threads that become a pointless exchange between two or three posters, which divert the thread from the needs of the original poster. This again makes the forums unwelcoming to others and makes receiving emails of posts tedious rather than informative.

    The last two paragraphs apply whatever the posters' theological background.

    I am sorry if I expressed it badly, but please try to distinguish the underlying general aim of my posts and specifics of the threads that provoked them.

    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them. Everyone should be able to come to these forums, read and make contributions on the subjects of Logos and their resources, without feeling the need to conform to other people's beliefs and opinions. For me, that freedom was lost in several threads that I read over the past few weeks.

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

  • Josh
    Josh Member Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭

    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them. Everyone should be able to come to these forums, read and make contributions on the subjects of Logos and their resources, without feeling the need to conform to other people's beliefs and opinions.

    Is this thread an exception?

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    Josh said:

    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them. Everyone should be able to come to these forums, read and make contributions on the subjects of Logos and their resources, without feeling the need to conform to other people's beliefs and opinions.

    Is this thread an exception?

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    Josh said:

    Butters said:

    I know, don't remind me....lol.  I don't have a television (and didn't grow up with one) and every time I am in an airport I am reminded of how utterly bereft of reasoning our public "conversations" are.  

    Cheers!

    ~Butters Smile

    This makes me wonder how you settled upon the username Butters (with included avatar). Is he not a character on the television show South Park?

    It's funny, I've never owned a television and never liked it on the whole; however, this isn't to say there weren't a few shows worth watching.  I used to go over to a friend's house to watch Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes, for example.  [:)]  But that was pretty much the extent of my television watching when I was a kid.    

    Now that one can stream things via the web, I watch a few things via the web and one of them is South Park (the other is Breaking Bad).  I love watching South Park!  I find it absolutely hilarious.  [:$]

    ~Butters [:)]

    ps., this is great - it's his last words on the show; and he himself was dying rapidly, and it's almost as if he's looking into a mirror as he peers down through the ice. 

    [View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M76nPnaJ7G4&feature=player_embedded:550:0]

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Mark
    Mark Member Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭

    Jonathan

    You are not the first to express thoughts as you have on the forum.  It is a noble aim.  But history shows...we are sinful and this problem will continue.  Even scholars can be guilty of the same problem..because even scholars are filled with pride, sin and stubbornness.  No group, liberal or conservative, fundamental or progressive, foolish or wise will escape this age old problem.  A noble aim.  But history shows...

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

    Personally, I think people really need to re-evaluate their use of this word "tolerance" - it's being profoundly misused; and is being treated as if it were a kind of high virtue (it is not.)  

    Have you noticed that no great thinker, no philosopher, no theologian has ever talked about "tolerance" as a virtue? 

    Indeed, one might say that "tolerance" - conceived negatively, that is to say, untempered by positive values - is a thoroughly vapid concept; and one that would only be considered a virtue in society that is so afraid of actually holding and expressing positive views, that it ties itself into knots trying to maintain that pose.  And like most poses, it is thoroughly self-deceptive.  

    "Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a silence."  G.K. Chesterton

     Cheers, 

    ~Butters [:)]

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,633

    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

    As others have noted, tolerance is not a noble aim, but politeness is quite noble.

  • tom
    tom Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭

    Believing these fundamentals does make you conservative

    I respectfully disagree.  I agree with four of the five, and I AM NOT a conservative.  

    The one that I (and very likely the Pope) will disagree with is with the word "inerrancy."  I do agree with the word "inspiration."

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭


    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

    As others have noted, tolerance is not a noble aim, but politeness is quite noble.

    There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

  • Bruce Dunning
    Bruce Dunning MVP Posts: 11,163

    As others have noted, tolerance is not a noble aim, but politeness is quite noble.

    And that is key here.

    Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

  • Butters
    Butters Member Posts: 466 ✭✭


    What I am asking for is tolerance of other people's views, not because we agree with them but because this is not the place to challenge them

    I am sorry if I have failed in my own tolerance. It remains a noble aim none the less.

    As others have noted, tolerance is not a noble aim, but politeness is quite noble.

    There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

    This is just going around in circles.  

    Maybe you need to be more "open-minded" about the possibility that your use of the word "intolerance" is incoherent, or "close minded," or "intolerant"?  (On your own terms and their use of them; not mine, mind you!)

    But I suspect the problem goes deeper than this.  

    I suspect that you're in the habit of seeking approval and affirmation from people.  

    Among people of your sort (the sort of people who use the word "intolerant" the way you do), I have often suspected that they believe the point of conversations and discussions is to affirm one another.  And that the whole point of a social order is to embrace everything and everyone.  

    Would you say this is an accurate portrayal?

    ~Butters [:)]   

    “To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

  • Mike Pettit
    Mike Pettit Member Posts: 1,041 ✭✭

    To promote tolerance is not a morally neutral position, it is actually quite an aggressive position (which of course does not mean that it is necessarily wrong) 

  • David Paul
    David Paul Member Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭

    I will NEVER tolerate any position that my judgment deems to be against the expressed will of YHWH. I will exercise patience with those who hold such positions, however, in the same way YHWH does--right up until He wipes such nonsense off the face of the earth.

    ASUS  ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti

    "The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."  Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.

  • David Paul
    David Paul Member Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭

    There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

    You may have spoken your inevitable extinction.

    ASUS  ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti

    "The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."  Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

    You may have spoken your inevitable extinction.

    Thank you. I am already feeling suicidal today.

    That really helps.

  • Mark
    Mark Member Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭

    Butters said:

    This is just going around in circles.

    These posts always do.  Call it tolerance, respect, politeness.  Argue over semantics.  It is most likely that most people reading and responding to this thread knows that Jonathan follows a long line of others who have expressed a longing for a bit of kindness in the forums.  But these threads always go in circles.  And always will.

    Jonathan, you are welcome in the forums.  There are thousands in these forums and one cannot actually read and respond to every post.  So we choose to ignore many threads.  And when threads get out of hand, we learn to ignore them to.  The forum is a great tool.  You can contribute, but more often than not, you can learn from others as I have learned from others.

    Hopefully this helps you and others.

  • Jonathan Pitts
    Jonathan Pitts Member Posts: 670 ✭✭

    Butters said:

    This is just going around in circles.  

    Maybe you need to be more "open-minded" about the possibility that your use of the word "intolerance" is incoherent, or "close minded," or "intolerant"?  (On your own terms and their use of them; not mine, mind you!)

    As I wrote before, I use the word as it is defined in the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. If some people would prefer the word patience for that meaning, fine.

    Butters said:

    But I suspect the problem goes deeper than this.  

    I suspect that you're in the habit of seeking approval and affirmation from people.  

    I certainly don't like conflict.

    Butters said:

    Among people of your sort (the sort of people who use the word "intolerant" the way you do), I have often suspected that they believe the point of conversations and discussions is to affirm one another.

    The purpose of conversations on the Logos forums is to affirm and support one another in our use of Logos Bible Software.

    There may be places where intolerance is appropriate, but this is not one of them.

    Butters said:

    And that the whole point of a social order is to embrace everything and everyone.  

    You may disagree, but I believe that the whole point of the Christian social order is to embrace everyone.

This discussion has been closed.