Siddur[s] and other books on Jewish prayer
(When I happened to wish for a Siddur the other day in another thread, I was sure there already was a formal Suggestion for one, but it seems not, so I thought I'd better add one.)
We need a minimum of one [Hebrew/English] Siddur, as complete as possible, but preferably several, reflecting a wide variety of Jewish traditions. I leave the selection to others, better suited.
We also need books on Jewish prayer. Unless someone more knowledgeable has better ideas, I suggest
- Hayim Halevy Donin: To Pray as a Jew. A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service,
- Frédéric Manns: Jewish Prayer in the Time of Jesus, and
- Clemens Leonhard & Albert Gerhards: Jewish and Christian Liturgy and Worship. New Insights into its History and Interaction, earlier suggested here.
And we also still need at least one Jewish lectionary, but again preferably several, reflecting various traditions.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
And we also still need at least one Jewish lectionary, but again preferably several, reflecting various traditions.
The lectionary material that I have pulled together has both the 1 and 3 year cycle. It also separates Ashkenazim, Shepardic, Italian and Yemeni traditions. I don't know the form in which it will ultimately be released. I have not tracked down the use of psalms although with 4 siddurs I ought to be able to figure it out. [:)]
I have not succeeded in getting a full Messianic lectionary - I have several for particular years but even with direct contact with the churches/synagogues I have not been able to obtain full year-independent lectionaries.
Yes to your suggestions - I like Donin very much but have not seen the other two.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Also:
- Jeremiah Greenberg: Messianic Shabbat Siddur
George Haven
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MJ. Smith said:
The lectionary material that I have pulled together
I knew (of course) that you've been working on this; I just figured an extra poke in Logos' ribs wouldn't hurt. [:D] I really hope they will make it all available before next Rosh Hashanah.
MJ. Smith said:I have not tracked down the use of psalms although with 4 siddurs I ought to be able to figure it out. [:)]
One of the things I'd like to look at some day, would be to see if there are any connections between the Jewish and the Catholic use of Psalms. Though I guess there are probably already books and articles written about it somewhere.
MJ. Smith said:I like Donin very much but have not seen the other two
I found Donin in a Jerusalem bookshop, borrowed it from a library here, read a couple of chapters, and decided it was too good not to own myself, so I bought it instead. Manns is probably very hard to find outside of Jerusalem. It's published by the Franciscans there and sold in their bookshop (at half the price of that used copy at Amazon). I bought it on recommendation from a Swede who bought it when he was spending a term at l'École Biblique, but I haven't really had time to read it yet. The third, I haven't seen either; I just found it when I was researching Brill books ang thought it looked very interesting.
I figured they would make up a good mix: one book on Jewish prayer today, one on Jewish prayer at the time that most interests most Logos users, and one on how Jewish and Christian prayer have influenced each other. Though I guess maybe there should be one comparing different Jewish traditions as well.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Ismar Elbogen, Jewish Liturgy; A Comprehensive History, Jewish Publication Society 1993 (published in German in 1913).
I had to read this book at university for a course in Jewish liturgy.
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Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:
Ismar Elbogen, Jewish Liturgy; A Comprehensive History, Jewish Publication Society 1993
Seems to require a fair amount of Hebrew, which makes the market a lot smaller. For the average layperson, this is not exactly an easy read:
Looks to me (and the Amazon reviewer) like Donin is much more suitable as an introduction.
But if we just get the basics covered first, I'm quite happy to support this one as well afterwards.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:MJ. Smith said:
I have not tracked down the use of psalms although with 4 siddurs I ought to be able to figure it out.
One of the things I'd like to look at some day, would be to see if there are any connections between the Jewish and the Catholic use of Psalms. Though I guess there are probably already books and articles written about it somewhere.
The Yemeni Jewish psalm tones are considered by musicologists to be the oldest of the Jewish psalm tone. There is evidence that some Gregorian psalm tones derive from the Jewish tones. The cd The Sacred Bridge has a track that moves from the Yemeni to the Gregorian tone. One notices the change in language (Hebrew to Latin) and nothing more.
The Search for the Origins of Christian Worship: Sources and Methods for the Study of Early Liturgy
by Paul F. Bradshaw has a bit on the current views of Jewish-Christian worship ties. I'll admit to being fond of most of Bradshaw's work.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
There is evidence that some Gregorian psalm tones derive from the Jewish tones.
Very interesting, but I'm afraid I'm completely unmusical (?). I was thinking more about things like what weekday/holy day/season/time of day various Psalms are used for.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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MJ. Smith said:
The cd The Sacred Bridge
Ah, this one. Somehow I didn't think the one I found on iTunes was quite the right one.
MJ. Smith said:has a track that moves from the Yemeni to the Gregorian tone. One notices the change in language (Hebrew to Latin) and nothing more.
Couldn't find that track online, but I did manage to find a video with the Ps 137 one. You're right, it sounds quite Gregorian. I've never thought of modern Oriental music as in any way related to Gregorian chant, but here you could hear the common roots.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
Hayim Halevy Donin: To Pray as a Jew. A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service,
I am currently reading this book in hardback and found it quite fascinating. I was about to post a new suggestion for this paricular book and discovered fgh had already mentioned it., so I just moved my post over here.
I know we have this book already in Logos: Praying Like the Jew, Jesus: Recovering the Ancient Roots of New Testament Prayer by Timothy Paul Jones
I would like to suggest this book: To Pray As A Jew: A Guide To The Prayer Book And The Synagogue Service
Check out the detailed table of contents using Amazon's "look inside" feature. This book is an easy to read yet comprehensive introduction to every detail of Jewish prayer life in the Synagogue. The benefit of having this in our Logos library (or at least in Vyrso) would be great. The cultural interpretation of scripturally based prayer practices would be complementary to An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible by Dr. Jim Rosscup
teaser: This book taught me how Jews demonstrate the flutter of angel's wings when they pray! [:O] Curious now, aren't you?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
teaser: This book taught me how Jews demonstrate the flutter of angel's wings when they pray!
Curious now, aren't you? I assume you're referring to schuckleing. ("Look that up in your Funk & Wagnall's"—old Rowen and Martin expression).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Searching Logos.com for jew pray found a couple complementary resources: http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=jew+pray
=> Praying Like the Jew, Jesus: Recovering the Ancient Roots of New Testament Prayer
=> The Shema: Spirituality and Law in Judaism
fgh said:We also need books on Jewish prayer. Unless someone more knowledgeable has better ideas, I suggest
- Hayim Halevy Donin: To Pray as a Jew. A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service,
- Frédéric Manns: Jewish Prayer in the Time of Jesus, and
- Clemens Leonhard & Albert Gerhards: Jewish and Christian Liturgy and Worship. New Insights into its History and Interaction, earlier suggested here.
[Y]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Glad to see this thread revived, as I still want these very much.
I hope you've noticed there's now a Siddur in the Files forum. Only English, though.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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George Somsel said:
I assume you're referring to schuckleing.Super Tramp said:teaser: This book taught me how Jews demonstrate the flutter of angel's wings when they pray!
Curious now, aren't you? Yes, but I also have the scripture from Isaiah that Rabbi Donin said it is based on. [:D]
edit: found interesting website with "Reform Shuckle" context: DavidSaysThings
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:
The Yemeni Jewish psalm tones are considered by musicologists to be the oldest of the Jewish psalm tone. There is evidence that some Gregorian psalm tones derive from the Jewish tones. The cd The Sacred Bridge has a track that moves from the Yemeni to the Gregorian tone. One notices the change in language (Hebrew to Latin) and nothing more.
I thought about this post when I just read a report from the Armenian Maundy Thursday service in Jerusalem:
"The 50-minute sublime and solemn service began with a baritone male choir chanting that for this reporter at times resembled Ashkenazi cantorial music, Gregorian chants and the muezzin's call to prayer."
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Nusach Eretz Yisrael, a recent attempt at reconstructing the nusach of Eretz Yisrael in the Talmudic/Geonic period by Machon Shilo's Rabbi David Bar-Hayim. This reconstruction is based on the Jerusalem Talmud and documents discovered in the Cairo Genizah, and is published in the form of a siddur by Yair Shaki. Rabbi Bar-Hayim's Jerusalem followers use this nusach in a public prayer service held in Machon Shilo's synagogue.
This is a must read! http://opensiddur.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Nuschaot-Tree-2.3.5.png0 -
bump.... progress?
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The ArtScroll app for iOS / Android is pretty nice for this. FL could do it better, if they would. English/Hebrew side-by-side with commentary underneath. Same with their Tanach and Tehillim, etc.
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Randy W. Sims said:
BUMP 🤜🏻
+1
I hope there are people at FL who are as dedicated to improving resource availability in Logos, as the developers are in improving program functionality!
A siddur within Logos is more useful than one apart from Logos. Thank you!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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