Dracula Comes to Our Local Bible?
I don't get it.
I have no problems with anyone wanting Oscar Wilder's collection or Bram Stoker's Dracula. Just not in this setting!
I do have a problem with a BIBLE software company offering it in the collection. Apparently these begin the 67th and beyond books?
I know the Perseus Collection is not technically Bible; and Beowulf is not Bible. But, there was research value to them. These? Not so much.
just so the brothers Pritchett know, I have received refunds on the few items I had purchased within the past 30 days, and, I cancelled the over $600 worth of pre-pub and Community Pricing resources.
In my not so humble opinion, this has gone too far, and goes beyond the usual "We are a business" cry. Obviously, they are a business first, and, I have had it. I have tried to believe the issues I have with Logos are "misunderstandings" and personal issues. But, this seems to be crossing the line as far as I am concerned. Just as I would be upset if I went to the local Christian bookstore and saw Batman and Star Wars books included in the Bible, so I am upset by the inclusion of these detractory "resources" in my Bible.
As with any company there are fanboys out there, and the inclusion of The Perseus Collection will be thrown in my face; let me explain the difference: Perseus is indeed a valuable research and teaching tool. The Oscar Wilde and Dracula resources are bloat and only make updates and indexing more annoying.
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While I was also surprised by this move, there are customers who just read at leisure.
For completely other reasons I'm trying to decide which few pre-pubs to cancel. I notice that when I worry and think really hard about what to cancel, I make good decisions. A year ago I used to ask for help on forums but some reacted negatively about me having a hard time to decide, so I've stopped asking for help publicly. Instead I have started a Faithlife group: Creating a budget and cancelling orders.
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I can't really understand this response Batman. I'm not defending the inclusion of Dracula, but I guess I tend to use/view Logos not much differently to Amazon, though Logos tends to be more conscious of the need to keep a more hands-on approach to its customers that I appreciate. I also appreciate the integrity often shown. But the sales hype and the salesmanship in general tend to throw me in the corner of seeing it as a business rather than a 'Christian business'. I also realize that there is a need to represent different viewpoints etc, but I personally couldn't run a business quite so ecumenically. That all said, when I see Dracula, etc, I simply ignore it--it's not something I'm going to purchase, and I wonder why anyone would spend good money one a resource that could be read (and searched) through an internet browser whenever one chooses. Presumably they'll create a separate label for these kinds of works eventually anyway, as they did with Noet.
But why are people purchasing these resources--makes no sense to me. I guess you'd rather support a company that wishes to maintain a more or less evangelical/biblical approach to software? If that is your reasoning, than I can appreciate that, though to me the very diversity of Logos is to me a strength, despite my other concerns.
If it was Mein Kampf or The Protocols of the Elders of Sion I'd have a few things to say, but Dracula might be useful to Arts students, and those Arts students are going to help pay for features I want. Plus, I dare say Logos sells theology books that I'd consider far more dangerous than a piece of fiction like Dracula.
If you don't like it, ignore it. No one is forcing you to buy.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
Denise, what do You think of John Goldingay as an author for lay OT commentaries?:
Dracula's a little pussy-cat compared to Old Testament scholars!
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I have no problems with anyone wanting Oscar Wilder's collection or Bram Stoker's Dracula. Just not in this setting!
Dracula is actually relevant in biblical studies. 95 hits in my library. Here are a couple of the most relevant:
I personally didn't choose to order it, because I'm probably not going to study it, but I have no problems with it being available in Logos. If I read it for fun someday (which it's conceivable I might) I probably wouldn't do so in Logos, though. I'd get it free in Kindle format.
The Oscar Wilde and Dracula resources are bloat and only make updates and indexing more annoying.
It doesn't affect your updates and indexing if you don't order it. Those who do want it will be willing to take the minor hit to their updates and indexing.
It's not such a big deal that they're going down this road, in my opinion, but it annoys me that they haven't done a better job segregating it. They've done this with Vyrso resources...not sure why Noet gets mingled in there. It seems like a very poor and rude marketing mechanism.
I do not want to see Noet resources in Logos. I don't want them to show up on my Logos home screen. I don't want them cluttering the website when I'm searching for a resource.
I feel ready to break into Dr. Seuss prose.
As it happens, I have no idea why we're offering Dracula in particular at this moment.
But I do know that we're adding a huge amount of literature to the system, both because of interest from Logos users and in preparation for a larger launch of Noet.com, which doesn't have its own store yet (hence releases via Logos.com). (One of my goals is that we can eventually offer a destination link for every reference in "A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature" from Eerdmans.)
Logos is a large library, and our customers use it for everything from personal Bible study to sermon preparation to writing academic papers. Our goal is to offer as much content as we can; each users can choose to add to their library the content that's useful to them.
I have to admit to being a little surprised by this feedback, since I agree that there's probably more 'danger' in some of the 'biblical' books than in classic fiction -- because it's labeled fiction, where bad theology is not!
But I always appreciate the feedback, and we will keep it in mind as we continue to grow the library.
-- Bob
I totally agree, Bob!:
there's probably more 'danger' in some of the 'biblical' books than in classic fiction -- because it's labeled fiction, where bad theology is not!
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I totally agree, Bob!:
there's probably more 'danger' in some of the 'biblical' books than in classic fiction -- because it's labeled fiction, where bad theology is not!
I couldn't agree more!!!!
Plus, coming from a guy who uses "Batman" as his screen/nickname, it just doesn't make sense. He's "complaining" (for lack of better terms - if you find a better one that describes his action let me know), that he's got a problem (is upset) with a Christian Bible Software/Bookstore selling this type of books, because they will be "in his Bible" (I don't see how), yet he doesn't have a problem being a Christian and using the nickname "Batman" to float around posting comments in the forum. So it's ok for a Christian to use "Batman" or "Dracula" as a nickname but is not ok for a Christian Bible Software/Bookstore to sell books about Batman or Dracula? Inconsistent to say the least.
Suggestion #1: Don't buy the book (And even if you buy it it will not be "in your Bible" whatever you meant by that).
Suggestion #2: Don't take this personal, it's just an observation to point out that maybe you're the one "crossing the line" misjudging why certain books are being sold in Logos.
Anyway, nothing personal, but I think you, as a Christian (in order to be consistent), should change your nickname first, before pointing out to Logos that they cannot sell Dracula books in their business. Which quite honestly, you can wear any super hero nickname you want. I really don't care, I think it's got nothing to do with whether you are a Christian or not (see my point???).
On the other hand, maybe "Batman" doesn't like Dracula because it may mean he's now got a little bit of competition...LOL...[;)]
Anyway, again, don't take it personal, but yes, you are being inconsistent Batman, if not ask Robin, he'll tell you...[:P]
Blessings!
DAL
But I always appreciate the feedback, and we will keep it in mind as we continue to grow the library.
-- Bob
Please continue growing the library [Y]
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(One of my goals is that we can eventually offer a destination link for every reference in "A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature" from Eerdmans.)
Fantastic! The sooner the better.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
(One of my goals is that we can eventually offer a destination link for every reference in "A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature" from Eerdmans.)Fantastic! The sooner the better.
Absolutely, eh?! *smile* Psalm 29:11
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I don't get it.
Batman doesn't like Dracula. Now that is novel.
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I do have a problem with a BIBLE software company offering it in the collection. Apparently these begin the 67th and beyond books?
I assume you are aware that Logos announced that they were offering Noet - a version of the software aimed at Greek and Latin scholars, literature etc.? And that some Bible software users who home school children are pleased with some of the offerings that the strictly Bible studies users have no use for?
The Oscar Wilde and Dracula resources are bloat and only make updates and indexing more annoying.
If you have not purchased them they have no effect on you. I agree that it will be nice when Noet grows sufficiently to be more segregated from the Logos/Verbum marketing. But then, again, I would like to see the ministerial support materials in Logos more separated from the Biblical and theology materials simply because they are not where I wish to invest my resources.
But, this seems to be crossing the line as far as I am concerned.
If I recall correctly, Libronix was the first version that Logos tried (not very successfully) to market as a broader library solution rather than strictly a Bible study software. It's not as if we were unaware of the secular market as a goal. If the profits from the secular market increases their ability to develop some of the features I still need in Logos - more power to them.
there are fanboys out there
Luckily I am the wrong gender to ever be accused of this[:P] However, I can share with you the wish for an improved marketing website that gets me to the resources I want while sharing with the "fanboys" the joy that Logos is finally achieving one of the owners' long-term dreams.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
At first I wondered about this offering but I see it as a very important offering after a brief search on theology and dracula, we find some are using it a s religious text and others are seeing it as telling important things for theology. I have long seen the myth of vampirism as a perversion of the Christian doctrine by competing/traditional religions.
Vampires come out at night from their tombs... Christians worshiped in tombs and came forth.
V. drank blood and had eternal life... Christians Eucharist is a consumption of blood and body.
Even the stake to the heart is an interesting parallel to Christ's death being confirmed by a pierced heart.
Now I am not going to try to draw theology from fiction, but it seems logical enough to have people spreading rumours of Christians... to scare others away, growing them into monsters, which turned to something else after the people actually became Christian. The sad fact that SOME are using Dracula as a religious text is an important enough reason to have it accessible in Logos to refute such misguided ideas.
-Dan
Now Dan. I assume you already consider Mithras procedures discussed in Logos (which have a vastly closer parallel and are indeed used to argue the origen of Christian claims). Dracula was like Jesus' wife ... centuries later.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
I have read a book on the origins of the Christian religion.... It was entitled The Egyptian Origin of Christianity, Lisa Ann Bargeman.. I appreciate her argument and will admit similarities and possible influence on Church practices. As for her idea Christianity more or less comes completely from the religions of Egypt I don't buy that. I know that Mithrasism is Persian in origin and popular among the roman army. Again I would say there could be influences in Christian art and form of worship but I don't buy it is the primary source either. Others have argued there are strong Jewish traditions that have found there way in the church (which is very logical). Egypt/Persia/Israel all share and borrow from each others culture. Since Christianity came out of the Jewish faith I would expect many things to be shared, I also would be very surprised if Egyptian/Persian culture had not influenced Judaism. In the same way western Christians often have Christmas trees. This pagan practice has been baptized and brought into the Church. But it is a far cry to say Christmas is totally pagan. Yes it has elements coming out many sources... but we have taken these elements to celebrate the advent of God coming into the world, enfleshed in Jesus. This is quickly falling into a theological debate though which as interesting as it might be and I do believe we could do civilly is against Logos forum guidelines.
-Dan
Actually, Dracula is a classic novel, and I suspect you are judging it by today's R rated movie adaptations. It is not a bad read, and I saw in it clearly the struggle of good against evil. I am not saying it is a Christian allegory. It is not, but there are scenes in the novel that can be applied that way.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Interestingly enough there are only about 5 story lines that every book and movie are based around. One of them is more or less allegory of Jesus. MOST of the movies that make it big are about a man who against staggering odds, and at great personal costs persists in saving the world. Except of course, Jesus already knew how the story would end, and that the opposition would not ever overcome Him.
http://www.1001beforeyoudie.com/1001_books_uk.html is the original source for Milfords book list 
It is an interesting list - though there are a few titles I don't think I'll read. The titles by anthony burgess for instance.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
I, too, am concerned by this inclusion. A previous poster asks whether it is glorifying to God - great question - in fact the only question we should be considering.
My main concern is that while, superficially, the arguments seem to go like this: More books like this give us more money which will give us logos users more features (including some we've been waiting in vain for, for years).
However, I see a flaw in this argument which I've not heard anyone mention yet.
It is due to the inclusion of books such as these (Dracula) that may (and possibly have) put publishers off wanting to allow their content to be published electronically by Logos.
Many books from publishing houses that users have been clamouring for years now *may* be less likely to introduced or have contracts renewed (e.g. Banner of Truth, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Journals).
It is amazing in so many years of being a Logos customer and owning nearly 16 thousand Logos resources that I have never had any pre-pub "Order updates" until the last 18 months talking about removing books from collections or items that are no longer on sale (MacArthur etc). It seems interesting that this happened concurrently with the introduction of Noet and resources like 'Dracula'. No direct evidence but seems clear in my mind!
While some in this thread have said - "Well just don't buy it then and it won't affect you', I hope I have shown that actually even by not buying the fact it has been put on, MAY have an effect on you and the books you will be able to (or not) purchase in the future.
Hope that makes sense,
James
PS I ask Bob when he started the company way back when, was his original purpose to publish any old book or to publish bible texts and those books which would exist to help in the study of the Bible. Has the company been rolling too fast and perhaps brakes need to be applied and reconsider the purpose of the business - I know Bob would say that Logos is a business and thus exists to make money, but WHY is that money to be made - to invest in what?
It should also be said that the book is also ridiculously expensive, it requires next to no tagging, electronic texts of the public domain text are freely available and it is one short book.
In my view it is bringing community pricing into disrepute and shows an ugly dash for cash by Logos through taking advantage of what is white frankly bizarre customer behaviour rooted in a business model based on trust.
And before people say there is no profit in community pricing, there obviously is both in covering overheads and creating assets that can be exploited profitably in the future.
It is amazing in so many years of being a Logos customer and owning nearly 16 thousand Logos resources that I have never had any pre-pub "Order updates" until the last 18 months talking about removing books from collections or items that are no longer on sale (MacArthur etc). It seems interesting that this happened concurrently with the introduction of Noet and resources like 'Dracula'. No direct evidence but seems clear in my mind!
I think that has more to do with your mind.[;)]
Most removed books come from CP collections. The simple explanation is almost certainly that Logos believed the book was Public Domain, and then it turns out it wasn't, so they have to remove it. The few times it happens in prepub, I would imagine the reason is that the publisher thought he had all rights, and then it turns out he didn't have the electronic rights. Or something else of that nature. Nothing to do with Dracula. (If a publisher objected to Dracula, he wouldn't remove one book out of a collection, he would remove the whole collection, as well as all other collections.)
As for whole publishers leaving, that happened in the past as well. OUP and Liturgical Press, for example. It ought, statistically, to happen more often now, since they work with so many more publishers, but my impression is that it instead happens more seldom. In fact, both of those publishers are now back. Publisher problems are always far more likely to be due to legal and financial causes, than ideological ones. Few publishers mind where their books are sold, as long as they are and they get paid.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
There are a number of discussions around the inclusion of the Dracula resource - see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/83338.aspx for an example
But I haven't seen any mention of it being included in a collection. Which collection is that?
The Oscar Wilde and Dracula resources are bloat and only make updates and indexing more annoying.
Which goes back to the question of whether they are sold separately or included in a wider collection where a user may want the other resources but not these particular ones. Hence my question about what collection they are being included in.