Hebrew Audio Pronunciation: *This* is how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced?
http://www.screencast.com/t/ITUhaWXIuiTA
Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition), or it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?). It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.
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Quotes to make clear this is not a Jewish tradition problem only, before I make my suggestion.
From an Orthodox forum:
"The sound of the word seems to phonetically mimic the action of inhaling and exhaling. When we take a very deep breath and exhale, it seems to sound like: yaaaw- heeee (YAHWEH). I was taught this by a very pious and wise elderly Orthodox christian. This would mean we recite His name everytime we breath. It also gives an additional understanding of the psalm which says' 'let everything that have breath praise the Lord' (psalm 150.6)"
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For various reasons, the divine name eventually became too sacred to be pronounced in Second Temple Judaism. I have not kept upon the scholarship on this question over the past twenty years, and the books I owned that addressed this question have been donated to seminary libraries; but I believe I am on safe grounds to state that by the time of Jesus the divine name had been silenced in public discourse, always replaced by the circumlocution Adonai. That this happened is not unimportant or irrelevant. I suggest that it was a necessary economic preparation for the Incarnation in Jesus Christ. God silences the divine name to prepare Israel for the embodiment of his name: "Before Abraham was, I AM." With the exaltation of Christ as Lord, YHWH is in a very real sense replaced by the name Jesus:
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Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
We do not speak the ineffable name given to Israel because this ineffable name has now become nameable in a new way in Jesus Christ and functionally replaced by the Trinitarian naming, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, into which we are baptized. Hence I believe that we should continue the longstanding tradition of speaking "Lord" whenever we come across the Tetragrammaton. We do so not only out of respect to our Jewish brothers and sisters but also out of respect to the history of salvation.=============
My personal preference would be a setting on what we wished to have Logos do when it hits the Tetragrammaton - pronounce it, spell it or replace it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
http://www.screencast.com/t/ITUhaWXIuiTA
Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition), or it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?). It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.
You could say "הַשֶׁם" (hashem, "the name") as the Jews do without offense.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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[Y] That's a great suggestion, MJ.! [:)]:
MJ. Smith said:My personal preference would be a setting on what we wished to have Logos do when it hits the Tetragrammaton - pronounce it, spell it or replace it.
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George's and MJ's suggestions sound viable. Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah". [:)]
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I don't want to put words in Dr. Buth's mouth, but I think the issue had less to do with risking offence as it did the fact that we don't KNOW how to vocalize the Tetragrammaton. 'Yahweh' is one popular scholarly reconstruction, but there are no vowels for the kethiv in the text, just vowels that mark the perpetual qere of 'Adonai'. I don't think having no sound clip would be a good solution, since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't. If Dr. Buth had wanted to record the reconstruction 'Yahweh', I'd have been fine with that, but I think what he recorded was fine as well. In scholarly literature, the Name is often written as YHWH, without any attempt at vocalization, and I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.
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Vincent Setterholm said:
I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.
Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.
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MJ
Third attempt. iPad shut down on me?
I appreciated very much this interesting post and the reference to and explanation of Jn 8:58.
Thank you for the time you spend here.
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Rosie Perera said:Vincent Setterholm said:
I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.
Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.
BTW: What did Randall do?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Rosie Perera said:Vincent Setterholm said:
I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.
Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.
BTW: What did Randall do?
If you listen to the video I posted a link to in my first post, you'll have the answer to that question. I also mentioned it in the text of that post.
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Rosie Perera said:
If you listen to the video I posted a link to in my first post, you'll have the answer to that question. I also mentioned it in the text of that post.
You remind me of a teacher I had in Jr H.S. who would always say "Look it up in the dictionary." OK, so he spelled it out.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You remind me of a teacher I had in Jr H.S. who would always say "Look it up in the dictionary." OK, so he spelled it out.
I had one of those too... except that the spelling (rather than the definition) was the issue in question. How do you look up a word when you don't know how to spell it?
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George Somsel said:
You remind me of a teacher I had in Jr H.S. who would always say "Look it up in the dictionary." OK, so he spelled it out.
Good for you! You get a gold star, Georgie!
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alabama24 said:George Somsel said:
You remind me of a teacher I had in Jr H.S. who would always say "Look it up in the dictionary." OK, so he spelled it out.
I had one of those too... except that the spelling (rather than the definition) was the issue in question. How do you look up a word when you don't know how to spell it?
You guess then if you're wrong, guess again. [I didn't often need to look it up]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie Perera said:George Somsel said:
You remind me of a teacher I had in Jr H.S. who would always say "Look it up in the dictionary." OK, so he spelled it out.
Good for you! You get a gold star, Georgie!
Whee !
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie Perera said:
Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition)
To not pronounce it is to defy YHWH.
Rosie Perera said:it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?)
It really irks me when people pronounce the Name as Yahweh but turn around and pronounce the waaw (w) as a vav (v) everywhere else. Hello, a little internal consistency, please.
Rosie Perera said:It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.
I actually know quite a few people who spell it out in conversation.
I am personally convinced that the way it should be pronounced (using my transliteration method) is Yahohwaah. Actually, I think the pronunciation depends on the context, and this pronunciation covers most contexts.
This issue is just one of numerous reasons I would have been happy if this thing had never shipped.
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Vincent Setterholm said:
Since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.
Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up ... and the percentage of Christians who minimize the use of the name is significant.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
I am personally convinced that the way it should be pronounced (using my transliteration method) is Yahohwaah.
I was wondering how long it would take for you to put yourself forward as our own local expert on the subject. [;)] Logos should have consulted with you first before producing this. [:P] (Or not producing it, as you would have preferred.)
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And all this issue thanks to the Jews of old who disrespected God and rebelled against Him in every way possible, yet they made a big deal out of not wanting to pronounce His name because they thought it was too sacred...irony of ironies!!!
My strong conviction is that if we love God, fear Him and obey Him then it's totally fine to pronounce His "name." After all, we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels so nobody can really know how to pronounce it. Imagine if somebody adopted the same senseless idea the Jews of old had and over the centuries we only had JSS was the Son of God and then try to reconstruct the name JSS with JUSUS or JOJOS or something. I think that's more offensive and disrespectful. Anyway, let's just leave it at that, we wouldn't want any Jews "to get offended," though it should be clear is not their fault, is the Jews of old's fault that we are even talking about this and having issues with this... [8-)] Thanks again to them for this precious issue on the Hebrew Pronunciation tool!
DAL
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DAL said:
the same senseless idea
DAL you know better than to be
to quote yourself. This sort of nonsense belongs on Christian Discourse (or preferably nowhere).DAL said:offensive and disrespectful
DAL said:After all, we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels so nobody can really know how to pronounce it.
If you know anything about church history you know this is not analogous. Consider the iconclastic debate and the distinction between between the incarnate and the non-incarnate made then.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Believe me that the Jews would not be offended, but they wouldn't do it themselves.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie Perera said:
Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah".
My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo because it is true 'there is no God like Jehovah' because Jehovah was never a name spoken by Hebrew speakers." (it is an editorial combination of the tetragrammaton and the vowels from Adonai)
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MJ. Smith said:Vincent Setterholm said:
Since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.
Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up ... and the percentage of Christians who minimize the use of the name is significant.
I think HaShem would be the best solution since it is clear substitute for YHWH (and as far as I know) it is not a biblical word - what would not work with Adonai - since it would confuse with Adonai actually used in some places of the Bible. Just my 2 cents.
Bohuslav
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David Thomas said:Rosie Perera said:
Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah".
My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo because it is true 'there is no God like Jehovah' because Jehovah was never a name spoken by Hebrew speakers." (it is an editorial combination of the tetragrammaton and the vowels from Adonai)
I had never heard that one before. Hopefully I won't hear it again.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Thomas said:
My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo
Eww, that's the worst rendition of that song I've ever seen/heard! A woman who looks like a "church lady" in a skirt suit and high heels singing with a rock band? That just looks weird, and then the way she moves around in that getup, poking her fingers at the air, etc. She just looks so wrong for the part, and I don't like her singing particularly either.
I first heard "Days of Elijah" on the CD Revival in Belfast by Robin Mark (the song is by him), and that will always been the version I prefer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Tpnytkxaw. Can't say the theology is great, but I love the song.
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Rosie Perera said:David Thomas said:
My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo
Eww, that's the worst rendition of that song I've ever seen/heard! A woman who looks like a "church lady" in a skirt suit and high heels singing with a rock band? That just looks weird, and then the way she moves around in that getup, poking her fingers at the air, etc. She just looks so wrong for the part, and I don't like her singing particularly either.
I first heard "Days of Elijah" on the CD Revival in Belfast by Robin Mark (the song is by him), and that will always been the version I prefer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Tpnytkxaw. Can't say the theology is great, but I love the song.
I agree that the other version was absolutely terrible. This one was marginally better. I don't care for any religiously themed music that has the pot-bangers front and center. Also, it's repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:Vincent Setterholm said:
Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.
Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up
Perhaps in the US where you have a significant Jewish minority, but certainly not here. I learnt about the replacement with Lord early on, and Adonai somewhat later, but I can't remember ever hearing about HaShem until a few years ago.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:I think HaShem would be the best solution since it is clear substitute for YHWH
It's supposed to be Biblical Hebrew pronunciation. I've never heard that HaShem was used in that way in Biblical times. In fact, I'm under the impression that it isn't normally used for Bible or liturgical readings today either, but for normal conversations.
I haven't heard it, but it sounds to me like the best option was used.
DAL said:the Jews of old who disrespected God and rebelled against Him in every way possible
Just like the rest of us then.
DAL said:they thought it was too sacred
So do most Christians, including the authors of the New Testament.
DAL said:it's totally fine to pronounce His "name."
You can't really pronounce it, since we don't know for sure what the vowels are. You can only mispronounce it.
DAL said:we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels
Nobody took away the vowels from the Tetragrammaton. Hebrew didn't have vowels in those days. Greek does. Though you may want to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra.
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Right on. Amazing how people simply don't consider that as a fact. Mohammad's father's name was Abdullah - an Arabic conjunction of two words, Abed and Allah meaning the worshiper of God, a Christian name in origin.fgh said:It's what Arabic speaking Christians have been calling God since long before there were any Muslims.
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George Somsel said:
I agree that the other version was absolutely terrible. This one was marginally better. I don't care for any religiously themed music that has the pot-bangers front and center. Also, it's repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.
sugar!!! I was going to ask you to endorse my arrangement of Psalm 136 - guess I'll need to find somebody else.
I take it that you will be having a word with David in due course?
tootle pip
Mike
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Mike Binks said:
I take it that you will be having a word with David in due course?
The "sweet singer of Israel"? I don't think he's around now. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Mike Binks said:
I take it that you will be having a word with David in due course?
The "sweet singer of Israel"? I don't think he's around now.
"...I believe in the communion of saints..." in 'due course' of course.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Has anyone else noted that sometimes the word being pronounced seems like the speaker is just speaking the letters of the word. For instance listen to "rejoice" in Psalm 23 vice other words around it. Not sure what to make of the "pronunciation."
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Donald McNeeley said:
Has anyone else noted that sometimes the word being pronounced seems like the speaker is just speaking the letters of the word. For instance listen to "rejoice" in Psalm 23 vice other words around it. Not sure what to make of the "pronunciation."
Rejoice? You do, of course realize that the English word used in translation depends upon the translation being used. What Hebrew word do you reference?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sorry if I was confusing ... in Ps 23, when I ask for the lemma for rejoice to be pronounced, it sounds like the speaker is saying the letters of the lemma ... this is different than the way it is done for other words ... it sounds similar to how YAHWEH is pronounced.
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The lemma for "rejoice" seems to be pronounced as if the letters are spoken, similiar to teh way "YAHWEH" is pronounced.
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Donald McNeeley said:
The lemma for "rejoice" seems to be pronounced as if the letters are spoken, similiar to teh way "YAHWEH" is pronounced.
Yes, I understood that from the beginning, but "rejoice" is an English word which is not used in the translations I happened to check. What is the HEBREW word?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sorry, I meant "restore" the Hebrew word is שׁוב. Another forum member sent me this information that explains all.
"Yes. if you get down to the bottom of the 'information' page, there is a brief explanation of this. Dr. Buth felt very strongly that people shouldn't be learning forms that are not real words, in essence internalizing gibberish. For example, if a verb only occurs in the Niphal or Hitpael stem, taking the three root radicals and putting Qal stem-like vowels on it is often producing something that isn't real Hebrew. In these cases, scholars nowadays generally refer to the root by its three radicals. A similar situation can happen with hollow verbs or geminates. If in the Qal, one of the radicals drops out, putting vowels on all three radicals will generally produce something that is not a real word.
So there ends up being about 300 words, give or take, where the lemma is read off by the radicals, rather than creating a fake word. We did actually record alternate forms from BDB and other sources that follow a different model, vocalizing the root radicals - the thought being that at some point we might want to support getting at audio from lexicon headwords, and we'll need recordings of those forms to accomplish that, despite some of those forms being not real Hebrew."
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Donald McNeeley said:
Sorry, I meant "restore" the Hebrew word is שׁוב. Another forum member sent me this information that explains all.
"Yes. if you get down to the bottom of the 'information' page, there is a brief explanation of this. Dr. Buth felt very strongly that people shouldn't be learning forms that are not real words, in essence internalizing gibberish. For example, if a verb only occurs in the Niphal or Hitpael stem, taking the three root radicals and putting Qal stem-like vowels on it is often producing something that isn't real Hebrew. In these cases, scholars nowadays generally refer to the root by its three radicals. A similar situation can happen with hollow verbs or geminates. If in the Qal, one of the radicals drops out, putting vowels on all three radicals will generally produce something that is not a real word.
So there ends up being about 300 words, give or take, where the lemma is read off by the radicals, rather than creating a fake word. We did actually record alternate forms from BDB and other sources that follow a different model, vocalizing the root radicals - the thought being that at some point we might want to support getting at audio from lexicon headwords, and we'll need recordings of those forms to accomplish that, despite some of those forms being not real Hebrew."
That clarifies the matter. Since you apparently already have your answer, I'll leave it at that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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