Old version of Pseudepigrapha vs. Charlesworth's newer version?

Milkman
Milkman Member Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭
edited November 2024 in English Forum

Can anyone tell me if there is much of a difference between Charles' Pseudepigrapha and Charlesworth's version?

mm.

I was in dialogue with a Logos sr, but unfortunately Logos is experiencing some issues. Gee that sounds like a common issue these days.

Comments

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭

    Charlesworth is better in my mind...

    31 O thou who thunderest from on high, blessed heavenly one, who hast the Cherubim 2 as thy throne, I pray thee give me a short respite from mine unerring oracle, 3 for my soul within me is weary. 4 Nay, why did my heart again flutter, and why is my soul, 5 lashed with a spur from within, compelled to announce my message 6 to all? So again I will proclaim all 7 that God bids me proclaim unto men.
    8 Ye men that bear the form that God did mould in his image, 9 why do ye wander at random and walk not in the straight path, 10 being ever mindful of the eternal Creator? 11 There is one sovereign God, ineffable, whose dwelling is in heaven, 12 self sprung, unseen yet seeing all himself alone. 13 No mason’s hand did make him, nor does some model formed from gold 14 or ivory by the varied skill of man represent him. 15 But he, himself Eternal, hath revealed himself 16 as One who is and was before, yea and shall be hereafter. 17 For who, being mortal, can gaze on God with his eyes? 18 Or who could bear even to hear the mere name 19 of the mighty, heavenly God, the World-Ruler? 20 Who by his word created all, both heaven and sea 21 and tireless sun and moon at full 22 and twinkling stars, mighty mother Ocean, 23 springs and rivers, fire immortal, days and nights. 24 Yea it is God Himself who fashioned four-lettered Adam, 25 the first man fashioned, who completes in his name 26 morn and dusk, antarctic and arctic. 27 He too both established the fashion of the form of mortal men 28 and made the beasts and things that creep and fly. 29 Ye do not worship nor fear God, but wander at haphazard, 30 bowing down to serpents and doing sacrifice to cats, 31 and to dumb idols and stone statues of mortal wights, 32 and sitting down before the doors of godless temples 33 ye weary the God who ever is, who guards all 34, taking your delight in miserable stones, forgetting the judgement 35 of the Eternal Saviour Who created heaven and earth. 36 O race that delights in blood, crafty, wicked race of godless men, 37 liars and double-tongued, immoral, 38 adulterous, idolatrous, of wily devices, 39 within whose heart is evil, a frenzied spur, 40 snatching for yourselves, having a shameless mind! 41 For no man of wealth endowed with goods will give any part to another, 42 but miserable meanness shall be among all mortals, 43 and faith they shall never keep at all, 44 but many widowed women shall have other secret lovers for lucre’s sake, 45 and gaining husbands shall not keep hold of the rope of life.


    Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2004), 378–379.

    THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES

    Book 3


    FROM THE SECOND BOOK CONCERNING GOD

    The inspiration of the Sibyl

    * Blessed, heavenly one, who thunders on high, who have the cherubim
    as your throne, I entreat you to give a little rest
    to me who have prophesied unfailing truth, for my heart is tired within.
    But why does my heart shake again? and why is my spirit
    5* lashed by a whip, compelled from within to proclaim
    an oracle to all? But I will utter everything again,
    as much as God bids me say to men.


    Praise of God and denunciation of idolatry

    Men, who have the form which God molded in his image,
    why do you wander in vain, and not walk the straight path
    10* ever mindful of the immortal creator?
    There is one God, sole ruler, ineffable, who lives in the sky,
    self-begotten, invisible, who himself sees all things.
    No sculptor’s hand made him, nor does a cast
    of gold or ivory reveal him, by the crafts of man,
    15* but he himself, eternal, revealed himself
    as existing now, and formerly and again in the future.
    For who, being mortal, is able to see God with eyes?
    or who will be able even to hear only
    the name of the great heavenly God who rules the world?
    20* who created everything by a word, heaven and sea,
    untiring sun, full moon,
    shining stars, strong mother Tethys,
    springs and rivers, imperishable fire, days, nights.
    Indeed it is God himself who fashioned Adam, of four letters,
    25* the first-formed man, fulfilling by his name
    east and west and south and north.
    He himself fixed the shape of the form of men
    and made wild beasts and serpents and birds.
    You neither revere nor fear God, but wander to no purpose,
    30* worshiping snakes and sacrificing to cats,
    speechless idols, and stone statues of people;
    and sitting in front of the doors at godless temples
    you do not fear the existing God who guards all things.
    You rejoice in the evil of stones, forgetting the judgment
    35 of the immortal savior who created heaven and earth.
    Alas for a race which rejoices in blood, a crafty and evil race
    of impious and false double-tongued men and immoral
    adulterous idol worshipers who plot deceit.
    There is wickedness in their breasts, a frenzy raging within.
    40* They ravage booty for themselves and have a shameless spirit.
    For no one who is rich and has possessions will give a share to another
    but there will be terrible wickedness among all mortals.
    They will have no fidelity at all. Many widowed women
    will love other men secretly for gain;
    45 and those who have husbands will not keep hold of the rope of life.


    James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 362–363.

    But not only is the translation clearer there is massive amounts of introductory material to each chapter....


    THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES, BOOK 3


    Introduction

    The third Sibyl is the only book of the collection that has received extensive scholarly attention. The composite nature of the book has been recognized by virtually all scholars,2 but the fragmentation of the book proposed by Geffcken is certainly excessive. In fact we may distinguish three stages in the book:4
    1. The main corpus: verses 97–349 and 489–829.
    2. Oracles against various nations: 350–488.
    3. Verses 1–96, which probably constitute the conclusion of a different book. One verse (776) must be regarded as a Christian interpolation.


    1. The main corpus

    In the main corpus of the book five oracles may be distinguished: (1) 97–161; (2) 162–95; (3) 196–294; (4) 545–656; (5) 657–808. The first of these, 97–161, stands apart from the rest of the book. It contains: (a) the fall of the tower of Babylon (97–104); (b) a euhemeristic account of the war of the Titans against Cronos and his sons (105–55); (c) a list of world empires (156–61).
    The description of the fall of the tower has been widely thought to be a fragment from a collection of oracles of a Babylonian sibyl, perhaps influenced by Berossus, but this theory has been soundly refuted by Nikiprowetzky. There is nothing in the Sibylline account that could not be developed from Genesis.


    James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 354.

    I gave you the starting sample which is 7 pages long....

    -Dan

  • Milkman
    Milkman Member Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭

    @ Dan:

    Yep big difference in language flow & it would seem intro's very helpful. - Thanks!

  • David Wilson
    David Wilson Member Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭

    R. H. Charles: Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament  (volume two of the above set): (with a separate apparatus)

    The Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament

    General Introduction (Charles)

    Primitive History Rewritten from the Standpoint of the Law—

    The Book of Jubilees (Charles)

    Sacred Legends—

    The Letter of Aristeas (Andrews)

    The Books of Adam and Eve (Wells)

    The Martyrdom of Isaiah (Charles)

    Apocalypses—

    1 Enoch (Charles)

    The Testaments of the XII Patriarchs (Charles)

    The Sibylline Oracles (Lanchester)

    The Assumption of Moses (Charles)

    2 Enoch, or the Book of the Secrets of Enoch (Forbes and Charles)

    2 Baruch, or the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (Charles)

    3 Baruch, or the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (Hughes)

    4 Ezra (Box)

    Psalms—

    The Psalms of Solomon (Gray)

    Ethics and Wisdom Literature—

    4 Maccabees (Townshend)

    Pirkē Aboth (Herford)

    The Story of Ahịḳar (Harris, Lewis, Conybeare).

    History—

    The Fragments of a Zadokite Work (Charles).

    General Index

    Charlesworth:  Volume One

    Contents

    Foreword  - George W. MacRae, S.J.

    Foreword for Christians  - James T. Cleland

    Foreword for Jews  - Samuel Sandmel

    Editor’s Preface  - James H. Charlesworth

    Board of Advisors

    Contributors

    Introduction for the General Reader  - James H. Charlesworth

    Explanation of Typographical and Reference Systems

    List of Abbreviations

    Documents

    Apocalyptic Literature And Related Works

    Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

    1 (Ethiopic Apocalypse of) Enoch (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - E. Isaac

    2 (Slavonic Apocalypse of) Enoch (Late First Century a.d.) with Appendix: 2 Enoch in Merilo Pravednoe - F. I. Andersen

    3 (Hebrew Apocalypse of) Enoch (Fifth to Sixth Century a.d.) - P. Alexander

    Sibylline Oracles (Second Century b.c.–Seventh Century a.d.) - J. J. Collins

    Treatise of Shem (First Century b.c.)  - J. H. Charlesworth

    Apocryphon of Ezekiel (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. R. Mueller and S. E. Robinson

    Apocalypse of Zephaniah (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - O. S. Wintermute

    The Fourth Book of Ezra (Late First Century a.d.)  - B. M. Metzger

    Greek Apocalypse of Ezra (Second to Ninth Century a.d.)  - M. E. Stone

    Vision of Ezra (Fourth to Seventh Century a.d.) - J. R. Mueller and G. A. Robbins

    Questions of Ezra (Date Unknown) - M. E. Stone

    Revelation of Ezra (prior to Ninth Century a.d.) - D. A. Fiensy

    Apocalypse of Sedrach (Second to Fifth Century a.d.) - S. Agourides

    2 (Syriac Apocalypse of) Baruch (early Second Century a.d.) - A. F. J. Klijn

    3 (Greek Apocalypse of) Baruch (First to Third Century a.d.) - H. E. Gaylord, Jr.

    Apocalypse of Abraham (First to Second Century a.d.) - R. Rubinkiewicz

    Apocalypse of Adam (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - G. MacRae

    Apocalypse of Elijah (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - O. S. Wintermute

    Apocalypse of Daniel (Ninth Century a.d.) - G. T. Zervos

    Testaments (Often With Apocalyptic Sections)

    Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

    Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (Second Century b.c.) - H. C. Kee

    Testament of Job (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R.P. Spittter

    Testaments of the Three Patriarchs:  Introduction - E. P. Sanders

    Testament of Abraham (First to Second Century a.d.) - E. P. Sanders

    Testament of Isaac (Second Century a.d.) - W. F. Stinespring

    Testament of Jacob (Second to Third Century a.d.?) - W. F. Stinespring

    Testament of Moses (First Century a.d.) - J. Priest

    Testament of Solomon (First to Third Century a.d.) - D. C. Duling

    Testament of Adam (Second to Fifth Century a.d.) - S. E. Robinson

    A Volume of Alternate Texts to those in the main volume 1

    Charlesworth: Volume Two

    Contents

    Foreword  - George W. MacRae, S.J.

    Foreword for Christians   - James T. Cleland

    Foreword for Jews - Samuel Sandmel

    Editor’s Preface - James H. Charlesworth

    Board of Advisors

    Contributors

    Introduction for the General Reader - James H. Charlesworth

    Explanation of Typographical and Reference Systems

    List of Abbreviations

    Documents

    Expansions of the "Old Testament" and Legends

    Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

    Letter of Aristeas (Third Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R. J. H. Shutt

    Jubilees (Second Century b.c.) - O. S. Wintermute

    Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (Second Century b.c.–Fourth Century a.d.) - M. A. Knibb

    Joseph and Aseneth (First Century b.c.–Second Century a.d.) - C. Burchard

    Life of Adam and Eve (First Century a.d.) - M. D. Johnson

    Pseudo-Philo (First Century a.d.) - D. J. Harrington

    The Lives of the Prophets (First Century a.d.) - D. R. A. Hare

    Ladder of Jacob (c. First Century a.d.) - H. G. Lunt

    4 Baruch (First to Second Century a.d.) - S. E. Robinson

    Jannes and Jambres (First to Third Century a.d.) - A. Pietersma and T. R. Lutz

    History of the Rechabites (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

    Eldad and Modad (prior to Second Century a.d.) - E. G. Martin

    History of Joseph (prior to Fourth Century a.d.) - G. T. Zervos

     

    Wisdom and Philosophical Literature

    Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

    Ahiqar (Seventh to Sixth Century b.c.) - J. M. Lindenberger

    3 Maccabees (First Century b.c.) - H. Anderson

    4 Maccabees (First Century a.d.) - H. Anderson

    Pseudo-Phocylides (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - P. W. van der Horst

    The Sentences of the Syriac Menander (Third Century a.d.) - T. Baarda

    Prayers, Psalms, And Odes

    Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

    More Psalms of David (Third Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth with J. A. Sanders

    Prayer of Manasseh (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

    Psalms of Solomon (First Century b.c.) - R. B. Wright

    Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (Second to Third Century a.d.) - D. R. Darnell and D. A. Fiensy

    Prayer of Joseph (First Century a.d.)  - J. Z. Smith

    Prayer of Jacob (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

    Odes of Solomon (Late First to Early Second Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

    Supplement

    Fragments of Lost Judeo-Hellenistic Works

    Editor’s Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

    General Introduction, with a Note on Alexander Polyhistor - J. Strugnell

    poetry

    Philo the Epic Poet (Third to Second Century b.c.) - H. Attridge

    Theodotus (Second to First Century b.c.) - F. Fallon

    oracle

    Orphica (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.)  - M. Lafargue

    drama

    Ezekiel the Tragedian (Second Century b.c.) - R. G. Robertson

    other

    Fragments of Pseudo-Greek Poets (Third to Second Century b.c.) - H. Attridge

    philosophy

    Aristobulus (Second Century b.c.) - A. Yarbro Collins

    chronography

    Demetrius the Chronographer (Third Century b.c.) - J. Hanson

    history

    Aristeas the Exegete (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

    Eupolemus (prior to First Century b.c.) - F. Fallon

    Pseudo-Eupolemus (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

    Cleodemus Malchus (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

    romance

    Artapanus (Third to Second Century b.c.) - J. J. Collins

    appendix :

    Pseudo-Hecataeus (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R. Doran

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The two are a bit of apples and oranges.  

    - Charlesworth tends to be more high level, and also includes more territory.

    - Charles is probably quoted far more, largely due to the inclusion of line-based commentary (OT apocrypha and pseudepigrpha).

    There's another one I like better (mentioned in your 2nd Temple Judaism thread).  It proceeds chronologically, introducing each PG and how it likely fit.  

    While you're up there waiting for snow flakes, we just got back from the Fiery Furnace (Utah) and our brains are toasted.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Milkman
    Milkman Member Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭

    Morning Denise, well it looks like we might have staved off old man winter for another month, but he's on his way. Save some of that brain heat till January and then send it northward. They're calling for an unusually cold winter here. What else is new on the lone prairie?

    By the way? what specific book were you referring to in my thread?

    mm

    Denise said:

    The two are a bit of apples and oranges.  

    - Charlesworth tends to be more high level, and also includes more territory.

    - Charles is probably quoted far more, largely due to the inclusion of line-based commentary (OT apocrypha and pseudepigrpha).

    There's another one I like better (mentioned in your 2nd Temple Judaism thread).  It proceeds chronologically, introducing each PG and how it likely fit.  

    While you're up there waiting for snow flakes, we just got back from the Fiery Furnace (Utah) and our brains are toasted.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lone prairie?  We wish! (The Eurovan is specially equipped to slow down on hills around here.)

    The volume was the one Ken mentioned: https://www.logos.com/product/15718/jewish-literature-between-the-bible-and-the-mishnah 

    It's especially useful where a writing clearly is in 'pieces' .... slowly incrementing over time (best example Sibylline Oracles).  The latter is an excellent example of modern judgment overlaying ancient judgment .... 'Gosh, early Christians would never fall for that one! It doesn't look anything like correct [todays] Christianity!'

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Milkman
    Milkman Member Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭

    I thought that was the book. Right now I'm going through Desilva's Introducing the apocrypha with a strong leaning toward two volumes in the Come And See books.

    Denise said:

    Lone prairie?  We wish! (The Eurovan is specially equipped to slow down on hills around here.)

    The volume was the one Ken mentioned: https://www.logos.com/product/15718/jewish-literature-between-the-bible-and-the-mishnah 

    It's especially useful where a writing clearly is in 'pieces' .... slowly incrementing over time (best example Sibylline Oracles).  The latter is an excellent example of modern judgment overlaying ancient judgment .... 'Gosh, early Christians would never fall for that one! It doesn't look anything like correct [todays] Christianity!'