Quality and Update Cycles Beyond Logos 6
I appreciate all the feedback about quality of both code and data in recent forum threads. You are right, and we are working on it.
We've been through many major release cycles, and every one involves a very similar pattern:
0. Faithlife teams secretly works on new product with previously un-imagined features and data sets we invented. We quietly test ideas on each other and some customers, and come up with a plan and release date. The release date is chosen long in advance and (now that we're big and complicated) becomes set in stone, because hundreds of people, data, licenses, contracts, vacation schedules, baby births, and big-budget expenses are all coordinated against it.
The team works super-hard, has to cut some favored features and content, and sometimes has to choose to ship something incomplete for future delivery (new Atlas maps) or to cut the feature, because the date is set. The team also has to build many features in an environment with limited user-feedback. Sometimes the data set is being shaped by the act of creating it (cultural concepts) -- some of these things are so new we don't know what they'll be like and how they'll work when we're done.
1. The surprise release on the set date.
2(a). Joy, enthusiasm, excitement over new features (25% of regular users).
2(b). We hear that "I never buy point-zero releases -- they're always buggy" and "it's too soon -- I can't afford an upgrade yet" and others are just not paying attention / are in no hurry. (75% of regular users.)
[update with fixes and improvements ships]
3. Another 25% start upgrading while the first 25% send in 'bug reports'. Many of these are good, useful, and 'real bugs'. Some are clearly our fault (bad coding, rushed release, inattentive editing). Others are good, useful, 'real bugs', and the fault of the latest Microsoft / Apple OS release. (Too often our release coincides with one of theirs. Probably because we all like the same pre-Christmas release dates.) Others are good, useful feedback that isn't really a bug, it's a misunderstanding of scope or intention. This feedback helps us improve descriptions, documentation, or even change a feature or data set.
[update with fixes and improvements ships]
4. Strategic-disagreement ensues. :-) "Why would you release something so buggy / unfinished / poorly-document / unexplained / not-what-I-expected-at-this-moment." [tiny fix ships] "You should have waited a year till it was right." [tiny fix ships] "I don't want an upgrade every two years, I want an upgrade every three / four / ten years." [tiny fix ships]
5. Bigger update (the 'point-one' release) ships. Much happiness from many users. More users upgrade.
6. GOTO 4 (and repeat for years until next release).
<smile>
Releases follow a cycle. After a major release like Logos 6, the cycle turns from 'create new things, think bold ideas, and ship them!' to 'fix bugs, respond to complaints, address pain points, improve performance, re-tag the book that nobody paid attention to until the new bundle included it or a new feature made it more prominent', etc.
So the good news is, we're in the maintenance phase now. We've had multiple meetings and internal email threads, and performance, bug fixes, interface improvements, documentation, and resource maintenance (re-tagging with new data types, label markup, data sets, etc.) are top priorities.
Logos 6 has been out for less than 90 days, and we've had many service releases and improvements, and Logos 6.1 went into beta today. (https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.1_Beta_1)
Everything is getting more complicated. Sometimes a bug is a bug. Sometimes a bug is a financial or logistical constraint that forces a difficult choice.
Examples:
- We implemented a new Atlas for Logos 6. It works differently and offers different value than the previous implementation, which we largely left in place. We planned it, wrote the code, and wrote the marketing copy over many months, while the maps (250 planned) were slowly created in parallel. There was a lot of prep work on the system, the process, and the background maps that are beneath every thematic map. We couldn't make any thematic maps until the background was right, and that took a lot longer than anticipated (lots of reasons), and we realized we wouldn't have all the maps done by the release date. Question: Do we ship what we have, knowing we can ship new maps at a rate of several a week (roughly) until they're all delivered, or do we pull the feature and just not have a new Atlas feature in Logos 6? It would actually take more work to reverse the new Atlas, change the marketing, etc., but we probably would sell just as many upgrades / earn as much revenue without this one feature.... We decided to ship it and deliver more maps after release. (That's ongoing.) Is this a bug, or a feature we're delivering over time that you're glad to have when it's ready? Or should we have stopped the whole process and delayed launch by a few months to let Atlas catch up?
- LCV, Cultural Concepts (and other data sets) involve manually reading books in our system and tagging them with a new ontology of our own design. We rank books by number of users and importance as key reference works, and then we come up with a list of X books to tag in the first release, and then a budget of how much time (=money) to allocate to continuing down the priority list in future years, even though there's no (direct) new revenue to updating those old books. We have 45,000 books; LCV is on dozens, and Cultural Concepts is on about two dozen of four-dozen key books we have identified. (Though it could arguably be useful on even more.) Question: Is it a bug that Cultural Concepts aren't applied to Pliny's Letters yet? Should we have held the data set for a future release? We decided to ship with the books that were tagged, and to establish a budget for ongoing tagging that works down the priority list, and we insert books into that list based on user feedback.
- Publishers send pre-made EPUB books to us for Vyrso. We never touch a physical book, there are often no page numbers in these EPUBs, and many sell 0 or 1 units per year, on which we make as little as one dollar. We can't afford to page number these texts. Question: Should we not sell them? ('Not high enough quality!') We decided to offer them because many people want the content, and we want to let them get that one book they need in a Logos-compatible format. But we label it an 'Ebook Edition' to distinguish it from our higher-quality 'Logos Edition'.
We can't make everyone happy. Somebody wants the newest stuff now, whatever shape it's in. Somebody doesn't care about Pliny's Letters, and finds Cultural Concepts tagging useful even if only applied to the Bible. Someone else doesn't want anything until it's rock solid, bug-free, and comprehensive. Someone else doesn't want a single tag applied to the Bible or a database including Bible references unless every book in every Christian canon in all of church history is included on equal footing. :-)
Our planned solution.
1. More communication. (It seems like that's the solution to most problems...)
A. Our Content Production team allocates 15% of their effort to maintenance on existing resources. This year it turns out it was more like 12%, with all the work on Logos 6 material. They'll get it back to 15%, and we'll go as high as 20% if it's necessary to keep you (collectively) happy. (Beyond 20%, for just revising things we already shipped and sold, feels like it might be financially difficult for us.) The team is also planning to post more often, and to be clearer about what they're doing, so all their hard word doesn't just silently download in the night.
B. Our Content Innovation department is working on better documentation of our data sets. We plan to add a Library entry for each data set, even if it's an 'invisible' data set that's exposed through features or other resource panels. This will give us a place to provide an Information Pane on the data set, and we'll explain how we created it, who created it, the process, and discuss strengths/weaknesses, as appropriate. We're looking into ways to share 'what's been tagged, and what's next' priority lists, too.
2. Shorter cycles. (This is the new part.)
We're not going to retreat to three or four year release cycles. We believe it's a false conceit that simply taking more time will fix everything. Some quality issues don't show up until thousands of people test thousands of combinations of hardware, network connection, and other software installs. Some quality issues are differences of opinion, and we need to hear the other opinions to know a change needs to be made.
In a world where the iPhone is updated annually and that feels (to some of us) like not often enough, where Google Chrome silently updates every six weeks, and where Facebook and other web sites change behavior, layout, and functionality every single day, it's just weird for an increasingly-connected product to go three years without any significant changes.
A shorter cycle means new ideas get feedback faster. A shorter cycle means bad ideas don't waste as many resources before being abandoned. And a shorter cycle lets us serve everyone. If you don't like shorter cycles, you can just skip them. Make your own 'long cycle' by opting out of the short-cycle offering for one, two, or three years.
This is a conceptual overview, not a product announcement.
It's too early to get bogged down with configuration and pricing details. But I hope I can help with examples, possibilities, and reassurances:
- We're considering subscription content. We license Proclaim by subscription, and offer Pro Media by subscription: each month is just gets better, as we release new content every month. Logos Bible Software could benefit from the same model, especially with our online content and 'never ending' data sets. We could make 10 more Interactives (like Psalms Explorer, Feasts and Sacrifices, etc.) and sit on them for two years until they're 'monetized' in a Logos 7 release. We could create 20 more sets of Teaching Slides and Teaching Videos (deSilva) and included them in that big release. But in reality these are built one at a time, over many months. Wouldn't some users rather subscribe and get new content every month rather than have that new content 'sit in a drawer' for two years, helping no one, waiting for the big bundle release?
- This isn't a money-grab. Don't confuse shorter-cycles, or subscription content, with a money-grab. We aren't trying to get the 'every few years' upgrade revenue from you every month. A shorter cycle will involve a smaller release and it will be priced appropriately. A subscription product goes on indefinitely and would be priced appropriately. Shorter cycles can just lead to 'smoothing' the funding, not necessarily increasing it. And this can be helpful to both the customer and the producer.
- We know some people have workflows that don't adapt to frequent change. Some users have spent a lot of time figuring out how to do their study / sermon-prep, etc. They know what books they use, in what layouts, and exactly what keys to hit and buttons to click, and they may even use cheat-sheets from MP Seminars or other guides they've studied carefully. They don't want things to move and mess them up. We understand this, and intend to support the 'don't move anything for a few years!' users.
- There are renters and there are owners. Some people stream all their music and all their movies. Some people lovingly catalog their audio CDs and buy their favorite movies and shows in boxed sets of DVDs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each model. We get it, and we want to support both models.
- Shorter cycles improve transparency. In a short-cycle model, there won't be years of hidden work. Even if you choose to only upgrade / add-to-your-library every couple years, you'll know what we're doing, what features we've been adding and improving, and what content we have been creating. You'll even be able to speak into that process and make suggestions on what to do and what not to do.
- We know that offline access (on both mobile and laptops) is important. While we will certainly create more features that need online access -- for reasons of logistics (often) and physics (sometimes) -- we know that many of you need offline use of your Bible study tools and we will keep it a top priority.
We know that all of our users are interested in a solid, fast, quality product. And we know that most of them are also interested (enough to pay -- which feeds us!) in new tools and content. It's a perpetual balancing act, and one where we're off balance to someone all the time. I believe that shorter cycles and more communication can help address both, leading to a better product that is even more in tune with what you want. (While still delivering the occasional delightful surprise you didn't know you wanted until you saw it!)
What do you think?
-- Bob
Comments
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Sorry Bob but your post doesn't give me anything to complain about. What fun is that? Seriously, the devil is in the details of documentation, subscription features and transparency. Done right it will work. Done wrong and it will just increase the ratio of whines to praise.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like the sound of all of it (including shorter release cycles) except for the point about subscriptions. The only thing I'd be interested in by subscription would be up to date journals, which I'd then want to purchase licences for later (once they were a few years old)...
Perhaps I've misunderstood though... When you say:
I would say that it doesn't matter to me that I receive content quickly so much as that I can keep it permanently even if I stop paying the subscription. I would choose receiving content slowly in order to keep the content permanently over receiving content quickly, but only being able to access it temporarily, simply because I have so much content that I'm not in a huge hurry to read extra resources. Except journals. I would really like up to date academic journals.Bob Pritchett said:Wouldn't some users rather subscribe and get new content every month rather than have that new content 'sit in a drawer' for two years, helping no one, waiting for the big bundle release?
Also, I think the point about focus on documentation and improving existing resources will make lots of people very happy.
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You can certainly do whatever it is you wish to do. Your company. Just deliver what you charge for. And communicate when you don't. It's not complicated.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bob Pritchett said:
1. More communication. (It seems like that's the solution to most problems...)
More complete documentation is imperative.
- Thank you for the very open forums in which we users may bark.
- Thank you for considering the barking and responding substantively.
- Thank you for producing products which we find useful and can reasonably hope will improve.
- I trust that you are in a position to weigh what is written in these forums against fact. Thank you for the transparency of your responses.
Bob Pritchett said:2. Shorter cycles. (This is the new part.)
As described here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/98979/685108.aspx#685108
This seems hopeful.
Bob Pritchett said:We know that all of our users are interested in a solid, fast, quality product. And we know that most of them are also interested (enough to pay -- which feeds us!) in new tools and content. It's a perpetual balancing act...
I've added emphasis to the above quote.
I'm not sure I understand why it's a balancing act to add innovation without breaking the core functions.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Bob Pritchett said:
A. Our Content Production team allocates 15% of their effort to maintenance on existing resources… The team is also planning to post more often, and to be clearer about what they're doing, so all their hard word doesn't just silently download in the night.
I'd love to see a monthly blog post which said, "Here are the resources we've updated this month", with a brief notes on what's new. That would really help to reinforce some of the extra value we get with Logos resources.
Bob Pritchett said:We're not going to retreat to three or four year release cycles.
I'm glad to hear this (and I'm not surprised). As you say, it's the way the world is going (or has gone).
Bob Pritchett said:Wouldn't some users rather subscribe and get new content every month rather than have that new content 'sit in a drawer' for two years, helping no one, waiting for the big bundle release?
If you're considering a subscription offering and shorter release cycles, please consider implementing three different models:
- Rental — pay $50/month for your base package. You can use the resources so long as you keep paying.
- Lease — pay $200/month for the first 12 months, then $50/month thereafter. After the first year you get to keep everything you have even if you stop paying. It also rewards Logos for producing new content (because if you don't, we'll stop paying).
- Pay-As-You-Go — Pay $2,000 upfront and keep everything. Pay smaller dyamically-priced upgrade fees for new content, whenever you want.
I'd love the lease model. That way, I get the benefit of fixed pricing, but I also keep what I've paid for.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Pritchett said:
What do you think?
-- Bob
Regarding subscriptions: when I'm doing an in-depth project, I'd be interested in being able to pay to open up by categories a wide range of resources that I don't own, such as all journals in Logos, all (non-PD) Bible commentaries, etc., for a month or three, then unsubscribing and closing them up when I'm done. That would be about the extent of my interest; I would have no interest in subscribing to get in-house produced content (sorry, but that's the way it is).
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Rayner said:
I like the sound of all of it (including shorter release cycles) except for the point about subscriptions. The only thing I'd be interested in by subscription would be up to date journals...
... I would choose receiving content slowly in order to keep the content permanently over receiving content quickly, but only being able to access it temporarily, simply because I have so much content that I'm not in a huge hurry to read extra resources. Except journals. I would really like up to date academic journals.
I agree. The only reasons I see wanting a subscription would be to:
1) Have an equivalent within Logos to EBSCO for theological journals;
2) Access expensive specialist resources for a limited time for a paper I'm working on.
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Bob Pritchett said:
You are right, and we are working on it.
I always appreciate your openness and your continually effort to improve. Thank you!
Bob Pritchett said:Everything is getting more complicated.
That seems to be the norm these days for many things. It is easy for someone on the "outside" of any issue offer criticism but not really fully understand the extent of the issue. Thank you for reminding us of this.
Bob Pritchett said:Our planned solution.
1. More communication. (It seems like that's the solution to most problems...)
I agree that communication is at the root of most problems. Thanks for your commitment to improve this.
Bob Pritchett said:2. Shorter cycles...(This is the new part.)
Personally, I like your reasoning for shorter cycles and would prefer this and I like the idea that those who do not like this can opt out.
Bob Pritchett said:We're considering subscription content.
Personally I don't like subscriptions but I know others do and understand the reasoning for this.
Bob Pritchett said:There are renters and there are owners. Some people stream all their music and all their movies. Some people lovingly catalog their audio CDs and buy their favorite movies and shows in boxed sets of DVDs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each model. We get it, and we want to support both models.
I'm glad you recognize this. I'm one of those who prefers to own than rent. Supporting both models is a great way to go.
Bob Pritchett said:we know that many of you need offline use of your Bible study tools and we will keep it a top priority.
Great to hear that this will be a priority moving forward.
Thanks Bob for listening to our feedback. [Y]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bob - I like what I hear. Especially about not forcing us to rent, and the faster product cycle.
I like new features [Y].
Blessings brother.
ALSO, if you need another Alpha or Private Beta Tester
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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At the risk of being branded a contrarian ...
Perhaps bending over backwards to try and develop an ever increasingly complex product via public transparency and consensus is counterproductive. Rather than keeping a wet finger in the forum air and trying to maintain a constant dialog with users, maybe Logos needs to 'Nike-up' and just do it without involving the users so much. I know the concept of constant dialog sounds like a great idea (and it probably was a necessity in the early years when the company and the product were smaller and more fragile), nevertheless, it becomes unwieldy much as pure democracy does with a growing population. You and your managers undoubtedly know the product, the business, the competition, the variables, the limitations, the market, and the possibilities far better and more intimately than any of us could possibly know them, and as a result, you and they are much more qualified to productively fix, refine, and develop the product than trying to crowd-source and dialog everything. Sure, user input will always be of value, and similarly, an occasional note from on high as to which way the product is headed is always appreciated, but, perhaps far less of both is needed than you perceive.
For example, if Logos thinks that a some sort of a subscription model is the way to go, then don't ask, go for it. BTW, the marketplace will let you know quickly, ruthlessly, and more accurately than a few forum voices if you have a winner, Windows 8, or something that just needs more tweaking.
For example, if Logos thinks a regular patch Tuesday, once per month, like clockwork, instead of having crisis-like, internal fire drills trying to fix this or that whine from the forums and then issuing hurried fixes, then don't ask, go for it.
For example, if Logos thinks one or two regularly scheduled reveals per year of major new versions instead of publishing a continual string of public betas, then don't ask, go for it.
Bottom line ... More structure, less Kum-By-Ya.
Just my two cents [mo]
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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That made me laugh. Love the synonymizing of windows 8 and failureJRS said:For example, if Logos thinks that a some sort of a subscription model is the way to go, then don't ask, go for it. BTW, the marketplace will let you know quickly, ruthlessly, and more accurately than a few forum voices if you have a winner, Windows 8, or something that just needs more tweaking.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Yep. Too much kumbaya'ing. That Logos dating game thing would really have hit the spot. My spouse was even curious. Customer input. Nah.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Eventhough I am enjoying with Logos bells and whistles, I would prefer quality features over the quantity. To my fear, it seems to me that Logos core value is quantity over the quality. It would be better to have less things but rock solid than many with flaws
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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JRS said:
...maybe Logos needs to 'Nike-up' and just do it without involving the users so much.
Denise said:That Logos dating game thing would really have hit the spot.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Bob,
I always appreciate it when you draw back the curtain and let us see what is going on behind the scenes at Logos. Unfortunately, it usually happens when someone has gone on a rant based on a off-base assumption about the sinister plans or intentions of Logos.
I have had the joy over the last couple of months in helping and guiding a graduate student buy his first Logos software pkg. One of the key points that I made to him was that you can trust Logos. After spending thousands on 2 Platinum base pkgs, he is very happy and excited.
I also post daily on a FB page devoted to helping Logos Users in my denomination. I post free and great values that I find as well as tips and topics.
Logos users are a diverse group in their interests and where they are in their life. Be sure that you remember the variety of situations that Logos users are in. A variety of solutions (like Mark Barnes outlined) may be necessary. I am now retired, which means I have limited finances. I have been teaching Sunday School for over 45 yrs. Logos has been the best thing that ever happened to my class. I don't know if I will still be teaching when my final volumes of EEC are released, but I bought it anyway because of my confidence in Logos.
Lack of communication has always been one of the weaknesses of Logos. Communication related to the release of L6 was a major improvement over recent releases. I encourage as much communication and transparency as possible.
Shorter cycles seems to be a good idea. As major new parts of the program become available, users should be able to access them in some way. The new features of L6 intrigued me, but I was not able to add a huge amount of resources to my library. I am in the "buy only if I can't live without it" stage. L5 Platinum plus lots of extras (4300 total) makes a good library for me. L6 Gold was the right upgrade move for me.
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I love Logos. But if you go to only subscription, then I'm done. Maybe I'm old school, but I want to keep what I buy.
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In looking at your plan above, I am trying to apply it to the progression of the Journal saga.
It would all make sense, in that I see what you are trying do bringing them in house, increasing their quality and offering them in a greater selection.
But, in the meantime, why stop another project for 2 years that was fulfilling this need (to whatever quality/capacity it was) before Logos' Journals are completed? It would seem that your financials would be increased by the revenue generated; your customers would be satisfied with what they already had; and when you rolled out your final project it would polished.
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Thanks Bob
I appears you have either been reading the forums extensively or had a team that does and reports "up" very effectively. You seem to have addressed nearly all the major issues that have been raised here since launch.
That said "Communication" is clearly the key - and that goes at least two ways.
- We need to communicate with Faithlife - and know we have been heard and understood (even if not agreed with).
- You need to communicate with users (and potential users) - and know you have been heard and understood.
And so these two in cyclic form should work in something like harmony - I know, far easier said than done, as different types of communication require different mechanisms. (documentation, blogs, forums, bug tracking, emails, phone calls etc.)
Anyway every blessing and success to all at Faithlife and their wider family (and families!)
Shalom.
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The subscription model will price me out of being a user. It is a generalization I realize, but it seems that almost every company that tries it alienates many users. Adobe comes to mind. But, they don't have content as much as new features and they pass those features on to users who pay for that model. But, for some users it is just too expensive. I don't need every book that comes out. I like the datasets and neat features. My main complaints are the speed of the software and the speed of the software and the speed of the software - in all phases of use. But, I wish it would work as smoothly as the marketing videos on my machine - which is not a slow machine... And, yes, I have done all of the suggestions... I have added a fast SSD Drive, I have a fast graphics card with lots if video RAM. The increase in speed is more hopeful than noticeable.
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I would support a subscription model that was on a sliding scale.
If I owned half the resources in, say Reformed Gold, then I might rent the other half for half the full rental.
If I decided that I needed the resources in Platinum then I would expect the rental to raise but still get full credit for the bits that I owned.
If I decided that I really wanted to purchase a resource then the rental would need to go down.
It would be a complicated scheme but that, after all, is why you employ programmers.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mark Barnes said:
If you're considering a subscription offering and shorter release cycles, please consider implementing three different models:
- Rental — pay $50/month for your base package. You can use the resources so long as you keep paying.
- Lease — pay $200/month for the first 12 months, then $50/month thereafter. After the first year you get to keep everything you have even if you stop paying. It also rewards Logos for producing new content (because if you don't, we'll stop paying).
- Pay-As-You-Go — Pay $2,000 upfront and keep everything. Pay smaller dyamically-priced upgrade fees for new content, whenever you want.
I'd love the lease model. That way, I get the benefit of fixed pricing, but I also keep what I've paid for.
I like the sound of those options. Yet, I think that another option could be: Pay-as-you-go with subscription for new Faithlife content. That is, once the upfront cost is paid, a monthly subscription allows access to the new datasets etc. which Logos will keep rolling out over time. That would in effect be like purchasing an upgrade (e.g. L7) and paying for later dataset releases (instead of receiving them free at present after the L6 release). Or again, for existing users this could look like a Subscription only option which provides (more frequent?) core crossgrades, as well as new datasets etc. as they are released.
But aside from that, one major point regarding subscription still needs to be clarified: is the subscribed content limited to Faithlife proprietary resources such as datasets, Lexham Press, or public domain resources (e.g. classic commentaries)? Or, can new resources from external publishers be subscribed to (e.g. new releases from Baker Academic, or new NICOT/NT volumes)?
I suspect that when subscriptions are refered to by Bob, they are limited to Faithlife proprietary content. This seems to be the case not only because that 'seems' to be all that is referred to in connection with subscriptions in posts such as Bob's above, but also because I think that it would be difficult to get many external publishers onboard for sales models which leased or rented their products.
Since there is such a wide variety of user purchasing preferences, I suspect that subscriptions (rental/lease) of products from external publishers would either be too generalised to be cost effective (too many resources in a general subscription which a user does not want to pay for), or at the other end of the scale a highly-customised 'subscription' could in practice look little different from monthly payments towards Logos store credit (like monthly payment plans before purchase rather than after purchase).
The point I'm making, or rather the question I'm asking, is whether or not 'subscription' applies only to Logos proprietary content, or (rental or lease/own) resources from other publishers. I would be most interested in the latter.
I suspect that Faithlife will proceed with subscriptions to proprietary content, and hope that other publishers will come on board with this relatively new sales model for digital resources. But I would be (pleasantly) surprised if others came on board quickly too.
EDIT: A subscription to a new or upraged base package would be very attractive if it were a lease/own as in option 3 above (to keep all the content after a certain period of time), with an ongoing subscription to new Faithlife resources.
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David Potete said:
I love Logos. But if you go to only subscription, then I'm done. Maybe I'm old school, but I want to keep what I buy.
Hi, David. We agree. Bob wrote near the bottom of his post that we intend to continue the "old school" keep-what-you-buy model alongside any new approaches we try:
Bob Pritchett said:Some people stream all their music and all their movies. Some people lovingly catalog their audio CDs and buy their favorite movies and shows in boxed sets of DVDs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each model. We get it, and we want to support both models.
So, not going subscription-only any time soon. Hope that helps, thanks!
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The loud clamour in the forums is not just for data set documentation but for comprehensive user manual covering all aspects of the program.Bob Pritchett said:Our Content Innovation department is working on better documentation of our data sets.
Users can also wait two years to adopt the release. (i.e. Upgrade to Logos 6 right before Logos 7 is to be released.) That way the bugs will be worked out.Bob Pritchett said:If you don't like shorter cycles, you can just skip them.
Personally not interested in them but if others are, fine. Just do not go exclusively subscription based. Rentals make sense on journals and MobleEd courses.Bob Pritchett said:We're considering subscription content.
Great.Bob Pritchett said:we know that many of you need offline use of your Bible study tools and we will keep it a top priority.
I love Logos 6 and the new features. I wish it were not at all buggy. I agree you are right to release material and features now and polish them as we go on. My library now has nearly 17,000 resources and there are still lots of resources I want to add. But PLEASE get a Restoration Movement package/bundle together.Bob Pritchett said:What do you think?
Your employees are the best! Your company, Faithlife, is generous. I pray for your family, leadership, and success regularly. I hope that all users will get more satisfaction using all Faithlife's products. Thank you for asking for our input.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Eli Evans said:
Hi, David. We agree. Bob wrote near the bottom of his post that we intend to continue the "old school" keep-what-you-buy model alongside any new approaches we try:
Bob Pritchett said:Some people stream all their music and all their movies. Some people lovingly catalog their audio CDs and buy their favorite movies and shows in boxed sets of DVDs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each model. We get it, and we want to support both models.
So, not going subscription-only any time soon. Hope that helps, thanks!
Reassuring, thanks. Any word on the idea of subscriptions for up to date academic journals?
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Here's a suggestion for a premium rental.
What if every quarter 10% of the base package is replaced? If you're a renter (or a leaser) you get to keep the 'old' 10%, and you also get the new 10%, so your library goes up by several dozen resources every quarter, but your rental price stays the same.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Bob Pritchett said:
A. Our Content Production team allocates 15% of their effort to maintenance on existing resources… The team is also planning to post more often, and to be clearer about what they're doing, so all their hard word doesn't just silently download in the night.
I'd love to see a monthly blog post which said, "Here are the resources we've updated this month", with a brief notes on what's new. That would really help to reinforce some of the extra value we get with Logos resources.
First, Would the forums work for you? Prior to L6 we had a monthly cycle of pushing out updated resources. When L6 hit we changed this to an every-other-week cycle. Now that the fever of L6 is slowing down for you, we will be pulling back to a monthly cycle.
Our plan was to provide a list of all updated resources and how they were updated via the forums.
Second, Why a monthly cycle? It's not a magical number. We simply want to balance responsive turn-around times on updated resources--especially for non-critical but urgent resource updates--while minimizing the frequency users will be asked to download and re-index their library.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
First, Would the forums work for you? Prior to L6 we had a monthly cycle of pushing out updated resources. When L6 hit we changed this to an every-other-week cycle. Now that the fever of L6 is slowing down for you, we will be pulling back to a monthly cycle.
Our plan was to provide a list of all updated resources and how they were updated via the forums.
A blog entry would allow the info to be seen on the Logos application home page. It would be nice if there was some way that info could be transmitted to the app. An update-specific blog would be a simple way to do it.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd's mention of the blog is a good one.
Like a few, I don't see the blog nor the homepage. I do see the forum. But from a corporate perspective, I doubt 'the forum' is that popular (relative to total user population). I'd bet Facebook is a bigger splash (though I don't do Facebook).
An idea I like, but will likely be in the minority, would be a digital monthly magazine automatically downloaded. (That sounds suspiciously like another magazine we know about.) But as much as I carp, I DO wish I knew MORE about Logos ... the software, new resources, special groupings of resources, expertise in Logos itself, and so on.
I still argue that communication is marketing. People actually want to know more. It's their puppy ... they like to feed him.
EDIT: If someone's wondering why a digital magazine vs a blog, the latter in my mind, has to remain broad-based. General interest. But a digital magazine allows for the news of the new set of sumerian inscriptions, or an agreement with a specific pastor. It can be very detailed, and doesn't have to 'fill the space'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Quick practical question with regard to rented or subscribed to content: what happens to linked annotations or clippings when the rental comes to an end or the subscription ends? If I tagged inside a resource that I rented and then stop renting then later buy it, will my tags still be in there?
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Mark Barnes said:
Here's a suggestion for a premium rental.
What if every quarter 10% of the base package is replaced? If you're a renter (or a leaser) you get to keep the 'old' 10%, and you also get the new 10%, so your library goes up by several dozen resources every quarter, but your rental price stays the same.
[Y]
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Thanks Bob for coming on the forums the way you do and being so open and transparent with your customers about what you are doing and the processes you go through to make things happen. I recently upgraded to Logos Six Gold and am liking it a lot. Still trying to learn all the new features though.
As far as input for you on the question of the subscription model I don't think that I would be interested personally but as long as I keep what I have I wouldn't have any objection to it if others were able to use it to their advantage.
I don't think it really matters to me on the frequency of release cycles either. Again as long as what I have still works I can decide whether to go for the new release or skip it and wait for the next one. Not a big deal as far as I can see.
I would echo the concerns of others on the forums that it would be good to have more documentation such as a comprehensive user manual. There is actually quite a bit of info now but it involves skipping around to a lot of different places: forums, help files, WIKI, videos from Logos, videos from users, other vendors etc. I am pretty sure that a lot of users either don't know a lot of this stuff exists or wouldn't know where to find a lot of it. You have indicated though that you are working on this and I think that will be a big step forward.
You have an amazing company and team of employees. Thanks for everything that you are doing.
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Regarding subscriptions, I only see two scenarios where a subscription model would be attractive to this focus group of one:
1. My daughter will be entering Seminary in a couple of years. Depending on resources available, I can see where a subscription model might benefit her during her seminary years.
2. For me, the monthly cost would have to be pretty small to create interest. Netflix comes to mind as current provider with a low monthly threshold.
Other than those situations, I don't see where I would be interested in participating in a subscription model. Again, I realize that this is only a micro focus group and I appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback
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Mark Barnes said:
Here's a suggestion for a premium rental.
What if every quarter 10% of the base package is replaced? If you're a renter (or a leaser) you get to keep the 'old' 10%, and you also get the new 10%, so your library goes up by several dozen resources every quarter, but your rental price stays the same.
I'd rather see a "rent to own" deal. I anticipate that my primary interest in rentals would be for short-term research projects or specific classes. But if a resource were useful enough that I keep subscribing month after month, then that's probably one that I'm eventually going to want to own. Knowing that I have that option would make a rental more attractive.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Wouldn't some users rather subscribe and get new content every month rather than have that new content 'sit in a drawer' for two years, helping no one, waiting for the big bundle release?
Neither option.....
Not quite sure what is meant / implied by this question. Does the word 'rather' suggest an 'either ... or' scenario? Otherwise what is the point of the question? I can't answer 'yes' to this and I can't answer 'no'!
I'm not into subscription and want to own my resources / data-sets etc. However I like to keep up to date with all content / features.
I would hope that if subscription customers get the latest updates "every month" then we non-subscription lovers won't have to wait "two years". I don't mind paying every month if I get to keep what I pay for!
As for the other ideas - liking the sound of communication and shorter release cycles (we might get Logos 10 before 2020 that way!!!)
I also agree that quality over quantity is the way to go!
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Thanks, Bob.
I like the idea of more communication and documentation. I'm fine with shorter release cycles. I have little to no personal interest in subscription content, but can see how it might be of interest to some.
One other area where I'd like you to take action to improve quality: I would like to you to put in place a systematic way to make sure bug reports from the forums do not fall through the cracks.
I have been one of the more prolific bug reporters on the forums, and I've always had the experience that a certain number of my bug reports fall through the cracks if I don't keep track of them and go back to check on those threads to see if someone has responded to them. Just recently, Mark Barnes brought to my attention a bug report of mine from two months ago that had never been seen or responded to by a Faithlife employee. I have long since stopped keeping track (due to lack of time, and frustration, and a "it shouldn't be my responsibility to make sure these don't fall through the cracks"), but bug reports are still falling through the cracks.
A proposal: Treat the forums as a kind of bug database (I remember RAID from Microsoft but I don't know what sort of system you use internally), and track bug reports on it as aggressively as you would an internal bug database.
1. Any thread that contains a bug report gets marked as such somehow (add a new forum feature for this if necessary). The user who posts the thread, or an MVP or Faithlife employee could have access to set that flag, so that we can make sure that the time we post a bug report that it won't fall through the cracks.
2. Assign enough Faithlife employees to regularly keep up with the forums looking for bug-flagged threads, and don't leave any stone unturned. They should also be looking for new posts in general and flagging them as bug reports if the user didn't know to do that when they posted it. MVPs can help with this latter task.
3. Once a bug-thread is acknowledged as being a real bug, an internal case gets created for it (or a link to this thread gets added to an existing case), and a comment placed on the thread to that effect so that the bug reporter knows their bug has been noticed. Note that this is already happening most of the time, but I still think some percentage of bugs (like the one Mark found) are getting overlooked. If it is not actually a bug (e.g., user misunderstood how the feature is supposed to work, or it was a request for a future feature rather than a bug) then a comment to that effect is placed in the thread and the bug-flag is cleared (or set to some other status such as REJECTED). If the bug is a real bug, once it has been entered in the internal bug database, the bug-flag is changed to something else to note that status (e.g., from REPORTED to ACKNOWLEDGED).
4. Once the bug is fixed, a comment is placed in the thread saying what version the bug is fixed in and the bug-flag is cleared or set to a new status (e.g., FIXED).
5. There should be some way to view the list of active bug-threads so that the employees tasked with doing this can see them and make sure they've not missed any REPORTED bugs.
There will need to be some cooperation from users to make this work very smoothly. Good bug reports would make a big difference. A clear subject line that identifies the post as a bug report (prefaced by BUG: and the summary of the bug's unexpected behavior; not snarky comments like some people sometimes put there in the subject line). And ideally only one bug report per thread. If we can educate at least the forum regulars to always adhere to these principles that would help this system work.
I'm sure y'all can refine this idea and make it more workable and more congruous with your internal bug database.
Thanks for considering it.
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Eli Evans said:
So, not going subscription-only any time soon. Hope that helps, thanks!
That means it might still be an option at some point in the future?!
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
First, Would the forums work for you? Prior to L6 we had a monthly cycle of pushing out updated resources. When L6 hit we changed this to an every-other-week cycle. Now that the fever of L6 is slowing down for you, we will be pulling back to a monthly cycle.
They'd work for me, but the blog would get more exposure, and I think it's sufficiently useful and interesting to warrant that wider exposure.
Kyle G. Anderson said:Second, Why a monthly cycle? It's not a magical number. We simply want to balance responsive turn-around times on updated resources--especially for non-critical but urgent resource updates--while minimizing the frequency users will be asked to download and re-index their library.
It doesn't need to be monthly, but I think it should be scheduled. Regular, but unscheduled features tend to get forgotten quite quickly. We should have a Logos Patch Tuesday [:)].
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I like the sound of this. I'm very glad you realize that the subscription model will only appeal to a subset of users, that's very comforting.
Something that hasn't yet been mentioned: a subscription model that regularly rolls out new features, all of which are occasionally bundled up and sold as an upgrade, would probably keep the quality complaints down. If you build 20 new features and release them all at once, people get hit by bugs all at once which leads to perception of lower quality. If those same features are rolled out to at least a subset of users over the course of a year, the de-bugging process will also be more spread out and thus easier on the users.
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I need some explanation: Is the "subscription" model just for the software or resources? Having spent a lot of money on resources, I not interested in renting new resources. (BTW, I understand that I will not "have" to rent..both models will be available.) But, I can't seem to figure out if the subscription is for the software so that like proclaim, releases are more frequent.
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
I need some explanation: Is the "subscription" model just for the software or resources?
Resources.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
I will not support subscription style. Once subscription is implemented, Logos would not be the same again, I guarantee it.
A Movie can be watched once and be done with. Forever.
A Dictionary cannot. Period.
Not only the subscription will effect the regular classic buying style, pricing will be more competitive (read:expensive)
I say TAG all those book properly FIRST, AND FIX the VISUAL COPY feature.
98% of Logos user don't even know how to use collection rules, and you expect regular and new users to subscribe? They'll be disappointed once they find out how poor the tagging on the books.
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mike said:
98% of Logos user don't even know how to use collection rules, and you expect regular and new users to subscribe? They'll be disappointed once they find out how poor the tagging on the books.
Mike - I have to agree with you. Tagging, the 'Headline Feature' in Logos is abysmal outside bibles. Even relatively new publications (I am working my way through Tom Wright's 'Christian Origins Series' this year and it is a case in point) . Hardly any of the references are tagged to either the internal reference points, external resources which I own, or to items in the Logos catalogue.
Bob has said that many of his customers buy one base collection and then never upgrade. I am not surprised - if I had come to Logos via the usual route I would not have persevered past the disappointment of the first book or two.
I can understand older publications lagging behind in the update stakes; but relatively new ones! The Paul book in the Origins series was only published last year - for these books there is no excuse.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Bob Pritchett said:
The team is also planning to post more often, and to be clearer about what they're doing, so all their hard word doesn't just silently download in the night.
Bob, I have noticed that since Logos 6 rolled out I have seen a significant number of Faithlife employees posting in the forums much more often. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate that. For me it really goes a long way towards feeling valued by Faithlife.
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Ryan B said:
Bob, I have noticed that since Logos 6 rolled out I have seen a significant number of Faithlife employees posting in the forums much more often. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate that. For me it really goes a long way towards feeling valued by Faithlife.
Where have you been? As far as I can remember, Logos' employees have been a no show throughout December and first week January. They have forever-vacation-policy. (kinda nice, because they work on project with no really deadlines)
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Bob Pritchett said:
B. Our Content Innovation department is working on better documentation of our data sets.
Bob,
As always, thanks for being open about where things are at and genuinely interested in customer input.
One issue that has gotten significant discussion in the forums since the L6 release but was mostly lacking in your post was documentation. You do mention data set documentation, but that seemed to be it. I'm surprised that the replies to your post thus far haven't pointed this omission out.
Does Faithlife agree with the general consensus (I think that's a fair summary of the opinions - maybe I'm wrong) that documentation on how to use the program's features is inadequate? If so, what are the plans to improve that? If not, why does Faithlife disagree?
A thought I've had that could improve this is to force internal testing to only be based on the documentation that is going to be released with the program. If the testers can't figure out how to use the program, it's a safe bet that the bell curve majority of customers won't be able to either.
Thanks again,
Donnie
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