Christian Hebrew Movement

HELP!!!

I am being bombarded with the rising religion called the Christian Hebrew Movement. I need good reliable resources to refute their teaching..I am not trying to hang anyone I just want to teach and protect my small flock.

Can you suggest a good book list that will help me?

Thanks

Lynwood

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Rosie Perera

I think what you're referring to is also called Messianic Judaism. Logos produces many resources published by Messianic Jews. They are people of Jewish descent who recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. Be careful asking for resources to "refute the teaching" of a branch of believers who see themselves as Christian, as you're bound to cause controversy here on the forums. Also, if you don't know enough about a movement to refute it yourself, then how do you know there might not be something of value in it? It's best to let people with different beliefs than your own speak for themselves so that you understand what they really believe, not a caricature of it written by people who just want to trash it. Poke around through the resources published by Messianic Jewish Publishers for Logos.

"Protecting" your small flock by preventing them from meeting any Christian Hebrew people and understanding what joy they have found in Jesus as their Messiah might be a very sad thing indeed, and it might keep them small, as in small-minded.

If I'm mistaken, and what you're talking about is something different, then perhaps it's Christians who don't have Jewish background but who are wanting to understand more about and celebrate the Jewish/Hebrew roots of Christianity. In that case, you might want to consider the Jewish Origins of Christianity Collection (currently in pre-pub).

Erik

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640677#Comment_640677

I don't think he is asking about Messianic Judaism, but rather the Hebrew Roots Movement: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html

The Hebrew Roots Movement is indeed heretical. As you've mentioned however, the Messianic Judaism movement is generally biblically sound and I have several friends from my days in a Jewish fraternity in college that have embraced it.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640677#Comment_640677

I consider myself to be a Messianic Jew, and, for the most part, that's really not an issue. I've tried to get a handle on Hebrew Roots, but it's like wrestling with an octopus covered with snake oil. Lots of esoteric extra-biblical stuff and very poor exegesis when the Bible is used. Jews for Jesus has openly warned against it.

Suffice it to say that you follow what Paul did in Galatians and Colossians. You are dealing with another gospel for itching ears. Very cult like and they want nothing to do with any Christian or Jewish denomination.

FWIW I attended one publicized gathering over a two day period and it was absolutely awful. Not once was the gospel ever even presented.

Lynwood E. Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640677#Comment_640677

Thanks for your reply to my request, but you are missunderstanding the request. Thanks any way.

Lynwood

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640706#Comment_640706

Thanks for your reply to my request, but you are missunderstanding the request.

Perhaps you could clarify your request in other words.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640723#Comment_640723

Is this what you are referring to Lynwood?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christian_movement

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640706#Comment_640706

Thanks for your reply to my request, but you are missunderstanding the request. Thanks any way.

Then is it the Hebrew Roots Movement that Erik provided a link to?

Please provide us a link or something so that we can know what you're talking about for sure and respond accordingly.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640758#Comment_640758

Also worth pointing out that the "Hebrew Roots Movement" as a specific theological group - should be distinguished from a general enquiry into Hebrew roots (cultural, theological, linguistic etc.)

The first may be fringe or beyond orthodoxy, however the other is a slightly emphasised form of OT and NT background research. Possibly with an additional practical exploration of feasts and theological methodologies of biblical and historic Judaism (which are different by the way!)

Blessings Kevin

p.s. but yes you do need to ask your question more clearly if you can.

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640793#Comment_640793

Just a guess but I would not be surprised if the OP is referring to/wondering about this rather colorful character ...

http://aroodawakening.tv/hebrew-roots-television/shabbat-night-live/

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640918#Comment_640918

http://aroodawakening.tv/hebrew-roots-television/shabbat-night-live/

Definitely part of the roots breed. We still don't know what the OP is referring to, so speculation aside, let's hope we hear from him.

Will Scholten

I need good reliable resources to refute their teaching.

The most reliable resourse is the Bible, to refute any false teaching!

Erik

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640726#Comment_640726

Is this what you are referring to Lynwood?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christian_movement

Apparently there are a few subgroups within the Hebrew Roots Movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots

Maybe he means the Christian Hebrew Roots subgroup that requires adherence to the Torah and not the oral law of the scribes.

Either way, I don't see how either can be squared exegetically in Scripture.

gralan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640687#Comment_640687

mab__ the voice of one who checked that tree for fruit.

The thickets are full of folks who use poor hermeneutics, or think such is a cultic name for the Munster's band in the 60s TV show. :-P

If discernment and proper knowledge of Scripture came supernaturally upon every believer, why do we need teachers, witnesses and even fellow believers as he designed us to function, etc? What is the value of reading Holy Spirit equipped authors and sermons, etc? Why are we at logos.com?

I'm thankful to have good resources, esp. when the body of Yeshua is great at discipline tradition&opinion, yet his command was to make disciples of himself. A dear brother is a Messianic Jew, which you know is a label used even for those who do not think Jesus is the Messiah. My brother David Russell is a fellow brother in the Lord, BTW. Thanks be to God.

I'm not sure what the OP wants, but I was informed by your post. I looked up some info but w/o more from the OP I am unable to comment more than has already. May the grace of God be upon you and yours, and to all whose shadow falls across your threshold as we pitch our tents in this world just as Our Master did.

Tes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641004#Comment_641004

I need good reliable resources to refute their teaching.

The most reliable resourse is the Bible, to refute any false teaching!

Very true.

Will Scholten

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641055#Comment_641055

"Either way, I don't see how either can be squared exegetically in Scripture."

I've been doing a in depth Bible only study on why I/we believe what I/we believe, I think you will be in for a big surprise.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641328#Comment_641328

Which was the more difficult proposition? What or why?

Dale Brueggemann

This movement is not at all the same as Messianic Judaism, although I suppose there may be some Messianic Jews who get into this "back to our Hebrew roots" idea. Sometime back when it was working its way into church circles that I was familiar with, I wrote a pamphlet addressing it, which you can get here. - http://www.bible-resources.org/dox/Hebrew%20roots%20of%20Xty.pdf

Dale

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641400#Comment_641400

This movement is not at all the same as Messianic Judaism, although I suppose there may be some Messianic Jews who get into this "back to our Hebrew roots" idea. Sometime back when it was working its way into church circles that I was familiar with, I wrote a pamphlet addressing it, which you can get here. - http://www.bible-resources.org/dox/Hebrew%20roots%20of%20Xty.pdf

Dale

Dale

I downloaded your pamphlet and will have a good look at it. Thanks for that.

The real problem with all this roots stuff is that it's adversarial with the body of Messiah and fosters the Lone Ranger "teachers" who brandish their craft in the tradition of Korah. Very sad.

Dale Brueggemann

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641423#Comment_641423

My chief concern with the "back to our Hebrew roots" movement is that it looks like a potential repeat of the Galatian heresy.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641400#Comment_641400

Thanks Dale for this resource.

Will Scholten

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/641643#Comment_641643

Dale, I think the Galatian heresy will be a drop in the bucket, compared to what is coming.

I have been in the church my whole life, why didn't we hear about the 4 "blood moons" going on, two in 2014 and two in 2015. We are having 4 blood moons, and in each year they come on "Passover" and the First Day of "Tabernacles/Sukkot". Is this just a coincidence?

Check out this article in the "World Watch Daily International News"

http://watch.org/showart.php3?idx=104119

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642526#Comment_642526

We are having 4 blood moons, and in each year they come on "Passover" and the First Day of "Tabernacles/Sukkot". Is this just a coincidence?

Blood moons (total lunar eclipses) by definition happen only when there is a full moon. Passover and Tabernacles/Sukkot also by definition always begin on full moons. So no, this isn't a coincidence, but neither does it mean anything particularly special. It would be like saying "Wow! Did you realize that New Year's Day fell on the first of January this year? Wow! What does that mean?!!" That's the definition of New Year's Day, so of course it fell on January 1. Similarly with Passover and Sukkot. We have full moons every 28 days. Passover and Sukkot are defined to always fall on a full moon. We have total lunar eclipses in predictable cycles, and every so often they come in pairs and tetrads, also in a regular cycle. Some years of that regular cycle they will happen on the full moon that begins Passover and Sukkot. Big deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_cycle#Eclipse_cycles

Of all the years this has happened in a regular repeated cycle, only three times has there happened to be some big news in Jewish History. But then again when hasn't there been some big news in Jewish History?

Look at all the lunar tetrads there have been in history and are expected to be in the future. Way more of these did not happen to come at some time of importance in Israel than did.

From NASA's table, here are all the dates of lunar tetrads from the 15th century to our century.

1428 - 1429
1457 - 1458
1475 - 1476
1493 - 1494

1504 - 1505
1515 - 1516
1522 - 1523
1533 - 1534
1562 - 1563
1580 - 1581

No lunar tetrads in 17th-19th centuries. These gaps also appear on a regular predictive cycle every five centuries, so nothing to write home about.

1909 - 1910
1927 - 1928
1949 - 1950
1967 - 1968
1985 - 1986

2003 - 2004
2014 - 2015
2032 - 2033
2043 - 2044
2050 - 2051
2061 - 2062
2072 - 2073
2090 - 2091

Note that 1492 and 1948 are only close to one of those date ranges, and of those "important" dates in Jewish history, only 1967 was during a lunar tetrad, so the prophetic folks at World Watch Daily have twisted the facts to suit their predictive needs. I call it bogosity.

Will Scholten

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642545#Comment_642545

Rosie

"Blood moons (total lunar eclipses) by definition happen only when there is a full moon. Passover and Tabernacles/Sukkot also by definition always begin on full moons. So no, this isn't a coincidence, but neither does it mean anything particularly special. It would be like saying "Wow! Did you realize that New Year's Day fell on the first of January this year? Wow! What does that mean?!!" That's the definition of New Year's Day, so of course it fell on January 1. Similarly with Passover and Sukkot. We have full moons every 28 days. Passover and Sukkot are defined to always fall on a full moon. We have total lunar eclipses in predictable cycles, and every so often they come in pairs and tetrads, also in a regular cycle. Some years of that regular cycle they will happen on the full moon that begins Passover and Sukkot. Big deal."

January 1 is man made, not even the Creators New Year. However the Creator set the world into motion, and we are to look into the skies for signs:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night.

The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 1:14–16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Freedom From Human Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The New International Version. (2011). (Col 2:16–17). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

The New International Version. (2011). (Zec 14:16–19). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Zec. has not hapened yet, Tabernacles is mentioned 3 times in 4 verses, I think it must be important. Plus the lights tell us when it is , so we know when it is, Awesome!

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642656#Comment_642656

Way off topic now. I think blood moons deserve a full-blooded discussion over at christiandiscourse.com

Alex Scott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642658#Comment_642658

I think blood moons deserve a full-blooded discussion over at christiandiscourse.com

You've GOT to be kidding!!!

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642735#Comment_642735

I think blood moons deserve a full-blooded discussion over at christiandiscourse.com

You've GOT to be kidding!!!

Better there than here.

Dale Brueggemann

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642545#Comment_642545

Like that response

David Paul

This thread is a mixture (and God hates a mixture!!) of being humorous, appalling, and sad. For what it's worth, the parenthetical comment is an inside joke..."Hebroots" types love to toss around this comment...because it's true. But, (and this is the kind of key element that is constantly being overlooked by exegesis practitioners of nearly every stripe), it is only true WHEN it's true...and it isn't true always. If only...if only bad exegesis was the exception rather than the rule among those who read and claim to adhere to the Bible.

The problem with Messianic Christianity is of a similar sort as the problem of Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is too much like Judaism and Messianic Christianity is too much like Christianity. Neither is accurately Messianic for precisely these reasons. That being said, Messianic Christianity is nevertheless, in spite of its short-comings, in a much better position than most other Christian "isms". But better is not the same thing as "good". In fact, those close to being right often have the hardest time recognizing that they still have changes to make.

The Hebrew Roots Movement is indeed heretical. As you've mentioned however, the Messianic Judaism movement is generally biblically sound and I have several friends from my days in a Jewish fraternity in college that have embraced it.

Is this comment humorous, appalling, or sad? Yes...but I won't bother saying why.

Thanks for your reply to my request, but you are missunderstanding the request.

As others have pointed out, you could always restate what you mean and explain what you are looking for. Also, it wouldn't hurt to consider the possibility that you are the one who is endangering "your" small flock.

I need good reliable resources to refute their teaching.

The most reliable resourse is the Bible, to refute any false teaching!

Excellent point, Will. Also, it helps immensely if one does not assume that one's own perspective is the best gauge of correctness.

We are having 4 blood moons, and in each year they come on "Passover" and the First Day of "Tabernacles/Sukkot". Is this just a coincidence?

Blood moons (total lunar eclipses) by definition happen only when there is a full moon. Passover and Tabernacles/Sukkot also by definition always begin on full moons. So no, this isn't a coincidence, but neither does it mean anything particularly special. It would be like saying "Wow! Did you realize that New Year's Day fell on the first of January this year? Wow! What does that mean?!!" That's the definition of New Year's Day, so of course it fell on January 1. Similarly with Passover and Sukkot. We have full moons every 28 days. Passover and Sukkot are defined to always fall on a full moon. We have total lunar eclipses in predictable cycles, and every so often they come in pairs and tetrads, also in a regular cycle. Some years of that regular cycle they will happen on the full moon that begins Passover and Sukkot. Big deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_cycle#Eclipse_cycles

Of all the years this has happened in a regular repeated cycle, only three times has there happened to be some big news in Jewish History. But then again when hasn't there been some big news in Jewish History?

Look at all the lunar tetrads there have been in history and are expected to be in the future. Way more of these did not happen to come at some time of importance in Israel than did.

From NASA's table, here are all the dates of lunar tetrads from the 15th century to our century.

1428 - 1429
1457 - 1458
1475 - 1476
1493 - 1494

1504 - 1505
1515 - 1516
1522 - 1523
1533 - 1534
1562 - 1563
1580 - 1581

No lunar tetrads in 17th-19th centuries. These gaps also appear on a regular predictive cycle every five centuries, so nothing to write home about.

1909 - 1910
1927 - 1928
1949 - 1950
1967 - 1968
1985 - 1986

2003 - 2004
2014 - 2015
2032 - 2033
2043 - 2044
2050 - 2051
2061 - 2062
2072 - 2073
2090 - 2091

Note that 1492 and 1948 are only close to one of those date ranges, and of those "important" dates in Jewish history, only 1967 was during a lunar tetrad, so the prophetic folks at World Watch Daily have twisted the facts to suit their predictive needs. I call it bogosity.

Rosie makes a valid point, Will...though a slight adjustment is needed. It isn't the full moon that defines the occurrence of Pesahh and Suukhkohtth, but the new moon that determines the beginning of the month. Since Passover and Tabernacles are on the 14th day and 15th day respectively, they fall by necessity at the time of full moons, give or take a day. It isn't a "chance coincidence" that these days & events coincide, it is "definitional coincidence". Due to the vagaries of the Biblical observation calendar, the full moon may not always occur exactly on Passover or Tabernacles (which, as I pointed out above, occur on different days), though they will always be quite close. Of course, one must consider all of the pertinent aspects of the change from the original Biblical "observation" calendar to the rabbinical AD365 Hillel "calculation" calendar, but no need to get into all that here.

While World Watch Daily and many others besides are guilty of erroneously overselling this astronomical "blood moon" event, any Messianic worth his salt should know that this tetrad means nothing prophetically. Next year will pass without even a hiccup.

This movement is not at all the same as Messianic Judaism, although I suppose there may be some Messianic Jews who get into this "back to our Hebrew roots" idea. Sometime back when it was working its way into church circles that I was familiar with, I wrote a pamphlet addressing it, which you can get here. - http://www.bible-resources.org/dox/Hebrew%20roots%20of%20Xty.pdf

There is a problem with your perspective, Dale...well, rather there is a problem with your summation of the issues that you address in your paper. Specifically, you say "The operative principles for understanding material in the Old Testament that foreshadows the work of Christ...[are that]...In Christ the shadows have passed away in the light of fulfillment--and there's no returning to shadow land." This summation simply is not true. One of the biggest theological fumbles common to Christianity is assuming that Yeishuu`a's statement--"It is finished."--was the end of His work. It most certainly was not. If it were so, then He isn't ever coming back. The whole thrust of YHWH's plan as revealed in the moh`adhiym is that the spring holy days are separated from the fall holy days due to the difference regarding the time of their fulfillment. THE FALL DAYS HAVE NOT BEEN FULFILLED, while the spring days were during the first advent. This, by the way, is the biggest flaw in SDA theology. But you and all Christians should know this. Why? Look around you. See the shadows practically everywhere your eye falls? They won't come to an end until they are finally chased away by the all-pervasive light of the Father when He inhabits New Jerusalem. Until then, shadows do and will continue to have their place.

Christian comprehension of prophecy has never had enough juice to even move the needle from empty, much less have enough to get the job done regarding understanding what YHWH is doing. That stark fact is actually prophesied. Doesn't constrain the will to make proclamations, though.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/642940#Comment_642940

Whew! David, thanks for getting the forum back on track. What with ChristianDiscourse always a threat to good old fashioned confusion, pinpointing where the guage on real insight is, is always refreshing. (I'm just waiting to see if Steve Runge actually filled in the blanks on the OT Hebrew Discourse package .... 1 hour and 20 minutes to go).

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/643021#Comment_643021

LOL...I am only here to serve. [:P]

[A]