Layouts save automatically as snapshots. How to disable automatic saving?

Hi Brian,

I had never noticed that. Thanks for posting!

Although I don't mind having the layouts automatically created, I, too, don't want to have to do cleanup. After reading your post, I checked & discovered I had layouts created from early September & on. I'd be happy with just the last several... or the last several day's worth... or even better an optional setting that allows users to specifiy how long they should be saved.

Logos, thanks for listening!

Bill

Rich DeRuiter

One thing I find annoying in Logos 4 is the automatic saving feature of layouts when you perform actions in logos. These layouts are saved as untitled snapshots and just accumulate in the Layouts list - which I do not want! How can I make L4 save layouts only when I want to save a layout, so that useless snapshots don't get accumulated?

Of course, I can deleted unwanted layouts every single time. This is what I am currently doing and I find it annoying. It would be nice to have a setting that would allow one to turn ON and OFF the automatic saving feature. In my case I wish to save layouts only when I want to. A bit similar to MS Word automatic saving feature, to save your document every X minutes or to just disable this feature and save your work manually.

Thanks!

Does this get in your way?

I don't understand the problem.

(BTW, I have WordPerfect save every 5 minutes or so. This has saved me a few times when WP crashed.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52865#Comment_52865

Does this get in your way?

Obviously not, since I didn't even know they were there. But why save them forever? That just seems like a waste of disk space. Besides, I'm still in the habit of naming and/or saving any significant layout or evolution of a named layout. I really don't need more than a few days worth of backup of anything unnamed. If it's earlier than last Sunday, I've moved on to a new text, anyway. [;)]

Blessings!

Bill

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52870#Comment_52870

Does this get in your way?

Obviously not, since I didn't even know they were there. But why save them forever? That just seems like a waste of disk space. Besides, I'm still in the habit of naming and/or saving any significant layout or evolution of a named layout. I really don't need more than a few days worth of backup of anything unnamed. If it's earlier than last Sunday, I've moved on to a new text, anyway.

Blessings!

Bill

I agree it's not necessary to save layouts for more than a week, or two, or the last 10 or 20, or something like that. It seems kind of silly, if not a little OCD to save them back to September 10 (as my machine does - probably my first Beta layout).

But it also seems a bit unnecessary (to me, at least), to want to get rid of them. If there's a good reason to get rid of them, let me know. I like expanding my understanding of how people think. I can't imagine disk space being a major consideration. How big are these layouts anyway, a few KB maybe?

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52849#Comment_52849

Although I don't mind having the layouts automatically created, I, too, don't want to have to do cleanup. After reading your post, I checked & discovered I had layouts created from early September & on. I'd be happy with just the last several... or the last several day's worth... or even better an optional setting that allows users to specifiy how long they should be saved.

Okay - I am trying to find where these are stored. Any hints could be appreciated.

Blessings,

Floyd

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52888#Comment_52888

On Vista/Windows 7 they're at

C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Local\Logos4\Documents\{random}\LayoutManager\layouts.db

David Paul

I completely concur...the accumulation is unnecessary, wasteful, and tedious. I think the MS way is that it can save every 5 min (or whatever length is chosen) but it saves OVER the previous save, its purpose being simply to get you back to the most recent "unsaved" save in case of mishap or whatever. That would suit me fine, but an option to save all layouts during a given (chosen) period of time would work too, with the stale layouts auto deleted. But perhaps there already is a feature like this? If not, it is a definite "must add" feature.

Thanks for listening.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52880#Comment_52880

Well thank you all for responding.

Personally, I don't like it and it should be customizable. Im sure other people don't like it as well but never paid much attention since one could just search the wanted layout with a few keywords. I don't think disk space is an issue, each layout is certainly less than a few MBs. I just wish I could see in the layouts list the ones I saved and none other. So there should be a setting to turn this feature on and off to accommodate people. I have a bunch of snapshots that are just useless, completely useless since they have nothing to do with a layout I wanted to save in the first place and they just accumulate.

My comparison with MS word wasn't to suggest that saving a word document every 5 secs isn't useful. It is, and I have that feature on. But with Logos 4 it isn't the same issue. The mention of MS Word automatic saving feature was to point out that it can be disabled in MS Word and it should be the same for Logos 4, the feature should be able to be disabled.

Thanks once again! [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52901#Comment_52901

Personally, I don't like it and it should be customizable. Im sure other people don't like it as well

Unfortunately, I've never held to the "I don't like it" model of system development ... on the other hand "I don't like it because it makes it harder for me to ...", "I don't like it because it visually misleads me and I think ...", "I don't like it because I need to be able to do .... which it prohibits", "I don't like it because it slows response time" I would rather have Logos working on getting my note links working or expand/contract at the book level in the search function or PBB's ...

You may well be correct that other people don't like it - put together a good case for it and I'm sure Logos will listen.

Jacob Hantla

I'm really not sure I understand the problem. The snapshots are likely exceedingly small (so hard dive fillup isn't a problem).

I have found them incredibly helpful after I go off on rabbit trails and I want to get back to where I was when I had my layout right.

They don't clutter up the saved layout section, just the area to the right, which, if you don't want them, you can ignore.

As I read through this thread, I simply didn't find anything convincing as to why Logos should take the time (or clutter up preference setting dialogs) to enable this.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52999#Comment_52999

I think you are right Jacob. With a little imagination I think auto-saved layouts can be quite handy for getting things back on track after I open up a bunch of other books. Neat idea :-)

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52897#Comment_52897

I completely concur...the accumulation is unnecessary, wasteful, and tedious.

Name those that you want to keep and delete those you don't want (select a layout then hit "X"). My layouts.db is 5 MB and I haven't removed any in a week.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52996#Comment_52996

Adding a setting to turn on or off automatic saving of layouts isn't hard compared to all other innovative features L4 has. I am not asking to reinvent indexing or something in that genre. This is why OpenOffice and Windows 7 succeded because of flexibility given to the user community. Why wouldn't Logos listen to this?

If it's not done, whatever! If it is, then great. Personally, I find it annoying and useless. I m no asking to remove automatic saving but just a parameter to be added to be able to turn it on or off. In fact the customization menu in L4 is pretty bleached and empty. Not much customization. But this is not important, these are just minor details. Adding a setting to turn automatic saving on or off isn't hard and I don't know why it would be a waste of time for logos to do this. Im not asking to reinvent the wheel. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53269#Comment_53269

If it's not done, whatever! If it is, then great. Personally, I find it annoying and useless. I m no asking to remove automatic saving but just a parameter to be added to be able to turn it on or off. In fact the customization menu in L4 is pretty bleached and empty. Not much customization. But this is not important, these are just minor details. Adding a setting to turn automatic saving on or off isn't hard and I don't know why it would be a waste of time for logos to do this. Im not asking to reinvent the wheel.

From my perspective each logic branch in the code adds two additional paths and usually one possible error (value that splits the code in some way invalid). In addition, some aspects of the logic need to be added to the test protocol. That is why I generally don't support customization options that make no difference in work flow or error rate. Yup, I'm feeling stubborn today so I'll hide behind my shades.[H]

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53659#Comment_53659

I concur Brian- the saving of snapshots other than when you want to is rather, well unnecessary. The old save workspace was the way to do it- or save snapshot if you will.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53663#Comment_53663

the saving of snapshots other than when you want to is rather, well unnecessary.

As long as the program and machine never crash and you never accidently close the program - or have grandchildren or pets close it for you.[;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53720#Comment_53720

Thank you all for taking this into consideration!

MJ. Smith:

Your explanation is fine by me, at least you took the matter into account. That the program may crash or any other "adverse reaction" may happen assumes you are working in Logos rather than just practicing using Logos or just reading (like I was doing this week). If I am just reading I will not care about the layout (I probably only have one or two resources opened), I just re-open my material if the PC hangs. Again, Im not arguing that the feature is not useful or that it should be removed. *That* would be silly from my part. It is useful when you know you will be working on something serious that requires organization of your resources, but sometimes I wish it could be turned off. That's all.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53920#Comment_53920

The point of "save workspace" was to actually save items you worked on- not just random or because you were there. While it is convienent, you still hase to name your "snapshot" in order to so-called save it as that particular workspace, so why not just eliminate all the unnecessary "layouts" and save what you want.

Thus my assertion "save workspace" was the really what is needed.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/53932#Comment_53932

The point of "save workspace" was to actually save items you worked on- not just random or because you were there. While it is convienent, you still hase to name your "snapshot" in order to so-called save it as that particular workspace, so why not just eliminate all the unnecessary "layouts" and save what you want.

Thus my assertion "save workspace" was the really what is needed.

Well from my perspective, sometimes I don't realize I want to save a workspace until after I've already somehow managed to destroy it by either accidentally closing windows, closing the app, running off on some rabbit trail, or something else. So I really appreciate the ability to be able to flip back in history...not just where a particular resource was open to, but to what my screen and the sum of all my resources was open to.

Karen Campbell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54073#Comment_54073

So I really appreciate the ability to be able to flip back in history...not just where a particular resource was open to, but to what my screen and the sum of all my resources was open to.

That's a valid point.

Kaye Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54073#Comment_54073

I agree with Brian. I'd like to see the ability to turn off
auto-snapshots (and also history tracking!). At the very least I don't want
endless data of either one stored on my drive because no matter how cheap storage is or how much you have it will fill up at some point and degrade performance. At best,
I'd like the choice on whether or not it is stored at all. Hard
drives are the slowest piece of hardware in the system, between bandwidth (how fast the data travels to the drive) and latency (time the disk needs to rotate the correct sector into place to start writing there). I'd like to avoid that bottleneck in something that's a convenience I don't need for the way I use the system. With small writes, bandwidth is not a big deal but latency is always an issue. I think the data is also sent back to the cloud. One less thing to take up bandwidth and space at Logos!

Making this change is fairly simple to program. It's not likely that the programmers who have created and continue to enhance Logos 4 would introduce a serious bug with such a change. I have faith in them!

This is obviously a wish list item, after the system is mature and stable, but one I'd be glad to see at some point.

People seem to have surprisingly strong opinions on this! I'm not trying to stir that up. Just wanted to cast my Yea vote so Logos would know I like the idea and say why I'm behind it.

Kaye

Jack Caviness

I see no reason for the Logos programmers to waste time eliminating a feature that some of us find useful, especially when it is so easy to ignore if you don't want to use it. It does not obscure saved layouts, it does not fill up gigabytes of disk space, and it provides a useful history. I just wanted to cast my vote for Logos to leave the auto save feature as it is.

Chris Elford

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54160#Comment_54160

I side with Jacob on this one. I have wanted to go back to a layout I had before that I didn't save and name, because I didn't realize its importance at the time. Likewise, I like the history because I've gone back to searches and guides I remember using to see what I did or how it worked.

However, I see the arguments on the other side and don't want it saved "ad infinitum." The option to have it saved or not saved is reasonable, IMHO. At the least an option to have it saved for a certain period of time or to a certain size (like most browser histories or caches) would be acceptable to me.

Chris

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54257#Comment_54257

At the least an option to have it saved for a certain period of time or to a certain size (like most browser histories or caches) would be acceptable to me.

This gets my vote...

Or, is this already built in to the program? If not, it's a pretty big design flaw.....

Chris Elford

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54261#Comment_54261

At the least an option to have it saved for a certain period of time or to a certain size (like most browser histories or caches) would be acceptable to me.

This gets my vote...

Or, is this already built in to the program? If not, it's a pretty big design flaw.....

Looks to me that it is about a week. I have saved and named layouts back to Sept. (L4 secret beta days - sounds like a blue light special), but no Unnamed ones past Monday.

In History, there are no dates, but I think it goes longer - maybe a certain number???

Chris

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54261#Comment_54261

At the least an option to have it saved for a certain period of time or to a certain size (like most browser histories or caches) would be acceptable to me.

This gets my vote...

Or, is this already built in to the program? If not, it's a pretty big design flaw.....

My layouts list is fairly short - only shows a few weeks, plus some older ones that are saved. I've been using the program more than that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54191#Comment_54191

JackCaviness,

You did not read the previous posts. No one we want the feature to be removed. We said we want the feature to be turned on or off in the settings of L4; To accommodate either. I sometimes would want it on and other times off.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52849#Comment_52849

[:@]

Well, I discovered a reason for LEAVING the layouts alone... was trying to be conscientious & clean them up. Here's what I discovered (and confirmed, accidentally).

Deleting from the list of saved layouts will ALSO delete from your list of named layouts, WITHOUT TELLING / WARNING us.

Now I'll have to recreate my favorite layout.

[:D]

On the other hand, John Fidel & Mark Barnes (I think) have given me new ideas for creating a layout that takes better advantage of L4 & that I think I'll like even better than my former favorite named layout--which essentially preserved my L3 thinking on how to do work... [:O]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57472#Comment_57472

Well, I discovered a reason for LEAVING the layouts alone... was trying to be conscientious & clean them up. Here's what I discovered (and confirmed, accidentally).

Deleting from the list of saved layouts will ALSO delete from your list of named layouts, WITHOUT TELLING / WARNING us.

Now I'll have to recreate my favorite layout.

That's no good! If you rename a layout, it should either create a copy of it and leave the timestamp named one alone, or remove it from your timestamp saved layouts list. Once you name it, you're not going to go looking for it by date anymore so it doesn't need to be in that list, and it only opens people up to the potential for this disaster if they're trying to clean up that list.

jcc

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52865#Comment_52865

The type of thinking of leaving it in without providing the option of turning off because one thinks that everybody should have them is the type of thinking that makes logos so slow. I don't know if this particular issue causes any performance problems. I can imagine it might cause performance problems since it have to save to disk which can cause problems if the disk is busy with something else, in addition, sometimes it have to sync up with internet. Remember is not the actual speed that counts, but the perception of speed. If saving the layout constantly in the background means that extra .5-1 sec delay of updating something on the screen which otherwise should have been a simple opening up a new window, it would seem slow to the user.

Even if this particular issue isn't the cause of what's making logos seems so slow, the ability to customize it to different people's style is always a good thing. People who likes it keeps it, people who don't can turn them off. If you want to follow Microsoft's example, microsoft word does allow people to turn off autosaving. (Which I do because sometimes, I'm typing something, and when it saves, it give that 1 sec lag which is really annoying.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57472#Comment_57472

Well, I discovered a reason for LEAVING the layouts alone... was trying to be conscientious & clean them up. Here's what I discovered (and confirmed, accidentally).

Deleting from the list of saved layouts will ALSO delete from your list of named layouts, WITHOUT TELLING / WARNING us.

Now I'll have to recreate my favorite layout.

Do you mean that when you deleted a named layout on the "recent" (right) side it also deleted that same named layout on the "named" (left) side? While I wouldn't have assumed that, but I don't consider it problematic. However, if you mean that you deleted unnamed (snapshot) layouts it affects the named layout, then there should be a major bug report.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57564#Comment_57564

when you deleted a named layout on the "recent" (right) side it also deleted that same named layout on the "named" (left) side?

Yes. I didn't notice that newly named layouts went onto the left side AND the right side when they suddenly appeared on the left... I thought they were all on the left. [:(]

For me, trying to manage that list isn't worth the risk of deleting something I care about... Nor is it intuitively obvious why named layouts appear on both sides, either. [:S]

Thanks, Martha!

Bill

Nevertheless,

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57472#Comment_57472

was trying to be conscientious & clean them up.

why do they need "cleaned up"?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57794#Comment_57794

Yes. I didn't notice that newly named layouts went onto the left side AND the right side when they suddenly appeared on the left... I thought they were all on the left.

Are these labels different in te windows version?

Left side is Named Layouts and right side is Recently used.

Nor is it intuitively obvious why named layouts appear on both sides, either.

The named ones appear on the left side to indicate the last time you used that layout.. thus the idea of "recently" used layouts.

I did test out the delete thing and I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Deleting a layout on the Right should NOT delete the Layout from the saved list on the left. That, I agree,needs to be rectified.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57801#Comment_57801

Deleting a layout on the Right should NOT delete the Layout from the saved list on the left. That, I agree,needs to be rectified.

I agree, specifically because of the confusion it caused.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57867#Comment_57867

Yes, deleting a named layout found in the recently used list should not delete the one on the left side, since it should only be a list of saved layouts, not the actual saved layout.

Thank you all to have kept up the discussion revolving around layouts. [H]

George Allakhverdyan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/57564#Comment_57564

Well, I discovered a reason for LEAVING the layouts alone... was trying to be conscientious & clean them up. Here's what I discovered (and confirmed, accidentally).

Deleting from the list of saved layouts will ALSO delete from your list of named layouts, WITHOUT TELLING / WARNING us.

Now I'll have to recreate my favorite layout.

Do you mean that when you deleted a named layout on the "recent" (right) side it also deleted that same named layout on the "named" (left) side? While I wouldn't have assumed that, but I don't consider it problematic. However, if you mean that you deleted unnamed (snapshot) layouts it affects the named layout, then there should be a major bug report.

I have reported this, thanks.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58085#Comment_58085

have reported this, thanks.

Thanks, George!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58085#Comment_58085

I have reported this, thanks.

Thank you. I posted this on the Mac side as well, so I am glad this is a recognized bug and will get fixed [Y]

George Allakhverdyan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58447#Comment_58447

I have reported this, thanks.
Thank you. I posted this on the Mac side as well, so I am glad this is a recognized bug and will get fixed

Not so sure everyone sees eye to eye on this one, a fix might come in the form of an undo..

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58475#Comment_58475

If I get a vote, I would say that an "Undo" for the saved Layout on the left is good, but when a user deletes a layout from the "snapshots" it should never delete the saved layout on the Right.

Philip E. Sumpter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58510#Comment_58510

I unfortunately haven't the time to read this entire thread. At least on the first page no-one mentioned the disadvantage I see with automatic saving: I means I don't have a good overview of all my other files in the File window. With so many "Untitled Syntax Search"s I have to scroll up and down to locate my other files (clippings, notes etc.). I'd prefer it if they weren't saved.

I'd also prefer it if new searches weren't always opened in a new window so that I have to dock them every time.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58475#Comment_58475

Not so sure everyone sees eye to eye on this one, a fix might come in the form of an undo..

You are correct. I've developed a work flow that depends upon the auto-save feature. However, deletions from the auto-save (right) side shouldn't have any effect on named saves on the left.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/58475#Comment_58475

Not so sure everyone sees eye to eye on this one, a fix might come in the form of an undo..

A few days ago, I too had "cleaned up" the junk on the right-hand side, and it deleted my named ones on the left!!! A BUG in my view.

I think Logos4 needs a bunch of extra flags or settings to turn some of the automatic stuff off, or not as extreme as at present. Layout save is one, sync is another, history, there are many.

The Logos4 application is trying too hard to do everything automatically (without user control), and its not making everyone happy.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126551#Comment_126551

Not so sure everyone sees eye to eye on this one, a fix might come in the form of an undo..

A few days ago, I too had "cleaned up" the junk on the right-hand side, and it deleted my named ones on the left!!! A BUG in my view.

Yes, that sounds like a bug. Did you report it?

I ignore the stuff on the right-hand side except the Now layout if I want to save it and name it. I'm sure the rest don't take up much space, so it's not worth the trouble to go through and delete them if the list is just going to fill up again. Especially if I run the risk of deleting one of my saved layouts.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126794#Comment_126794

Yes, that sounds like a bug. Did you report it?

It's by design, we've complained about it before. The left hand part of the menu basically contains shortcuts to the righthand part, so if you delete something from the right, it will go from the left as well.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126803#Comment_126803

we've complained about it before.

I'm still complaining. [:)]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126803#Comment_126803

Yes, that sounds like a bug. Did you report it?

It's by design, we've complained about it before. The left hand part of the menu basically contains shortcuts to the righthand part, so if you delete something from the right, it will go from the left as well.

Yes, but there have been plenty of "by design" things that we've complained about and they've listened to us and decided to change the design when they realized it was flawed or difficult to use. I'm still hoping they'll do that for a few more things (like reorganizing the File menu, and fixing the way it's so easy to accidentally click on the red X and delete a collection when scrolling through the list of them). While it doesn't trip me up personally, because I never try to delete those items from the right-hand side, this feature design is in the category of unintended negative consequences, and I really do feel they should revisit it and consider changing the design.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126885#Comment_126885

Yes, that sounds like a bug. Did you report it?

It's by design, we've complained about it before. The left hand part of the menu basically contains shortcuts to the righthand part, so if you delete something from the right, it will go from the left as well.

Yes, but there have been plenty of "by design" things that we've complained about and they've listened to us and decided to change the design when they realized it was flawed or difficult to use. I'm still hoping they'll do that for a few more things (like reorganizing the File menu, and fixing the way it's so easy to accidentally click on the red X and delete a collection when scrolling through the list of them). While it doesn't trip me up personally, because I never try to delete those items from the right-hand side, this feature design is in the category of unintended negative consequences, and I really do feel they should revisit it and consider changing the design.

[Y]