Logos March Madness: No Women?
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Not to go too far off topic, but I do say that I kindof disagree. Sexism, racism, ...'ism are all still with us; they just have gone underground & are not as easily spotted.MJ. Smith said:Fortunately, the age group that didn't ever see the worse of it is growing. Unfortunately, it is becoming easier to be blind to the residuals.
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Thanks, these are some great courses.Rosie Perera said:If anyone is still reading this thread who wishes there'd been some female authors on sale, here's something you might rejoice about: in honor of International Women's Day, which is coming up March 8, Regent Audio (associated with Regent College and the Regent Bookstore in Vancouver) is offering 50% off a whole bunch of audio courses and lectures by top-notch women scholars:
http://regentcollege.cmail3.com/t/ViewEmail/j/AA5BF6F46764C8B7
Only 3 out of the 27 titles have anything to do with gender. Women scholars are interested in the whole spectrum of things that men are. But when it comes to studies of gender, the ones offered here are not fluff at all. I sat in on the course called "Mapping Gender" by Sarah Williams, and it was incredibly rigorous scholarship by a historian who used to teach at Oxford.
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I'm surprised the 'slave-ism' didn't survive along with all the rest of the 'ism's. I'm not advocating slavery; only that Christians really feel put-upon to behave well to other humans. All these 'ism's are just sooooo Christian.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Oh, Josh. Don't be so bashful about last week's sermon. It must have been a doozie.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Josh said:
Oh...have some fun MJ.
I do ... but I don't trust the motives of someone who feels it is appropriate to call people or their ideas stupid or dumb on Logos forums. Earn my trust and I'll respond appropriately.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
Oh, Josh. Don't be so bashful about last week's sermon. It must have been a doozie.
I'll be sure to upload it to SermonCentral! [;)]
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MJ. Smith said:Josh said:
Oh...have some fun MJ.
I do ... but I don't trust the motives of someone who feels it is appropriate to call people or their ideas stupid or dumb on Logos forums. Earn my trust and I'll respond appropriately.
Wow, that must have really bothered you. However, I stand by what I said. Bart Ehrman's work is anti-Christian. His position is foolish. Here is a direct quote from Bart: "I no longer know whether God exists. But if he does exist, I'm convinced that he is not the God I was raised to believe in, a God who intervenes in history on behalf of his people to answer their prayers and to save them from their pain."
If your not willing to call that conclusion "dumb", then so be it. You might never be able to trust my motives. [:O]
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Josh, your humor is getting the best of you.
I assume you're aware Logos marketed with significant price savings this month two solid authors. One was arguing the God of the Old Testament was developed just south of the expressway into Amman Jordan just a few centuries before Herod.
The other was busily demonstrating why Christianity was a greek cult developed by hellenistic jews that got kicked out of Jerusalem after their apocalyptic leader got strung up (with Paul sweatng it out on how to accomodate the Pharisee resurrection with the greek one).
I get the feeling you're not familiar with the Logos library and the marketing thereof? As you're flailing at your favorite author, there's big deals to be had.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I found the joke picture Josh posted to be humorous. I found it such because I feel it reflects very truly what some people once believed. As for Bart, I would not agree with his statement but I will say I agree with J.B. Phillips "Your God is too small." And I say this not Josh or even a lot to Ehrman, but to anyone who thinks Christ came to bring less than life at it's fullest to all (as we read in John). I a lot of people in many corners of the church have a very small God. A few others try to turn God into some great Santa Claus up above who can be ordered around in some bizarre name it and claim it theology. We can learn much of God from Scripture, but we never do see more than dimly in a brass mirror save those few blessed who may receive a theophany, yet even that leaves one unable to fully articulate the glory. I am willing to hope this may open minds and hearts. In the same way the lampooning of the 60s churches who claimed mixed marriage was wrong.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
I found the joke picture Josh posted to be humorous. I found it such because I feel it reflects very truly what some people once believed.
In a number of contexts, I would also find it funny for much the same reason and unlike you or Josh, I grew up as a girl in the 50's ... but not with this sort of message.
Dan Francis said:As for Bart, I would not agree with his statement but I will say I agree with J.B. Phillips "Your God is too small."
My reaction as well - I think Bart wise to give up such a small God. Too bad we can't convince him its worth the search for the Real God.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Josh said:
Wow, that must have really bothered you.
It does in the sense that you don't seem to understand how that type of comment makes it more difficult to bring people to God. My church is a university church - founded to minister to the needs to students. When students can point to anti-logic, bigotry, unwillingness to engage in respectful dialogue etc. ... it makes my job, and the job of my parish more difficult. So yes, calling things "stupid" or "dumb" rather than "unfounded", "fallacious" or "ill-informed" bothers me ... and I think it should bother any Christian concerned about retaining young adults in the church. Can it said occasionally as a joke - of course, when it clearly intended as funny or flippant.
Edit: specifically because Bart is popular and controversial, one can use his books to open a conversation you might otherwise not be able to have. And, perhaps, even grow the image of God into the God who is believable through all one's education.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Josh said:
Wow, that must have really bothered you.
It does in the sense that you don't seem to understand how that type of comment makes it more difficult to bring people to God. My church is a university church - founded to minister to the needs to students. When students can point to anti-logic, bigotry, unwillingness to engage in respectful dialogue etc. ... it makes my job, and the job of my parish more difficult. So yes, calling things "stupid" or "dumb" rather than "unfounded", "fallacious" or "ill-informed" bothers me ... and I think it should bother any Christian concerned about retaining young adults in the church. Can it said occasionally as a joke - of course, when it clearly intended as funny or flippant.
Edit: specifically because Bart is popular and controversial, one can use his books to open a conversation you might otherwise not be able to have. And, perhaps, even grow the image of God into the God who is believable through all one's education.
I get what you're saying, but I believe you are taking this to a level that is unnecessary. If you really think my off-the-cuff comment on a primarily Christian viewed forum will truly affect your efforts to evangelize young college students, then we will have to agree to disagree.
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I saw this Twitter post today from Inter Varsity Press.
Today is Intl Women's Day & we're celebrating our fabulous female authors! We are so honored to publish them! ow.ly/i/4P7LG
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Bruce Roth said:
I saw this Twitter post today from Inter Varsity Press.
Today is Intl Women's Day & we're celebrating our fabulous female authors! We are so honored to publish them! ow.ly/i/4P7LG
Great that they tweeted that, but there is no mention of International Women's Day on their website since 2011 (Google search: "International Women's Day" site:ivpress.com), nor any sale on their books by women's authors. They don't even tell us the names of those women in the picture, so how can we find their books and possibly buy them? Not a great marketing idea, IVP!
But after a bit of searching around, I see that IVP has launched, a couple of years ago, an imprint called Crescendo, designed to "rais[e] the profile of women authors in the market." "Reaching thoughtful Christian women has similarly been a core part of IVP's identity. To that end, IVP is launching Crescendo, a unique line of books written by women who tell the stories of God's activities in their lives as they seek to become women of courage, confidence and calling. The line, which will include reflective writing and memoir, is for those who want more than inspiration and escape in their reading. With lead authors like Carolyn Weber, Shayne Moore and Patty Kirk, Crescendo will celebrate and articulate women's experiences and leadership not only in their personal worlds but across national and global landscapes as well."
While this might be a good move in some women's minds, to my mind it merely sections off women authors as a different category who focus only on issues of interest to women readers. That is too bad, because there are plenty of top-notch women authors who can cut it in the realm of male authors and who interest a readership that is gender blind. Certainly not as many as there are males of such caliber, but that is because historically, women have not had support to follow their aspirations towards the levels of theological education required to write such good books. It is changing slowly, slowly. There's still some resistance to Christian women authors writing anything other than "reflective writing and memoir" or books about "women's experiences." Or it might not be resistance per se, just a lack of experience that anything of more broad appeal can be contributed by women.
I'm reminded of a quote from Boswell's Life of Johnson: "I told him I had been that morning at a meeting of the people called Quakers, where I had heard a woman preach. Johnson: 'Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.'" I think a certain subset of Christian men today are of that same mindset about women doing serious biblical/theological writing. They might be impressed to see one example of it, but it would be a quirky exception in their minds. Certainly not something to be encouraged more, as it might discourage women from doing what they really should be doing, which is being sweet precious things who are utterly different from men in the way they approach matters of faith, and taking care of things on the home front, and deferring to men in matters of theological understanding.
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I suspect Christiandom never did know what to do with the ones without the correct plumbing, after Jesus headed back to Heaven.
My favorite archaeologists (both Southwest and Israel) are women, my doctor's a woman, my lawyer's a woman, and my boss and the CEO were women when I retired. In fact, I have to search long and hard for a competent man (just joking, Josh). Oh wait ... my dentist is a man. At church the most enjoyed portions of the worship service are led by women (the pastor is a guy but good at his part).
But when it comes to Christian books (meaty as DAL assures), it's primarily male and always the wonder how they got their logic past their teenage kids.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I would add Diane Bergant to that list. I enjoy her Biblical scholarship for scholarly and popular audiences.
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FWIW:
Janet_Mefferd is as sharp as they come.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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JRS said:
Janet_Mefferd is as sharp as they come.
Yes, she is; and having been recently run over by the evangelical-industrial publishing machine for being honest, even more so IMO.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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"I read dead people..."
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Phil Gons said:
Thanks for the feedback. There's no intentional gender discrimination going on here....
Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year? Should we not be concerned about the number of books an author has in Logos (that we can discount up to 75% off)? Should we ignore how well an author's books sell? Our current thinking is that this would compromise the overall effectiveness of the sale, but we're certainly open to rethinking things.
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog. Because clearly it's your selection that's actually the problem here. Spend a year focused on adding works by serious theological scholars who happen to be women and people of color (and non-American/European and perhaps not-able-bodied while you're at it). Spend a year focusing on Progressive Christian authors (or as I've also heard it called, Ecumenical Christianity). Add books by Rachel Held Evans and Nadia Bolz-Weber and Phyllis Tickle and Norma Cook Everist and more books by Pamela Cooper-White.
Hire a Content Editor (is that what you call them? you have one for Catholics who was fairly recently added to your staff, I think) for this group. Put some intentional work into that area and let me tell you, it will pay off in sales. My one problem with your software is that I'm stuck buying the minimal crossgrades because from the Starter packages on up, there are oodles of resources I won't want or use (though the maps and the images look great) because, as far as I can tell, most of them are written by people who would likely refuse to call me by my title (Pastor) if they met me.
Take a year to focus on broadening your company's understanding of the reach of God's voice. You won't lose your more conservative customers- even if most of them probably didn't already have enough invested in your software that they'd be loath to give it up, they will understand that they've been your overwhelming focus so far and that you need to widen your reach a bit. That because all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, it is part of your company's calling to make sure they are fed as well, and not to mention it's good for business! Just of the denominations I can think of in the USA, the ELCA, PCUSA, UMC, Episcopalians, and Reformed churches (all of whom ordain women, I might add- just like the American Baptists, of course) would love to have more resources from you they can really use, and that's an awfully big demographic! It's good business and good Christian fellowship, win/win!
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KatieBLutheran said:
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog.
Great post... to all of it..
[Y]
-Dan
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KatieBLutheran said:
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog
I am all for Logos broadening their catalog. I want that expansion to be on a theological basis not on gender. It is wiser for Logos to concentrate on what the majority of users want to purchase. Eventually we will get the minority opinions too.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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KatieBLutheran said:
Take a year to focus on broadening your company's understanding of the reach of God's voice. You won't lose your more conservative customers- even if most of them probably didn't already have enough invested in your software that they'd be loath to give it up, they will understand that they've been your overwhelming focus so far and that you need to widen your reach a bit. That because all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, it is part of your company's calling to make sure they are fed as well, and not to mention it's good for business!
You might think that it would be ridiculous but I think that you are wrong here.
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ST, I can't believe you and your wife share the same theological reading preferences. I'm VERY sure you share the same goals, which are outstanding.
But demanding that the pre-existant customer base set the rules simply poses the question 'why'? If a business is hard up for cash, an existing customer base would be a good reason. If a business wishes to expand, the rule would be self-defeating (as Katie hints at).
Now the part Katie didn't mention (and may not be aware of), is that Bob the CEO has had experience in failing businesses and sees 'customers-now' as the slow but reliable path (requiring considerable Cadallac-pricing, but none the less reliable).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Super.Tramp said:KatieBLutheran said:
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog
I am all for Logos broadening their catalog. I want that expansion to be on a theological basis not on gender. It is wiser for Logos to concentrate on what the majority of users want to purchase. Eventually we will get the minority opinions too.
[Y]
Agreed. If someone writes the best commentary on a topic, I don't care if they are pink, purple, blue, male, female, or martian. I want to read it (or at a minimum reference it) to help keep my sword sharp.
If a book by a minority has to be prefaced with "the best book written by a black woman" than it is implied that there are other books out there that were better written by some other gender, or an individual of a different race. This type of thing makes me want to skip over it, and go right to the top 5 or 10 titles (unequivocally), and spend my time on those.
The tricky part is Bob has to "guess what I'm thinking" in regards to those titles. I always try to help by sending in syllabi from my seminary (and have seen more than one big expensive set broken up subsequent to having done this)...
Bob - if it has to be qualified to be the best, I'm less interested.
I traveled to the Fl keys once, and everyone said "oh you have to go to the southern most point of the US, its on Key west". I did so, and the placard was disappointing and for similar reasons. It is in fact the "southeastern most point in the united states that is currently accessible by civilians". Clearly from the great bouy there is much of Key West to the south east of this point... Never the less, scores of people visit and have their picture taken with this giant railroad era sewer pipe thats been painted to look a certain way. Talk about successful marketing.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
Bob - if it has to be qualified to be the best, I'm less interested.
but I'm not especially if its "best form criticism" or "best rhetorical criticism" or "best socio-cultural criticism" or "best structuralist commentary" ....[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[Y]
lol
I think my prof would say "context context context MJ".
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Super.Tramp said:KatieBLutheran said:
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog
I am all for Logos broadening their catalog. I want that expansion to be on a theological basis not on gender. It is wiser for Logos to concentrate on what the majority of users want to purchase. Eventually we will get the minority opinions too.
i agree about broadening the catalog. I remember when I looked at the resource, Africa Biblical Commentary, that the articles were written by Africans and according to the publisher, Zondervan, over 25% of the authors are women. I think that if one makes the effort one could find excellent resources that are written by women and others from around the world.
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IMHO, we should not have to 'make an effort' because of the amount and quality of the resources that are written by women and from others around the world.Bruce Roth said:I think that if one makes the effort
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Come to find out, its not even the southeastern most accessible point of the state, or the island; much less the united states - forgot to update the quote to reflect this...abondservant said:I traveled to the Fl keys once, and everyone said "oh you have to go to the southern most point of the US, its on Key west". I did so, and the placard was disappointing and for similar reasons. It is in fact the "southeastern most point in the united states that is currently accessible by civilians". Clearly from the great bouy there is much of Key West to the south east of this point... Never the less, scores of people visit and have their picture taken with this giant railroad era sewer pipe thats been painted to look a certain way. Talk about successful marketing.
Should have read "southeastern most permanently inhabited point in the united states that is currently readily accessible by civilians".
There are a whole string of Islands beyond Key West, some are privately owned and don't allow visitors. Some are military.
You can take all this as gospel truth because I am the best qualified - former floridian of mixed race that graduated from a small bible college in florida, who has all ten digits, currently attends seminary in the south and demonstrates incomplete genetic dominance in his eyes - to speak on this subject. (Actually, I lived there for almost two years cumulative total, but thats beside the point).
Maybe a woman with a background in socio-rhetorical commentary might be better suited to this subject... but I digress
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Yes, abonservant. If you had been minimally familiar with the Civil War and the period prior, you would know that Key West was the take off point to America's political prison (at the time).
Now, Michael of Mississippi would know that. I get the feeling socio-rhetorical might not be his cup of tea though. Nor mine.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Super.Tramp said:KatieBLutheran said:
To make a suggestion- use the same criteria and broaden your catalog
I am all for Logos broadening their catalog. I want that expansion to be on a theological basis not on gender. It is wiser for Logos to concentrate on what the majority of users want to purchase. Eventually we will get the minority opinions too.
Women are not a minority. They make up half the human race. And more than half the church in America. But I get it that they are currently a minority among biblical/theological/pastoral writers.
I agree as well that seeking for gender diversity shouldn't be the goal, but rather broadening the theological offerings. However, one of the results of more theological breadth will necessarily be more books by women (without specifically trying for it), because many of the denominations not very well represented yet in Logos's catalog do welcome the input of women in the otherwise male-dominated fields of theology and biblical and pastoral studies, and have been doing so for decades. Therefore, they've had long enough to develop some excellent female authors whom we all would learn from. Not that they'd give us something gender-specific that would be better than what we get from men, but they probably come from different sorts of theological backgrounds (because those are the sorts that allow women to use their gifts), so they'd bring some theological diversity to the mix.
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